George Zimmerman makes initial court appearance in Trayvon Martin shooting, will plead not guilty

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L_piperatus said:
“Teaching teenagers a lesson” is absolutely not what I said.
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I never said you did. I quoted you properly. I am the one who added “a lesson”. Delete those two words if you wish.
As to the question of “shouldn’t throwing the first bullet constitute a murder?”, my understanding is that it can be murder, or it can be legitimate self-defense, depending on the circumstances.
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Then do you not also recognize that throwing the first punch is likewise subject to the circumstances and not an automatic indicator of guilt?
 
seekerz said:
So we are assuming this teenager hit somebody? That’s a leap if ever there was one. Of course said teenager can’t speak for himself so we are free to believe anything we hear…:rolleyes:
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So we are putting words into other people’s mouths? :rolleyes: Now THAT’S a leap if ever there was one. Of course when we miss what other people said in reality and when we start to put instead words into other people’s mouths, words that they never said, then we end up accusing people falsely and that’s not so nice. :tsktsk:

Here’s what I said, in the very post you quoted:
L_piperatus said:
In my mind, whoever threw the first punch, is guilty of starting a physical fight. Call it a fight, a physical fight, an altercation, or a physical altercation, it makes no difference. If Martin threw the first punch, he started the fight, and Zimmerman was justified to shoot Martin in self-defense. If, however, Zimmerman threw the first punch, then Zimmerman is guilty.
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I live about 7 miles south of Sanford, Fl. and visit there often (antique shops attract my wife and there is a dandy German restaurant there which is just the ticket for a Saturday afternoon lunch and beer).

Every pundit, priest, pastor and provacatuer from here to Dublin, Ireland has opined about this tragic incident, including the pastor of the local evangelical mega-church who published an opinion column with a muckety muck from the NAACP about the “injustice”.

Let me clearly state the facts.
  1. Trayvon Martin (may he rest in peace) and George Zimmerman had an altercation on a rainy night in February in a public place.
  2. Trayvon Martin (may he rest in peace) was shot and killed during that altercation.
  3. The Sanford Police Department ( a Department familiar with murders, they happen in Sanford with regularity) investigates and turns over finding to Florida State’s Attorney for evaluation.
  4. Death threats are made against Police Chief and his family to the extent the Chief temporarily steps down and sends his family out of state for safety sake.
  5. Governor inserts a Special Prosecutor, rather than leave in the hands of the local State’s Attrorney.
  6. Special Prosecutor eschews Grand Jury and files charge of Second Degree Murder against Zimmerman.
  7. Zimmerman promptly turned himself in to authorities and was booked into jail.
  8. A bali hearing will be held next week (Thursday). The judge has recused herself as her husband is in the same law firm as a CNN comentator named Mark NeJame, Esq.
Now, that is what we, the public, know. We’ve heard altered audio tape of a telephone call between Zimmerman and the 911 operator (yes, altered). That’s all we know. We don’t know whether it was murder or self defense or something in between. We’ve heard inflamatory comments from every pogue on planet earth who don’t know any more than we do, why is that? Is it helpful? fruitful? conciliatory?

Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty. If there was an injustice that will be proven at trial, not on this board and not on CNN and not in the Orlando Sentinel and not in some pastor’s mind in San Francisco or Washington, D.C. It is fruitless to talk about this. And it is less than helpful to incite people to a race war or to march in the street over a percieved injustice. There were 4 black on black shooting in Sanford last week. Anybody heard any pastors propound on those? How about Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton? How about our president?

It’s a mess.
 
Trayvon’s Brother On CNN: Report Of What Happened ‘Doesn’t Sound Like Him At All’

by Josh Feldman | 9:09 pm, April 13th, 2012

mediaite.com/tv/trayvon-martins-brother-on-cnn-report-of-what-happened-doesnt-sound-like-him-at-all/

"We’ve heard from Trayvon Martin‘s parents over the past few weeks, but on CNN tonight, Anderson Cooper turned the spotlight to Jahvaris Fulton, Trayvon’s older brother who has not spoken out as much on his brother’s death at the hands of George Zimmerman. Fulton, currently a college student, said his brother had very high academic aspirations, and loved the idea of going to college ater spending spring break with his brother and touring the campus.

He talked about the first time his brother ever rode a horse, when they were celebrating their mother’s birthday eight days before Martin was fatally shot. On the night in question, Fulton said he noticed several missed calls on his phone from his mother. He recounted the conversation they had when his mother told him the horrible news, saying “I didn’t believe it, and I didn’t understand it either.”

**However, one of the main reasons Fulton decided to start speaking out about it was because the picture people were making of his brother did not sound anything like Trayvon. He said that everything sounded like it was from “Zimmerman’s perspective,” and not his brother’s. **The account that Martin attacked Zimmerman “doesn’t sound like him at all,” according to Fulton. He said that, listening to the tapes, it didn’t sound like his brother was being violent at all.

Fulton said that “there shouldn’t be any more Trayvons” in the future and that no one should be able to kill someone and get away with it. He asked others to remember his brother as “a happy teenager.”"
 
JRRTFAN said:
I live about 7 miles south of Sanford, Fl. and visit there often (antique shops attract my wife and there is a dandy German restaurant there which is just the ticket for a Saturday afternoon lunch and beer).

Every pundit, priest, pastor and provacatuer from here to Dublin, Ireland has opined about this tragic incident, including the pastor of the local evangelical mega-church who published an opinion column with a muckety muck from the NAACP about the “injustice”.

Let me clearly state the facts.
  1. Trayvon Martin (may he rest in peace) and George Zimmerman had an altercation on a rainy night in February in a public place.
  2. Trayvon Martin (may he rest in peace) was shot and killed during that altercation.
  3. The Sanford Police Department ( a Department familiar with murders, they happen in Sanford with regularity) investigates and turns over finding to Florida State’s Attorney for evaluation.
  4. Death threats are made against Police Chief and his family to the extent the Chief temporarily steps down and sends his family out of state for safety sake.
  5. Governor inserts a Special Prosecutor, rather than leave in the hands of the local State’s Attrorney.
  6. Special Prosecutor eschews Grand Jury and files charge of Second Degree Murder against Zimmerman.
  7. Zimmerman promptly turned himself in to authorities and was booked into jail.
  8. A bali hearing will be held next week (Thursday). The judge has recused herself as her husband is in the same law firm as a CNN comentator named Mark NeJame, Esq.
Now, that is what we, the public, know. We’ve heard altered audio tape of a telephone call between Zimmerman and the 911 operator (yes, altered). That’s all we know. We don’t know whether it was murder or self defense or something in between. We’ve heard inflamatory comments from every pogue on planet earth who don’t know any more than we do, why is that? Is it helpful? fruitful? conciliatory?

Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty. If there was an injustice that will be proven at trial, not on this board and not on CNN and not in the Orlando Sentinel and not in some pastor’s mind in San Francisco or Washington, D.C. It is fruitless to talk about this. And it is less than helpful to incite people to a race war or to march in the street over a percieved injustice. There were 4 black on black shooting in Sanford last week. Anybody heard any pastors propound on those? How about Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton? How about our president?

It’s a mess.
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Good post and well thought out. The same people that appeared on the scene and stirred the pot were the same ones that appeared in West Palm in 2008 and stirred the election pot. I know. I was there. I saw it with my own two eyes.
 
JRRTFAN said:
I live about 7 miles south of Sanford, Fl. and visit there often (antique shops attract my wife and there is a dandy German restaurant there which is just the ticket for a Saturday afternoon lunch and beer).

Every pundit, priest, pastor and provacatuer from here to Dublin, Ireland has opined about this tragic incident, including the pastor of the local evangelical mega-church who published an opinion column with a muckety muck from the NAACP about the “injustice”.

Let me clearly state the facts.
  1. Trayvon Martin (may he rest in peace) and George Zimmerman had an altercation on a rainy night in February in a public place.
  2. Trayvon Martin (may he rest in peace) was shot and killed during that altercation.
  3. The Sanford Police Department ( a Department familiar with murders, they happen in Sanford with regularity) investigates and turns over finding to Florida State’s Attorney for evaluation.
  4. Death threats are made against Police Chief and his family to the extent the Chief temporarily steps down and sends his family out of state for safety sake.
  5. Governor inserts a Special Prosecutor, rather than leave in the hands of the local State’s Attrorney.
  6. Special Prosecutor eschews Grand Jury and files charge of Second Degree Murder against Zimmerman.
  7. Zimmerman promptly turned himself in to authorities and was booked into jail.
  8. A bali hearing will be held next week (Thursday). The judge has recused herself as her husband is in the same law firm as a CNN comentator named Mark NeJame, Esq.
Now, that is what we, the public, know. We’ve heard altered audio tape of a telephone call between Zimmerman and the 911 operator (yes, altered). That’s all we know. We don’t know whether it was murder or self defense or something in between. We’ve heard inflamatory comments from every pogue on planet earth who don’t know any more than we do, why is that? Is it helpful? fruitful? conciliatory?

Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty. If there was an injustice that will be proven at trial, not on this board and not on CNN and not in the Orlando Sentinel and not in some pastor’s mind in San Francisco or Washington, D.C. It is fruitless to talk about this. And it is less than helpful to incite people to a race war or to march in the street over a percieved injustice. There were 4 black on black shooting in Sanford last week. Anybody heard any pastors propound on those? How about Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton? How about our president?

It’s a mess.
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It is a mess because you’re obviously slanted in your opinions. How about:
  1. The child killed was found to be unarmed and* nobody took the time* to find and inform his parents immediately.
  2. How about Zimmerman admitted to following said child and to shooting him after calling 911 to report a ‘suspicious’ person?
  3. How about: public pressure was applied to in quite a legitimate manner to achieve the chief’s resignation after law enforcement decided that the investigation didn’t warrant Zimmerman’s arrest? (I have heard nothing of death threats but you might have a source.)
  4. How about more than one neighbor of Zimmerman publicly justifying racial profiling on national TV?..
You might have racial tensions in Sanford, but I’m pretty sure they weren’t started by Sharpton or any outsider. BTW, did your other black-related crime involve unarmed kids doing nothing wrong, being shot to death with no one being held accountable? If so, I think Sanford definitely has a big problem and I don’t need to be from there to figure that out.

Of course, you also failed to add that without all of this ‘stirring up’ of public outrage, the Martins would have been left with just photo albums with their son’s image and NO JUSTICE for his admitted shooter.

I don’t need to be able to find Sanford on a map to know when cheese is rotten…
 
mary_bobo said:
Good post and well thought out. The same people that appeared on the scene and stirred the pot were the same ones that appeared in West Palm in 2008 and stirred the election pot. I know. I was there. I saw it with my own two eyes.
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The people who rose up and demanded justice are the reason Zimmerman is having due process meted out. He should THANK them.
 
**
catharina said:
Trayvon’s Brother On CNN: Report Of What Happened ‘Doesn’t Sound Like Him At All’

by Josh Feldman | 9:09 pm, April 13th, 2012

mediaite.com/tv/trayvon-martins-brother-on-cnn-report-of-what-happened-doesnt-sound-like-him-at-all/

"We’ve heard from Trayvon Martin‘s parents over the past few weeks, but on CNN tonight, Anderson Cooper turned the spotlight to Jahvaris Fulton, Trayvon’s older brother who has not spoken out as much on his brother’s death at the hands of George Zimmerman. Fulton, currently a college student, said his brother had very high academic aspirations, and loved the idea of going to college ater spending spring break with his brother and touring the campus.

He talked about the first time his brother ever rode a horse, when they were celebrating their mother’s birthday eight days before Martin was fatally shot. On the night in question, Fulton said he noticed several missed calls on his phone from his mother. He recounted the conversation they had when his mother told him the horrible news, saying “I didn’t believe it, and I didn’t understand it either.”

**However, one of the main reasons Fulton decided to start speaking out about it was because the picture people were making of his brother did not sound anything like Trayvon. He said that everything sounded like it was from “Zimmerman’s perspective,” and not his brother’s. **The account that Martin attacked Zimmerman “doesn’t sound like him at all,” according to Fulton. He said that, listening to the tapes, it didn’t sound like his brother was being violent at all.

Fulton said that “there shouldn’t be any more Trayvons” in the future and that no one should be able to kill someone and get away with it. He asked others to remember his brother as “a happy teenager.”"
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Guess his brother’s just stirring up racial tensions too. If you have to go by what you hear peddled these days, we should be willing to silently accept the senseless murders of our brothers, sons, husbands, random strangers without demands for justice of any kind…as a sacrifice in the temple of racial ‘harmony’.
 
L_piperatus said:
So we are putting words into other people’s mouths? :rolleyes: Now THAT’S a leap if ever there was one. Of course when we miss what other people said in reality and when we start to put instead words into other people’s mouths, words that they never said, then we end up accusing people falsely and that’s not so nice. :tsktsk:

Here’s what I said, in the very post you quoted:
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You also said this:
Somebody needs to teach teenagers that IF they walk up to someone and punch someone in the nose, there will be consequences. ** Somebody needs to tell teenagers that if they physically hit people, people might fight back and even shoot back in self-defense and might even KILL those teenagers who hit them. If you are a teenager and you don’t want to die, you better don’t hit people and don’t punch them in the nose.** Because if you swing your fist on someone, you might end up in the morgue, with a bullet in your torso.
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I suggest that if you don’t want to be misunderstood, you shouldn’t mix fact with imaginary scenarios in the same post. If no teen hit anyone, whither all these lessons? Who are they for?
 
L_piperatus said:
If you are a teenager and you don’t want to die, you better don’t hit people and don’t punch them in the nose. Because if you swing your fist on someone, you might end up in the morgue, with a bullet in your torso. And this is, btw, true for everyone, whether they are teenagers or not. But teenagers are at a greater risk of doing stupid things. Thus, it can’t hurt to remind them: if you don’t want to get killed, you better don’t swing your fist at other people who did not hit you.
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**MORE IMPORTANT ADVICE:

don’t go out at night to buy Skittles and iced tea.**
For sure that adivice would have kept Trayvon safer.
 
By the looks of things, despite what I heard on TV yesterday, Zimmerman’s team didn’t get the memo about tearful remorse and apologies…Ah, well, maybe they can have their cake and eat it too.
 
seekerz said:
The people who rose up and demanded justice are the reason Zimmerman is having due process meted out. He should THANK them.
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If they were demanding justice, I can support that… But what I saw was a call for violence. And why are the members of the NBP still walking around free? And we seem to still be commenting on both sides without the facts. I find that uncharitable at the least, and ill-advised when in this country a man is innocent until proven guilty. We do not know what is in the charge, we do not know what happened. That is for a jury to decide. And to continue to have conjecture on both sides in an injustice.
 
mary_bobo said:
If they were demanding justice, fine. But what I saw was a call for violence. And why are the members of the NBP still walking around free?
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Thousands of people in the streets: grey-haired grandmas, toddlers in hoodies, kids carrying Skittles and all you saw was the NBP? My glasses are new and work pretty well; I watch TV 24/7 and never saw ANYONE on there threatening violence.

I’m not law enforcement, but I’d imagine that if anyone did threaten violence they’d have been arrested. If they learned the strategy of all hate-mongers and instead spouted trashy doublespeak, then I’d presume they’re still protected by the same constitution that protects other cowards like them!
 
mary_bobo said:
If they were demanding justice, I can support that… But what I saw was a call for violence. And why are the members of the NBP still walking around free? And we seem to still be commenting on both sides without the facts. I find that uncharitable at the least, and ill-advised when in this country a man is innocent until proven guilty. We do not know what is in the charge, we do not know what happened. That is for a jury to decide. And to continue to have conjecture on both sides in an injustice.
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Maybe we can be more constructive and draw up a code of conduct outlining things people are allowed to do and say (on both sides of the issue) when a child is shot and no one is held accountable.
 
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