"German archbishop calls for open debate about women priests in the Catholic Church"

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AlNg said:
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MNathaniel:
he doesn’t have the authority to disregard an infallible papal definitive statement
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How do you know that the statement was infallible?
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That is a good question, and one that any sort of debate would need to address. It is also one benefit I could see in debate. The issue of women’s ordination being infallible declared impossible might be settled. On the other hand, the few that disagree might not be convinced if Jesus Himself transported them to Purgatory for a day to knock some sense into them. In any case, I do not worry about Truth suffering.
 
pnewton said:
if Jesus Himself transported them to Purgatory for a day to knock some sense into them
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Has this ever happened with Jesus transporting people to Purgatory? Orthodox Christians and Protestants do not believe in Purgatory so if there are cases where Jesus did transport people to Purgatory, it should be pointed out the dates and to whom this has happened. BTW, would you not have to die first in order to go to Purgatory? If so, how would you come back to report it to the people still living on earth?
 
Montrose said:
In this case, an act of the ordinary Papal Magisterium, in itself not infallible, witnesses to the infallibility of the teaching of a doctrine already possessed by the Church.
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Thank you for quoting the whole response, though I would have highlighted this part as most pertinent.
 
I would have highlighted the whole thing.
Because while one could state that Ordination Sacerdotalis in and of itself may not be ‘infallible’, the expression of the infallible teaching of the Church, that the Church has no authority to ordain woman, is already an infallible teaching.

So the people who claim that they don’t have to accept Ordinatio Sacerdotalis because, “that statement by Pope St. John Paul II isn’t ex cathedra” don’t have a leg to stand on.

It is the same as if in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis Pope St. John Paul II had commented on the Trinity. The word “Trinity’ is not in the Bible and it was never defined by an ex cathedra statement, such as for the Immaculate Conception, but the teaching of the Trinity is an infallible teaching. Having an infallible teaching mentioned in a statement or encyclical does not make the infallible teaching ‘up for grabs’ because it is not made in an ex cathedra statement; it is an infallible teaching no matter where it is given because it’s already BEEN infallible.

Just as the teaching regarding the Church’s inability to ordain ‘women priests’ is already an infallible teaching.

The only ‘argument’ one can bring up is why people are still arguing that yes the Church COULD ordain women, and (gently but firmly) reiterating for each contentious and prideful generation who ‘discover’ some kind of ‘new interpretation’ that calls into question the Church’s teachings, “Nope, can’t do that.”
 
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stpurl said:
The only ‘argument’ one can bring up is why people are still arguing that yes the Church COULD ordain women, and (gently but firmly) reiterating for each contentious and prideful generation who ‘discover’ some kind of ‘new interpretation’ that calls into question the Church’s teachings, “Nope, can’t do that.”
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Father Sullivan has disagreed with that.
 
AlNg said:
Has this ever happened with Jesus transporting people to Purgatory?
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So, St. Peter noticed the pearly gates were in need of bad repair. He got permission to remodel them, and had a team of saintly architects draw up the new plans. He took them to Jesus and asked for his approval. Jesus spake unto Peter saying, “Sorry, Peter. We have architects and at least one good carpenter, but I am not sending out to Hell for a contractor.”

The point is, stories do not have to be possible.
 
No, you’re actually proving my point.

Anybody, priest or layperson, can ‘discover’ some kind of ‘new interpretation’ that calls into question the Church’s teachings—even the infallible ones—and attempt to argue.

Why look, you’re even attempting to argue with me, just because you ‘can’. By ‘can’, I mean that as a person with free will and an internet connection, you can come onto this site and comment, and provided you don’t break forum rules, swear, etc., you are free to say whatever you choose. In fact, you can continue to say ‘what if’ and ‘why not’ until the cows come home. If that’s how you choose to waste time over something that’s already been decided (infallibly), that’s on you.

And I of course can choose to calmly, gently, and firmly reiterate, “No the Church can’t do that.” (I’ve dealt with 2 year olds often enough that hearing endless ‘why not’ is nothing new.)

Unless you can prove to me that GOD Has disagreed with “Nope, can’t do that” with regard to women’s ordination —and since God doesn’t disagree with Himself that just won’t happen—it doesn’t matter if you, or Father Sullivan, or any human being whatsoever is disagreeing with the Church’s teachings except insofar as believing wrongly is keeping you from the kind of relationship with God that a person who does NOT disagree with Him has. Since as a Christian I want all people to be in harmony with God, I only wish to help people see correctly. I’m not in this to ‘win an argument’, I’m in this to testify to the truth. God’s truth, not ‘what somebody agrees or disagrees with’s ‘truth.”
 
pnewton said:
stories do not have to be possible.
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Yes. i agree that a whole lot of stories that i am reading here on CAF are not possible, or even if they were possible, it is extremely unlikely that they would have occurred.
 
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And that is a total non sequitur.
Or, if you prefer, it’s an attempt at argument from authority. A logical fallacy.
Next?
 
It’s a non sequitur and an attempt at argument from authority.

I will bid you a pleasant evening.
 
stpurl said:
It’s a non sequitur and an attempt at argument from authority.
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i don’t think it is a non sequitur. Father Sullivan is an authority yes, that much is true. But the reasons he offers for his opinion are based on Catholic theology.
 
You are not going to like this answer but AFAIK the answer to whether or not Orthodox believe in Purgatory is yes and no, but I think it is mostly no. As you suggest, purification is sometimes mentioned.
The Orthodox wiki details this further:
https://orthodoxwiki.org/Purgatory
 
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A dogma is a dogma, so it is not absurd.

But no, we cannot “discuss” the validity of dogmas as if they were open to change.
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Discussion with openness is the way to clarify a teaching. While some people find it hard to really understand why the Priesthood is a uniquely male vocation, others find it hard to concede that there’s any place for women in the leadership of the Church at all. Openness to the Spirit in dialogue is the way forward.
 
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