"German archbishop calls for open debate about women priests in the Catholic Church"

[KMC]

Gotcha. My reason for clarifying is this: In my pursuit of a master’s degree in Catholic theology, I’m in the second class in a row that is highly critical of a number of Fr. Sullivan’s views. In the last class, we read his book on “Salvation Outside the Church” and had to write a paper discussing what we agreed with and what we disagreed with. The professor highlighted several places where Sullivan contradicted Church teaching. In my current class, our textbook refers to Fr. Sullivan as a “revisionist theologian,” and shows where Fr. Sullivan’s opinions on the infallibility of certain moral teachings is contradicted by Church teaching. (This book has an imprimatur…so it has been approved by a bishop as being free from doctrinal error)

I would advise, if you are not Catholic, to pick a different Catholic theologian.

 

[AlNg]

I would advise, if you are not Catholic, to pick a different Catholic theologian.

Is it true that Father Sullivan has fairly high credentials? Perhaps even a bit higher than your professors?

 

[stpurl]

You aren’t still trying the argument from authority are you? Trying to imply that the word of one theologian is ‘more’ than ‘professors’ even though the poster noted that the PROFESSORS were referencing THEOLOGIANs, i.e. the ‘same rank’ as your Father Sullivan? Surely not?

 

[AlNg]

the ‘same rank’ as your Father Sullivan?

I didn’t see the names of the other theologians referenced. In any case,
I am not sure that they had the same strong credentials as Father Sullivan.
In any case, if you could give me the name of the theologian who disagrees with Father Sullivan and at the same time has the same rank as Father Sullivan, I will check it out.

 

[stpurl]

You are still missing the point. It isn’t about any person and his ‘credentials’, it is about Truth.

The Church has already been given the authentic and correct teaching that it has no authority to ordain women. Case closed. Roma locuta est, causa finita est.

So it wouldn’t matter if St. Thomas Aquinas appeared in all his glory and said, “hey, let’s debate women’s ordination because I personally don’t think it’s infallible’.

On second thought, St. Thomas wasn’t a ninny. Let’s make it Origen. He had some good insight once and then went spectacularly off the rails (self castration, now there’s the ticket). You could gasp that Origen was One of the early Church Fathers—credential up the roof!!! And yet he would still be as wrong if he followed Father Sullivan’s lead on this topic as he was with. . .other things. No matter how many things he got correct, he didn’t get them right because HE said them, he got what was right because it WAS right. No matter WHO said it.

 

[MNathaniel]

In any case, if you could give me the name of the theologian who disagrees with Father Sullivan and at the same time has the same rank as Father Sullivan, I will check it out.

The only theologian whose opinion I care about on this topic is Pope Saint John Paul II who spoke definitively and authoritatively on the subject and closed the debate forever.

Father Sullivan, bless his heart, doesn’t approach the office of the Papacy in terms of authority to teach. No mere theologian does.

 

[AlNg]

The question is the correct theological interpretation of what was declared. Some here interpret it one way; but Father Sullivan has a somewhat different interpretation.

the PROFESSORS were referencing THEOLOGIANs, i.e. the ‘same rank’ as your Father Sullivan

without knowing he names of the theologians involved, I would not be able to verify that they had the same rank.

 

[MNathaniel]

The question is the correct theological interpretation of what was declared. Some here interpret it one way; but Father Sullivan has a somewhat different interpretation.

Why are you so fixed on this ‘Father Sullivan’s’ interpretation?

The Pope already gave the interpretation that Catholics are bound by. No other interpretation will ever matter.

 

[AlNg]

The Pope already gave the interpretation that Catholics are bound by. No other interpretation will ever matter.

The Pope gave the declaration. AFAIK, Father Sullivan is giving his interpretation of the implications of the declaration.

 

[MNathaniel]

The Pope gave the declaration. Father Sullivan is giving his interpretation of the implications of the declaration.

Sorry, I can’t seem to find it in this thread (my phone jumps around as new things load):

Can you please repeat Fr. Sullivan’s interpretation?

 

[AlNg]

Sorry, I can’t seem to find it in this thread (my phone jumps around as new things load):

Can you please repeat Fr. Sullivan’s interpretation?

The article was published in the Tablet: The Tablet 23/30 December 1995, p. 1646. But I could not access it on that site. However, the article was reprinted by a women’s ordination group.
https://web.archive.org/web/20090628151627/http://www.womenpriests.org/teaching/sulliva1.asp

The national Catholic Reporter had some comments about it:

Editorial: Ordination of women would correct an injustice | National Catholic Reporter

 

[MNathaniel]

The article was published in the Tablet: The Tablet 23/30 December 1995, p. 1646. But I could not access it on that site. However, the article was reprinted by a women’s ordination group.
Women priests website

Thanks for sharing the link!

And wow, what a bizarre line of reasoning he takes.

I barely know what to say beyond, do you really read this and think this is reasonable?

Really?

I read this and think what a tragic and lost trap Fr. Sullivan has fallen into.

The national Catholic Reporter had some comments about it:

And thanks for sharing the NCR editorial… made me laugh out loud and crossed that website off my list of websites to bother looking at again.

Honestly. I don’t mean to be flippant or insensitive here. But do you actually read this stuff and think it’s reasonable? Which part? I understand that you’re not a Catholic… but if you understand how Catholicism works, why can’t you look, even from the outside, and see which of the actors within it are acting consistent with her own principles, and which are activists ignoring her principles or desperately trying to get people to doubt them as part of trying to subvert and change her for some external agenda?

The question of women’s ordination really is closed. Like really really. Any illusion that it’s not closed is propagated by activists with a predetermined agenda. They don’t put God first. They put their private gender ideology first. That might’ve toppled other denominations but it won’t work here. The pope has already spoken infallibly, even if they try desperately to rebut that by saying ‘But what if we imagine he didn’t though?’ He did. It’s over. They’re only living in their own illusion for however long they choose to (and amplifying how upset they’ll be the day they each decide to accept reality and move on with more important issues in life).

 

[AlNg]

Any illusion that it’s not closed is propagated by activists with a predetermined agenda. They don’t put God first.

You are not being very kind to the Catholic German archbishop.

 

[MNathaniel]

You are not being very kind to the Catholic German archbishop.

Maybe certain German hierarchs aren’t being very kind to the global faithful.

 

[Montrose]

The Pope gave the declaration. AFAIK, Father Sullivan is giving his interpretation of the implications of the declaration.

Why are you still going on about this topic?
It is an infallible teaching of the Church that women cannot become priests. It is irrelevant what an individual priest thinks about this.

 

[AlNg]

Why are you still going on about this topic?

Because the title of the thread is:

“German archbishop calls for open debate about women priests in the Catholic Church”​

It is irrelevant what an individual priest thinks about this.

I think it is more than one individual priest.

 

[KMC]

KMC:

I would advise, if you are not Catholic, to pick a different Catholic theologian.

Is it true that Father Sullivan has fairly high credentials? Perhaps even a bit higher than your professors?

Fr. Sullivan has been contradicted by the Church itself. He is not part of the Church’s teaching authority. Understand that there are numerous theologians with “fairly high credentials” as well, that disagree with Fr. Sullivan. The big question for you is: How do you know who is right? The answer is simple: The faithful of the Catholic Church should never prefer an opinion of a theologian, no matter their credentials, over the authoritative teaching of those who have been invested by Jesus with the power to teaching in His name: the Magisterium (i.e the Pope by virtue of his office, or the Bishops teaching in unison with the pope). To be clear: Fr. Sullivan, while learned, has never been a part of the teaching authority of the Church.

An additional comment: The professors at my school take an oath of fidelity to the magisterium of the Church, meaning: they take an oath that they will not teach anything contradictory to Church teaching. This is why I cited the imprimatur on my textbook that highlights some of Fr. Sullivan’s errors.

When you see contradicting theological opinions you need to reference magisterial documents of the Church to know what the truth of Catholic teaching is. A number of those magisterial documents have either been linked to in this thread. (Or referenced, or links to articles that summarize faithfully the teachings of those documents.)

 

[Montrose]

I think it is more than one individual priest.

That is irrelevant. It is an infallible teaching meaning there will never be women priests. Both you and the priest are flogging a dead horse. Debating the subject is a complete waste of time.

 

[AlNg]

It is irrelevant what an individual priest thinks about this.

I think it is more than one individual priest.

That is irrelevant.

Then why did you bring up the question of it being one individual priest?
It is not only one priest as we see from the title of the thread. There is a Roman Catholic archbishop calling for an open debate about women priests. And the local Roman Catholic priest has given a sermon at the college Newman center calling for women priests. And a woman spoke for a short while about how the male hierarchy of the Catholic Church has discriminated against women for 2000 years. Why do Roman Catholic centers support these activities?

Both you and the priest are flogging a dead horse.

But then why does a Roman Catholic archbishop call for an open debate on this? I am only reporting what I have observed.

 

[stpurl]

Well let’s see. I suppose that there have never, ever been priests or pastors or rabbis or ministers of a particular religious group who have stood up, written about, or proposed actions which went against the religious group’s teachings.

There were never individuals who picked and chose some religious beliefs to follow and ignored the rest.

Never people who tried to direct ‘from the inside’ a ‘change’ to teaching.

It must be, because you are so surprised to find that there are Catholics out there who reject some of the Catholic faith, and try to encourage others to join them.

Why, Scripture itself must never have spoken of people who were members of the Church and yet sinned and had to be sanctioned.

What a shock.

In other news. . .water is still wet. Film at 11.