German Bishops: Catholics Who Formally Leave Church Cannot Receive Sacraments

[iloveangels]

I asked and no, they don’t pay taxes; they donate to their own funds. So someone asked our friend who paid for all the mosques right, and Müslüm answered that he’d pay for all the mosques haha I suppose the mosques are maintained through donations also

Churches, as organizations, actually opt into this arrangement. A church can opt out anytime they wish too.

The law was set up in its final form in the 1930s, and the Church, as an organization, has never changed its participation in this system.

 

[iloveangels]

So atheists in Germany who were formerly Christain are appalled that they have to pay a church tax.
So they declare they have left their respective churches.
They are now appalled that they can’t receive the sacrements that they don’t believe in.
You must have to be German to understand this.

No we have our own cranks too. The situation is different though.

 

[iloveangels]

LOL. No, just human.
I have an acquaintance who was outraged that the Catholic priest would not marry him and his girlfriend. He was a divorced nominal Protestant. The woman was a fallen away Catholic cohabiting with him and their 2 children. They were completely outraged! They thought they had a right to be married by that priest.

This is VERY, VERY common in the USA, yes. If it weren’t so outrageous, it’d be hilarious.

Okay, on a realistic level it still is.

 

[iloveangels]

Many good Catholics do not want to pay Church taxes, because one part of this money is used to pay Heretics. Also some leave formally the Church, because it is a crime to allow everyone the Sacraments except to someone who does not pay taxes.
This is money for salvation and some like Hartmut Zapp try to fight this.

I understand. Common understandings about church have been in trouble for a while in Germany, both inside and outside the Catholic community, if I have understood correctly.

The problem with talking about this with a bunch of Americans is that they see an entirely different set of problems in their own communities and they misconstrue what’s happening in Germany to be a good thing, when it’s more complicated than that. Yes?

 

[iloveangels]

Does the German government collect extra taxes from people with a church affiliation or, if you claim an affiliation does it just give a portion of what you’d have to pay anyway?

If I understand correctly, Gary, it’s added onto the basic tax that you pay, so you actually pay less taxes if you claim you’re “unaffiliated.”

Here’s another interesting thing. If you belong to some churches that aren’t on the list that use the program, you don’t pay the government. Example: Anglican. Rather you pay the church directly in Germany in the form of a tithe. Methods vary apparently.

 

[Pug]

Sure you can do as you wish. You can choose to sign and go anytime you wish.

I think I must have been unclear. “Do as you wish” in my mind meant pay your local parish or the poor of the parish the money directly without paying it through the state and still be able to receive sacraments. You cannot do that, as far as I can tell (unless you are poor enough to be excluded from tax, presumably).

Such a person is not remotely interested in being able to leave the Church.

 

[iloveangels]

I think I must have been unclear. “Do as you wish” in my mind meant pay your local parish or the poor of the parish the money directly without paying it through the state and still be able to receive sacraments. You cannot do that, as far as I can tell (unless you are poor enough to be excluded from tax, presumably).

Not sure about that, Pug. It seems that that’s rather uncommon though.

The normal way of doing it is to pay the taxes through the government. That’s how they have it set up for everyone. Besides, I’m thinking that if you’re going to pay the same amount anyway to the parish, I don’t know what financial difference it would make to pay it to the parish instead. None in Euros. Particularly because this has been designated as the method to use.

 

[Pug]

Not sure about that, Pug. It seems that that’s rather uncommon though.

The normal way of doing it is to pay the taxes through the government. That’s how they have it set up for everyone. Besides, I’m thinking that if you’re going to pay the same amount anyway to the parish, I don’t know what financial difference it would make to pay it to the parish instead. None in Euros. Particularly because this has been designated as the method to use.

There would be no collection fee paid to the government and second, I could direct the money as I like, to my parish, and not to a general pot. Say there is are two parishes in town, one completely loco and full of abuse and teaching children wrong ideas at their school, and one perfectly nice parish. I’d like the ability to support the perfectly nice parish, and not the loco one.

 

[iloveangels]

There would be no collection fee paid to the government and second, I could direct the money as I like, to my parish, and not to a general pot. Say there is are two parishes in town, one completely loco and full of abuse and teaching children wrong ideas at their school, and one perfectly nice parish. I’d like the ability to support the perfectly nice parish, and not the loco one.

The German system doesn’t allow that, and I doubt that they’d go along with that on an individual basis. The system is set up differently.

Both the German government who has a vested interest in doing it the other way, and the Church who probably likes the predictability for planning purposes have set it up the other way.

You’d probably be asked, very directly, “if you plan to donate X number of Euros anyway, what’s the problem with doing it the regular way?” And “if you don’t plan on donating X number of Euros, what’s going on?” Then you’d have to explain the whole picking-and-choosing thing and they might object to that.

 

[garysibio]

If I understand correctly, Gary, it’s added onto the basic tax that you pay, so you actually pay less taxes if you claim you’re “unaffiliated.”

Here’s another interesting thing. If you belong to some churches that aren’t on the list that use the program, you don’t pay the government. Example: Anglican. Rather you pay the church directly in Germany in the form of a tithe. Methods vary apparently.

That’s what I figured it had to be since it didn’t make sense to unaffiliate yourself if it wasn’t costing you anything in the first place. I just didn’t want to make any assumptions.

 

[iloveangels]

That’s what I figured it had to be since it didn’t make sense to unaffiliate yourself if it wasn’t costing you anything in the first place. I just didn’t want to make any assumptions.

Right.

 

[Pug]

The German system doesn’t allow that, and I doubt that they’d go along with that on an individual basis. The system is set up differently.

Both the German government who has a vested interest in doing it the other way, and the Church who probably likes the predictability for planning purposes have set it up the other way.

You’d probably be asked, very directly, “if you plan to donate X number of Euros anyway, what’s the problem with doing it the regular way?” And “if you don’t plan on donating X number of Euros, what’s going on?” Then you’d have to explain the whole picking-and-choosing thing and they might object to that.

I agree that the bishops in Germany likely don’t want you to opt out. Forcing people to donate a set percentage or more (freewill for the more) will presumably get them vastly more money than leaving minimum donation decisions to the individual/family. It also probably makes it easier to finance unpopular projects.

 

[iloveangels]

I agree that the bishops in Germany likely don’t want you to opt out. Forcing people to donate a set percentage or more (freewill for the more) will presumably get them vastly more money than leaving minimum donation decisions to the individual/family. It also probably makes it easier to finance unpopular projects.

Yup, especially since many people in Germany regard religion to be social structure and the money to be a nice family thing to do. It’s an old attitude in Germany. They also have the old “what will the neighbors think” thing going on. I don’t know how everyone knows, including the priests though, if you’ve opted out. I’m checking on that.

Plus mass attendance rates in Germany are very low, so if you depend on people giving in mass, there probably isn’t going to be very much in the plate.

cara.georgetown.edu/CARAServices/intmassattendance.html

[Doesn’t include the latest statistics, but the latest I can find right now. They haven’t gone up by all accounts.]

BTW, when they say %, they’re not saying % of the general population that goes to mass, but rather % of Catholics who are going to mass.

 

[iloveangels]

There’s a lot more detail to this fairly complicated issue near the end of this article:

blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2012/09/25/german-catholic-activists-rap-decree-excluding-church-tax-opt-outs/

Right now, there’s a lot going on and even though this declaration is the only thing most Americans have heard about this, this issue has been brewing in Germany for some time now.

And here’s the last thing. It looks like the German government agreed with the meaning of filling out the papers this week.

German court backs Catholic Church against tax opt-outs
news.sympatico.ca/world/german_court_backs_catholic_church_against_tax_opt-outs/f3fb1947

 

[iloveangels]

Of course, I really didn’t expect anything else out of the German government. Otherwise, they’d have to say that they’ve been filling out papers for literally years, and taking hours every week at it, for nothing. They’re not going to say that. And particularly not in this economic climate.

I can’t help but think that this is going to impress some Germans in a bad way.

 

[Cavman]

Nope.

Keep church and state separate.

The government will always have strings attached when giving the church their tax collected revenues.

Jim

HOOAH!

 

[Cavman]

Thank God I’m a Catholic American.

 

[austenbosten]

I agree with the Conservative Catholics that it’s hypocritical to refuse the Sacraments to those who don’t pay the tax, but heretics can receive them as long as they have the dough.

I understand economically and sociologically why the bishops are doing this, they can’t just opt-out of the system in favor of collecting tithes on their own and not expect a critical drop in revenues because Germans are just not used to dumping dough into the basket…but surely there is a better way than this.

 

[austenbosten]

Thank God I’m a Catholic American.

You mean American Catholic, don’t you?

 

[iloveangels]

You mean American Catholic, don’t you?

I expect he used the label in the way he did for a reason, AustenBosten. For instance, I happen to be a Catholic living in America, not an “American Catholic,” which has an unwanted connotation among some Catholics.

I think he meant to say he’s glad he’s Catholic and living in the USA, not living in Germany. Germany seems to be having a few problems just now.