German Bishops: Catholics Who Formally Leave Church Cannot Receive Sacraments

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I’ve seen this posted several times around the internet this week, and I finally got to the point where I needed to research it myself because it just didn’t sound right…

Anyways the church is not charging money in Germany for the sacraments. I think that this is very dishonest reporting. What I have found is that in Germany all Germans register themselves at a governmental registration office. At this time the person marks what religion they belong to Muslim, Jew, Lutheran, Anglican, Orthodox, Catholic etc. Religion is taxed in Germany according to what religion you belong to at a rate from 0%-9% of your income.

For a German Catholic (or anyone else) who decides that they no longer want to pay this tax. They have to return to the Government office and declare that they have officially left the Catholic Church and they sign a legal document that states that they renounce their Catholic faith. I’ve heard it said that this signed form is then copied and then sent to the Catholic Church. After this defection from their Catholic Faith then the German Catholic no longer have this tax removed from their income.

There are many problems with this mindset of the German Catholic community. Which is why in my opinion the German Bishops have decided to speak on this issue.
  1. The German Catholics have officially renounced their Catholic Faith. Why would they still be able to receive the sacrament if they have separated themselves from the church.
  2. The German Catholics want to deny their belief in the church for money, while having the church say “ok commit tax fraud, you can deny your faith in the Holy Catholic Church started by Christ, but we (The German Bishops) no you don’t mean it…Here take the Body of Christ, which you have officially renounced in writing”
  3. For me personally as a Catholic, I say “Amen” to the Body Christ and the fullness of the truth found in his church. I’m willing to suffer bodily harm and death to proclaim this belief, and there indeed have been members of the church who have suffered like that. But, these German Catholics aren’t willing to profess their faith because it hurts their bank accounts. Even more they want the church to turn a blind eye to their defection from the church and support their tax evasion scheme.
I’m off my tangent now. If there are any German Catholics here who would like to correct what I have written, please do.
 
gus said:
So the atheist who make a formal declaration of this fact are doing it to protest what you perceive to be a sin?
Athesist don’t believe in sin.
So your alleged simony couldn’t possibly a reason.
Oh the’re not really athesist the’re just liars who have a greater view of right and wrong. Oh wait their liars so dishonesty couln’t be part of this pristine world view…
Don’t get me wrong the Church should not accept anything from the state. But Please don’t sanctify tax dodgers whose mot8ves I suspect run a wide spectrum.
I would
Shut down any church and School that can 't pay its own way.If a wealth country like Germany can’t support their own state they don’t deserve to have a Church.

let the the Germans decide what if any faith to follow.
Exempt Catholics from the tax
Just tax the Protestants they don’t seem to have proplems getting money from the state

Whatever position we take it will be critized
The headlines will read THE VATICAN gets tax exemptions for German Catholics.
Its the price for membership in Christ’s Church
Its a price I gladly pay.
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No, no. You’re missing the whole issue. It’s nothing like any of that.

Read carefully the background about Hartmut Zapp, and the details or you’ll miss it again.

bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19699581

bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19737983
 
Millie123 said:
I’ve seen this posted several times around the internet this week, and I finally got to the point where I needed to research it myself because it just didn’t sound right…
I’m off my tangent now. If there are any German Catholics here who would like to correct what I have written, please do.
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No, no. Children born to Catholics are assumed to be Catholics. Everybody gets signed up if they go anywhere near a church, have any sacraments or services. It also applies to other churches including Mennonite and Evangelical which in Germany is Lutheran. If you want out, you have to resign mechanically by going to the government office and paying an opt-out fee in most places. I think only in Berlin and one other place it’s free to fill out the paperwork.

If you’re a foreign national, living in Germany, that’s who they ask about religion. They ordinarily don’t ask people living there unless there’s actually a paperwork question, the person has moved to another part of the country, etc.

You have to keep in mind that German attitudes are much different than American attitudes on these things. It’s really an apples & oranges thing. The background and history in Germany is much different than here, and so is the commonsense framework. So is what’s going on in the Church and around the Church.

And as I said before, there are a couple of other threads on this topic in CAF which are much longer than this one and have a lot of information already, links and stuff.
 
Thanks for the links.
The only thing I learned is the tax was imposed in 1803.
Germany didn’t even exist in 1803.Had to be local custom.
Carried over by those atheists Prussian.
Probably a realpolitick concession for the forced German Unification.
Actually the tax sounds more like a government scam.
if you raise you taxes we can get it to an organizition that actually knows how to redistribute it.
Plus they charge a fee to the Church for the privlige.
The tax is not on your income but rather on your tax.
8% of 10% is different than 8% of 100%.
That’s a lot smaller than a tithe required for membership in some US Churches.
Other then that it was a vague opinion piece typical BBC
No background no mention that exemption required formal declaration or denouncing your faith. Details who cares about details.
 
gus said:
Thanks for the links.
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You’re welcome.
gus said:
The only thing I learned is the tax was imposed in 1803.
Germany didn’t even exist in 1803.Had to be local custom.
Carried over by those atheists Prussian.
Probably a realpolitick concession for the forced German Unification.
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The law has been updated through the years. Apparently the last time was in the 1930s. The laws that actually administer the details are from that era, I think.
gus said:
Actually the tax sounds more like a government scam.
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Not sure what you mean by “scam” but I assure you that this is where the Church gets nearly all its revenue in Germany. This applies to the Lutheran church also who uses the exact same system to get its money too.
gus said:
if you raise you taxes we can get it to an organizition that actually knows how to redistribute it.
Plus they charge a fee to the Church for the privlige.
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Correct. The government levies the tax and then charges the Church a fee to collect it, which is okay with the Church there because they probably get more this way than they would if they had to collect it in church, like they do here.
gus said:
The tax is not on your income but rather on your tax. 8% of 10% is different than 8% of 100%.
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Correct. But the general taxation rate in Germany is very high. I found a German tax calculator online here that you can play with: parmentier.de/steuer/steuer.htm?wagetax.htm
gus said:
That’s a lot smaller than a tithe required for membership in some US Churches.
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I"m not sure that’s what’s at issue here. It’s not the amount. Rather, it’s a) the fact that you basically are a Catholic if the government says you are and b) making reception of the sacraments contingent on money is a problem theologically.
gus said:
Other then that it was a vague opinion piece typical BBC
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No, actually it’s fairly factual and agrees with many of the things I’ve seen from expatriots on the net who actually live and work in Germany. And it does contain the factual details about why this was announced and why it was announced when it was. There was a German legal case etc…
gus said:
No background no mention that exemption required formal declaration or denouncing your faith. Details who cares about details.
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Maybe you don’t care about details when an issue is discussed but most people actually do. Knowing details allows for better and more knowledgeable discussion.
 
Millie123 said:
Like I said, I’ve been reading about this all week.
Here are a few websites in which I have found information.

german-tax-back.com/church-tax.html
arsvivendiblog.com/do-german-bishops-deny-sacraments-to-those-who-dont-pay-church-tax/#more-5137
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Yes, those are nice simple explanations of what Kirchensteuer is. But you do not sign up a child when he is born. If you baptize him, he gets signed up automatically. Many people are surprised to find that they are signed up when they did no paperwork at all to sign up.

In fact, if you are a foreign national coming into the country to work or live or you’ve married a German, but you’re not Catholic or Lutheran, you have to be very careful to make sure they get it right and don’t sign you up that way or you’ll get taxed like a Catholic or Lutheran, whatever they assume you are. It’s somewhat automatic unless you’ve filed the opt-out papers or been very, very clear about this.
 
Millie123 said:
I’ve seen this posted several times around the internet this week, and I finally got to the point where I needed to research it myself because it just didn’t sound right…

Anyways the church is not charging money in Germany for the sacraments. I think that this is very dishonest reporting. What I have found is that in Germany all Germans register themselves at a governmental registration office. At this time the person marks what religion they belong to Muslim, Jew, Lutheran, Anglican, Orthodox, Catholic etc. Religion is taxed in Germany according to what religion you belong to at a rate from 0%-9% of your income.

For a German Catholic (or anyone else) who decides that they no longer want to pay this tax. They have to return to the Government office and declare that they have officially left the Catholic Church and they sign a legal document that states that they renounce their Catholic faith. I’ve heard it said that this signed form is then copied and then sent to the Catholic Church. After this defection from their Catholic Faith then the German Catholic no longer have this tax removed from their income.

There are many problems with this mindset of the German Catholic community. Which is why in my opinion the German Bishops have decided to speak on this issue.
  1. The German Catholics have officially renounced their Catholic Faith. Why would they still be able to receive the sacrament if they have separated themselves from the church.
  2. The German Catholics want to deny their belief in the church for money, while having the church say “ok commit tax fraud, you can deny your faith in the Holy Catholic Church started by Christ, but we (The German Bishops) no you don’t mean it…Here take the Body of Christ, which you have officially renounced in writing”
  3. For me personally as a Catholic, I say “Amen” to the Body Christ and the fullness of the truth found in his church. I’m willing to suffer bodily harm and death to proclaim this belief, and there indeed have been members of the church who have suffered like that. But, these German Catholics aren’t willing to profess their faith because it hurts their bank accounts. Even more they want the church to turn a blind eye to their defection from the church and support their tax evasion scheme.
I’m off my tangent now. If there are any German Catholics here who would like to correct what I have written, please do.
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The problem is that the Germans have no choice. If they are earning a basic wage and have a large family to support or large medical bills or whatever crisis caused by low wages, they will not be able to afford the extra 8% over and above the normal taxation. The only way out is to sign a government document to say that they renounce their faith. This is a bad situation if they are desperate to keep the 8% for the basics of life for themselves and their family.

We can’t just happily say it is the German’s fault because they signed their faith away. None of us, outside of northern Europe, are forced to give 8% to the government for the upkeep of the church.

Those who have drafted this rule of ‘pay up or sign away your faith’ knew that most would not be prepared to do this. To me it is a form of extortion.

That system does not stem from the teaching of Jesus.
 
I just want to be clear that I don’t think it’s right either. This is another reason why I enjoy the separation of church and state. And I want to make it clear that I am not “happily” declaring anything. I think the sin of Apostasy is sad for everyone, not just for the the individual person, but also for the church as a whole. Apostasy is sad.
 
Is it 8%of gross income or is it an 8% extract of the overall income tax(ie 8% of 30%)?

According to this website
german-tax-back.com/church-tax.html
It is 8% of income tax
In which case the tax is around 2.5% of gross income(based on 30% income tax)
I think
 
iloveangels said:
gus;9823896:
That’s a lot smaller than a tithe required for membership in some US Churches.
Click to expand...
I"m not sure that’s what’s at issue here. It’s not the amount. Rather, it’s a) the fact that you basically are a Catholic if the government says you are and b) making reception of the sacraments contingent on money is a problem theologically.
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No, you are a Catholic if you say you are.

The Government says that if you are Catholic, you have to pay the Church tax.

The Church says that if you are Catholic but are willing to stand up and publicly declare that you aren’t to avoid paying the tax, then you are a Catholic not in good standing with the Church and can’t receive the sacraments.

Christians went to the arena to meet the lions rather than denounce their faith and here we have Catholics willing to declare themselves not Catholic to avoid paying a tax-deductible couple of grand (if they earn a high income) a year to the Church that they are mandated by precept to financially support in the first place.
 
austenbosten said:
Hehe not meant to be a grammar Nazi Cavman but if that’s how you described yourself (as I assumed from the get-go) then you would describe yourself as an American Catholic.

You see the adjective always comes before the noun. 👍
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So if I were to place the word “practicing” in there, such as practicing American Catholic, would it be mean practicing American or practicing Catholic? 🙂
 
Phemie said:
Christians went to the arena to meet the lions rather than denounce their faith and here we have Catholics willing to declare themselves not Catholic to avoid paying a tax-deductible couple of grand (if they earn a high income) a year to the Church that they are mandated by precept to financially support in the first place.
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My understanding is that this 8-9% is a surtax of sorts. The math becomes very convoluted if it’s tax-deductible as well. I know it would throw my tax spreadsheet into a loop. 🙂
 
ProVobis said:
My understanding is that this 8-9% is a surtax of sorts. The math becomes very convoluted if it’s tax-deductible as well. I know it would throw my tax spreadsheet into a loop. 🙂
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I wonder if this surtax is based on your income tax before deductions are factored in? That would only require adding a column for the Church tax to your spreadsheet.

I’m assuming that their tax forms probably include a ‘Schedule X’ form for that calculation.
 
Everybody is making such a big fuss out of this except the people that this relates to.
I am a Catholic in Germany. I come from Portugal where the system is completely different and I understand the system here perfectly fine.
Everybody that registers as living in Germany has to say what Church they are part of, I said I was Roman Catholic. Because I am Roman Catholic 8% of my income tax is given to the Catholic Church from my income. But this only happens because I do pay taxes. If I did not have a job and was not required to pay taxes I would not need to pay this Church tax (Actually it would get paid from the money I get from unemployment aid, but that’s a different story).
This has to do with the fact that a lot of Catholics just erase their Catholic status from the state’s registry and continue to call themselves Catholics in Faith.
This does not really make sense as if I am a Catholic why would I have a problem saying it to the government? It stands to reason that We should as Catholics assume our responsability as members of the Church, also before the state that deals with this registry.
I think that the excuse of continuing to be a Catholic without being part of the system is just a form of Protestantism.
God bless,
D.

P.S.: The example in the article is pretty simple about the amount. If your tax to the state is 10000 euros, the church tax would be 800 euros. To calculate the tax to the state it is required to know if you earn enough to be taxable, or your economic situation (dependants, or illness). The church tax is applied after all this is put into account.
P.S.2: In Germany we don’t have to fill in Tax forms unless you are an employer. It’s awesome!
 
Phemie said:
No, you are a Catholic if you say you are.

The Government says that if you are Catholic, you have to pay the Church tax.

The Church says that if you are Catholic but are willing to stand up and publicly declare that you aren’t to avoid paying the tax, then you are a Catholic not in good standing with the Church and can’t receive the sacraments.

Christians went to the arena to meet the lions rather than denounce their faith and here we have Catholics willing to declare themselves not Catholic to avoid paying a tax-deductible couple of grand (if they earn a high income) a year to the Church that they are mandated by precept to financially support in the first place.
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Amen
 
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