German Bishops: Catholics Who Formally Leave Church Cannot Receive Sacraments

[iloveangels]

I just want to be clear that I don’t think it’s right either. This is another reason why I enjoy the separation of church and state. And I want to make it clear that I am not “happily” declaring anything. I think the sin of Apostasy is sad for everyone, not just for the the individual person, but also for the church as a whole. Apostasy is sad.

Before the latest court decision and ruling by the bishops, people were being threatened with flat excommunication if they didn’t pay their church tax. This latest ruling actually came up short of that. It limits sacraments and services but some are still available, since the person doesn’t get flat-out excommunicated, which they probably can’t actually do on a huge basis, even if they wanted to, which I’m sure they don’t.

Is it 8%of gross income or is it an 8% extract of the overall income tax(ie 8% of 30%)?

According to this website
german-tax-back.com/church-tax.html
It is 8% of income tax
In which case the tax is around 2.5% of gross income(based on 30% income tax)
I think

Actually depending on what you make, maybe a little higher. It’s 8 or 9% of your tax, based on gross wages. However the German tax rate is very high compared to the American one, approaching 50% for many people who don’t make a huge amount of money.

The German system is a sliding tax scale, like ours but it’s steeper than ours. You can reach the top tax rate much faster than we do in this country. This is because they have so many services that the government provides and it takes a lot of money to keep all those government employees paid. It’s a social welfare system. Many governments in Europe are like this and it’s why they’re having so much trouble over there. They’re grossly over-extended.

 

[iloveangels]

The problem is that the Germans have no choice. If they are earning a basic wage and have a large family to support or large medical bills or whatever crisis caused by low wages, they will not be able to afford the extra 8% over and above the normal taxation. The only way out is to sign a government document to say that they renounce their faith. This is a bad situation if they are desperate to keep the 8% for the basics of life for themselves and their family.

We can’t just happily say it is the German’s fault because they signed their faith away. None of us, outside of northern Europe, are forced to give 8% to the government for the upkeep of the church.

Those who have drafted this rule of ‘pay up or sign away your faith’ knew that most would not be prepared to do this. To me it is a form of extortion.

That system does not stem from the teaching of Jesus.

Well, it has historical roots. This isn’t just something they decided on yesterday. In certain parts of history, like during the Third Reich, this was considered a very good thing. It’s just that now, it’s a problem.

 

[iloveangels]

No, you are a Catholic if you say you are.

No, there are people who’ve filed the paperwork to save money on taxes who are saying they’re Catholic and both the government and the Church says they’re not Catholic, aka they must “exit the Church.” This is what the Hartmut Zapp thing was about. bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19699581

But it’s not really clear that they’re not Catholic because they’ve left the door to receiving Sacraments in extremis open. You can still get married in the Church under certain circumstances, and you can still get sacraments before you die, even if you can’t be buried with a mass. And the cemeteries are civil so you get buried in the same place anyway. It’s a technicality that people have picked up on too. See below…

The Government says that if you are Catholic, you have to pay the Church tax.

Because the Church has requested that taxes be collected that way, yes. It’s an old practice. It was considered favorable to the Church during the Third Reich because it was one way the government recognized the Church. It’s considered favorable now, because it enables a whole bunch of organizations to stay open even though Church attendance and practice are way down in Germany. Mass attendance rates are very low, and if they had to depend on passing the plate like they do in the US, they’d take in far less money simply because mass attendance rates are so low in most Germany cities and towns.

You have to understand that the way that Germans regard church is different than how we regard it here. They expect the Church to be a social welfare agency, and many Germans think that by paying the tax they’re just contributing to public order and civil charity. It has nothing to do with religion for many of them.

The Church says that if you are Catholic but are willing to stand up and publicly declare that you aren’t to avoid paying the tax, then you are a Catholic not in good standing with the Church and can’t receive the sacraments.

Yes. And this is a change from the previous stance, which said that you would be excommunicated for not paying your church taxes. I don’t think that they can do that, honestly to more than 100,000 people a year, even if they wanted to. There are increasing numbers of people opting out, and pretty soon this is going to take on a life of its own. The economy is very bad in Germany.

Note that it’s not failure to practice or failure to show up at mass or get the sacraments that’s getting the threat. You can miss everything, say there’s no God, and pay your taxes and you’re good to go. It’s precisely not paying the money that’s associated with the threat. This is what makes people go “tilt.”

Christians went to the arena to meet the lions rather than denounce their faith and here we have Catholics willing to declare themselves not Catholic to avoid paying a tax-deductible couple of grand (if they earn a high income) a year to the Church that they are mandated by precept to financially support in the first place.

Yes, but I’m not sure it’s the same thing at all. This is about money. In Roman times, it was about practice of religion, not money.

 

[iloveangels]

My understanding is that this 8-9% is a surtax of sorts. The math becomes very convoluted if it’s tax-deductible as well. I know it would throw my tax spreadsheet into a loop.

parmentier.de/steuer/steuer.htm?wagetax.htm

It’s taken off the top. I don’t believe it’s tax deductible.

For every 10,000 Euros in tax you pay, you add 800 more Euros or 900 more Euros (depending on where you life) to your tax bill, so you pay 10,800 instead of 10,000, for instance. Tax rates in general are very high in Germany compared to here, though so a lot of people pay more than 10,000 Euros in taxes.

The Lutheran church uses the same system for the same reasons. Lutheran church attendance is also very low now.

It’s one of these “the Church uses the government” and the “government uses the Church” things. Not sure what it does to the message of the Gospel. We have something like this going on in the USA too, through government funding of Catholic organizations. In general, from a theological point of view, it hasn’t been very good for preaching the Gospel here. At. All. It has given us a more or less “two-tiered” system where one tier is what you see when you go to Church and the other is quasi-governmental in nature—“Catholic institutions” operating under government auspices. The government’s always trying to control how much religion we have in our apostolates as a result of the fact that they’re giving us the money in grants to run them. This is what the whole HHS mandate thing is really about.

And we have lots and lots of people who, somewhat like in German culture, believe that the Church is first and foremost a Social Welfare agency who shouldn’t say things like “sin,” and “hell” and “heaven” in public. Although here it has a distinctly American spin on it of course. The similarities actually between the two systems are quite striking, even though the laws and mechanisms for collecting the money and distributing the money to the churches are quite different.

 

[Cavman]

Once again being a grammar-shnazi that I am. If you believe the Church is universal, then you should use Catholic as the noun and not let some yaddy-hoot insignificant church ruin your choice in defining yourself as a Catholic first and a what-ever second.

I AM a Catholic first why is that so hard to understand—grammar be damned.

If I was ever ordered to shoot a Catholic Priest I’d turn the weapon on the person giving the order. My loyalty is to God and His Church first; before country.

 

[kelvinf]

The economy is very bad in Germany.

Where exactly are you getting your facts from? The economy is very bad based on unemployment, growth or what? And as compared to which country exactly?

 

[expectthebest]

Bottom line is that if don’t pay up, you lose the Sacrements. Is this not the worst form of extortion? Being forced to pay a tax for salvation?

 

[Contarini]

Bottom line is that if don’t pay up, you lose the Sacrements. Is this not the worst form of extortion? Being forced to pay a tax for salvation?

Isn’t paying to support the Church one of the Precepts of the Church? Isn’t it reasonable to expect everyone to do this? I’m not saying that the way it’s done is ideal, but I think folks are looking at this with very American eyes.

Certainly tithes were a legally imposed tax in the Middle Ages. . . .

Edwin

 

[iloveangels]

Where exactly are you getting your facts from? The economy is very bad based on unemployment, growth or what? And as compared to which country exactly?

Following its own performance. See the links below.

euronews.com/2012/09/27/german-job-growth-weakens-further/

articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-09-24/business/sns-rt-us-germany-ifobre88n09b-20120924_1_german-business-business-climate-index-german-economy

finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1024943.shtml

Germany, as you know, is probably in the best shape of any country in the EU, but it’s got huge headwinds. Spain and Greece are tanking and Germany is trying to hold the whole thing together.

This has been going on for quite a while, as you know, being in Germany. Trying to keep Greece in the EU has been a big issue all over Europe. And now there are riots in Spain over austerity measures.

All this is pretty much common knowledge, even here in the states. We do get international news on the Internet.

 

[Millie123]

Bottom line is that if don’t pay up, you lose the Sacrements. Is this not the worst form of extortion? Being forced to pay a tax for salvation?

If this were true, then the German unemployed, disabled, and homeless would be ineligible to receive the sacraments, because they don’t pay taxes.

I think that the bottom line is if you deny your faith, you lose the sacraments. Which is true, if you renounce your faith, it’s the sin of apostasy. You are not eligible to receive the sacraments. Even if they were to receive the sacraments in this state, they are committing a sacrilege, which is more mortal sin. What they need to do is reaffirm their Catholic faith, and make an appointment with a priest in the confessional.

 

[kelvinf]

Following its own performance. See the links below.

euronews.com/2012/09/27/german-job-growth-weakens-further/

articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-09-24/business/sns-rt-us-germany-ifobre88n09b-20120924_1_german-business-business-climate-index-german-economy

finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1024943.shtml

Germany, as you know, is probably in the best shape of any country in the EU, but it’s got huge headwinds. Spain and Greece are tanking and Germany is trying to hold the whole thing together.

This has been going on for quite a while, as you know, being in Germany. Trying to keep Greece in the EU has been a big issue all over Europe. And now there are riots in Spain over austerity measures.

All this is pretty much common knowledge, even here in the states. We do get international news on the Internet.

Of course it’s common knowledge that global growth has weakened since the fall of Lehman Brothers in September 2008. But the German economy is not very bad. Unemployment is about 5,5%. And Germany is expected to have a balanced budget by 2016.

During tough times, strong men might fall, but stronger men would still stand.

 

[expectthebest]

I would argue that being extorted to make a comment about Faith is not the same as truly denying your Faith. I also would argue that Jesus never taught that extorting someone to pay taxes in order to recieve Sacrements was ok. Didn’t Jesus freely give the Sacrements? We are expected to help the Church take care of the Priest and provide for the care of the property, etc. in our local Parish. There is nothing that says we have to support every hair brained thing the Church leaders come up with to spend money on. Where am I wrong here?

 

[Millie123]

I would argue that when you sign a document in front of a government official to publically deny your faith, then you are indeed denying your faith.

As far as taxes go…I would also argue that taxes are not an extortion. They are part of our responsibilities to take care of our society in which we live. If you don’t like the tax system then join together with other individuals to lobby and change the tax law. But, even more to that effect I would say, that as ugly and unfair the tax system is in Germany, it is not quite as ugly as making a public statement to defect from the church. To deny the church Monday-Saturday, but then to attend Sunday Mass under the appearance of a faithful Catholic I think is wrong. What is also wrong, is to expect the church to support your tax fraud. To deny your affiliation with the church to avoid taxes, but then to expect to be a full a participant of the church in which you deny is fraud.

I would also argue that there seems to be a sense of entitlement to the sacraments these days. We are not entitled to the sacraments, they are a gift from God. We say to God during the mass “Lord I am not worthy to receive you under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.” We are not worthy. If we have mortal sins on our soul we should refrain. If we have committed the sin of Apostasy we should refrain.

 

[expectthebest]

I would argue that when you sign a document in front of a government official to publically deny your faith, then you are indeed denying your faith.

Signing a government document means absolutely nothing when it comes to Faith. What you tell a government who should not be asking personal questions anyway in no way defines a person or what they believe. There is lots of history of people being secret Christians under the threat of persecution by government. They were basically telling the government they were not Christians and then they were worshiping in secret. Was this apostacy? I think not. No government has any right to ask someone what there religion is and then penalize them for their answer.

As far as taxes go…I would also argue that taxes are not an extortion. They are part of our responsibilities to take care of our society in which we live. If you don’t like the tax system then join together with other individuals to lobby and change the tax law. But, even more to that effect I would say, that as ugly and unfair the tax system is in Germany, it is not quite as ugly as making a public statement to defect from the church. To deny the church Monday-Saturday, but then to attend Sunday Mass under the appearance of a faithful Catholic I think is wrong. What is also wrong, is to expect the church to support your tax fraud. To deny your affiliation with the church to avoid taxes, but then to expect to be a full a participant of the church in which you deny is fraud.

I would agree that tax law is not in of itself extortion. But, when the Church spends money (assumingly raised by parish donations) to actually fight in court to uphold the law, then denies Sacrements due to the law, the Church is then guilty of extortion or at least being a part of it. As far as tax fraud/law is concerned, I would agree with you except for the fact that the Church actually took a lead roll in supporting the law. It would be very difficult for the parishoners to stand up against that within their own Chruch. In a way, the Church made sure this would continue to be the case by having the governement take forced donations. This cetainly makes sure that parishoners will never be able to fight back against anything they disagree with, right or wrong, by tightening the donations.

I would also argue that there seems to be a sense of entitlement to the sacraments these days. We are not entitled to the sacraments, they are a gift from God. We say to God during the mass “Lord I am not worthy to receive you under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.” We are not worthy. If we have mortal sins on our soul we should refrain. If we have committed the sin of Apostasy we should refrain.

I would agree that we are not entitled the to the Sacrements from God but it is the Churches duty to give out those Sacrements freely. God’s choice was to offer us Sacrements which we do not necessarily deserve. The Church should not be complacent in carrying out God’s Will because it doesn’t think someone paid out as much as they should. Sacrements are to be withheld from those in mortal sin, not from those who decided they would only donate 5% vs 9%.

 

[iloveangels]

Of course it’s common knowledge that global growth has weakened since the fall of Lehman Brothers in September 2008. But the German economy is not very bad. Unemployment is about 5,5%. And Germany is expected to have a balanced budget by 2016.

During tough times, strong men might fall, but stronger men would still stand.

Interesting. Well, there must be some other another reason why Catholics are opting out of the Church by the hundreds of thousands then. Because they are.

 

[iloveangels]

If this were true, then the German unemployed, disabled, and homeless would be ineligible to receive the sacraments, because they don’t pay taxes.

I think that the bottom line is if you deny your faith, you lose the sacraments. Which is true, if you renounce your faith, it’s the sin of apostasy. You are not eligible to receive the sacraments. Even if they were to receive the sacraments in this state, they are committing a sacrilege, which is more mortal sin. What they need to do is reaffirm their Catholic faith, and make an appointment with a priest in the confessional.

It’s that, yes, but it’s also that the Church has been turned into what amounts to merely an arm of the German government. It’s a social welfare agency in Germany. Belonging to the Church there isn’t continent on believing in God, but merely on paying your taxes.

 

[iloveangels]

I would argue that when you sign a document in front of a government official to publically deny your faith, then you are indeed denying your faith.

That means that you agree with the German government, although not quite with the German bishops who are no longer threatening to excommunicate people for not paying their taxes, like they were as late as last month. The bishops are only threatening to remove certain sacraments and services. You can still get married in the Church under certain circumstances, and you can receive sacraments at the end of your life if you are repentant. And since the graveyards are all owned by the government since all religious property in Germany is owned by the government, you can be buried in the same place you would have otherwise anyway.

As far as taxes go…I would also argue that taxes are not an extortion. They are part of our responsibilities to take care of our society in which we live. If you don’t like the tax system then join together with other individuals to lobby and change the tax law.

It’s a pretty wild comment to say that taxes could never be extortion under any circumstances and yet, that it what you are saying here. Some taxes can be extortion. In point of fact, Obamacare is abusive and it’s extortion, particularly since it was enacted against the will of the majority of American voters.

But, even more to that effect I would say, that as ugly and unfair the tax system is in Germany, it is not quite as ugly as making a public statement to defect from the church.

The whole situation is ugly.

To deny the church Monday-Saturday, but then to attend Sunday Mass under the appearance of a faithful Catholic I think is wrong.

But what is it to be a “faithful Catholic?” That’s really the question at hand. Does paying taxes even if you don’t believe in God make you a Catholic? Does not paying taxes even though you believe in God and want to worship make you a non-Catholic?

What is also wrong, is to expect the church to support your tax fraud. To deny your affiliation with the church to avoid taxes, but then to expect to be a full a participant of the church in which you deny is fraud.

So the Church is the enforcing arm of the German government’s social welfare system now?

I would also argue that there seems to be a sense of entitlement to the sacraments these days. We are not entitled to the sacraments, they are a gift from God. We say to God during the mass “Lord I am not worthy to receive you under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.” We are not worthy. If we have mortal sins on our soul we should refrain. If we have committed the sin of Apostasy we should refrain.

I would agree with this, but I’m pretty sure it doesn’t have anything to do with the topic at hand. No bishops appear to be telling us to abstain from the sacraments voluntarily.

 

[Millie123]

“It’s that, yes, but it’s also that the Church has been turned into what amounts to merely an arm of the German government. It’s a social welfare agency in Germany. Belonging to the Church there isn’t continent on believing in God, but merely on paying your taxes.”

I love Angels, I’m not convinced that the Church has been turned into an arm of the German Government. And that it is social service agency in Germany. If you apply this logic to our church in America. You will see that our church has institutions that receive public tax dollars as well. Including Catholic schools, hospitals, hospices, nursing homes, adoption agencies, food kitchens, and other charities. Has our church become an arm of the American government? A social welfare agency?

 

[iloveangels]

“It’s that, yes, but it’s also that the Church has been turned into what amounts to merely an arm of the German government. It’s a social welfare agency in Germany. Belonging to the Church there isn’t continent on believing in God, but merely on paying your taxes.”

I love Angels, I’m not convinced that the Church has been turned into an arm of the German Government. And that it is social service agency in Germany. If you apply this logic to our church in America. You will see that our church has institutions that receive public tax dollars as well. Including Catholic schools, hospitals, hospices, nursing homes, adoption agencies, food kitchens, and other charities. Has our church become an arm of the American government? A social welfare agency?

Part of it has, yes, most certainly. We have large sectors engaged in some social programs who spend a good part of their time in open defiance of the bishops. Some of these things are more government than Church.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

Bottom line is that if don’t pay up, you lose the Sacrements. Is this not the worst form of extortion? Being forced to pay a tax for salvation?

The situation is even far more complicated in the former East Germany (DDR). During communism very little attention was paid to who was or was not paying church tax and the whole system was neglected (understandably).

So, now you have people who were perhaps nominally Catholic (maybe baptized only, for example) who wish to or have returned to the Catholic Church. This has been a huge problem because there are people want to and are receiving the sacraments but still have not done the paperwork to place themselves on the tax roles–some because they just don’t want to pay and some because they don’t agree with the system at all.

Now with the new crackdown these individuals will theoretically be forced to get on the tax roles or be refused the sacraments. Note that the people in this particular, minority situation are not apostate and have never ever formally renounced their faith. Yet, at least according to the rules they have to pay or they are excommunicated. Granted, there are far, far fewer Catholics in the former DDR than there are in the West. But I think for someone under these particular circumstances, this ruling equates to simony and is very wrong.

Also the system as it exists leaves no room for people who due to conscience object to the whole notion of a church tax.

Makes me very thankful for the separation of church and state.