German Bishops: Catholics Who Formally Leave Church Cannot Receive Sacraments

[Millie123]

“That means that you agree with the German government, although not quite with the German bishops who are no longer threatening to excommunicate people for not paying their taxes, like they were as late as last month. The bishops are only threatening to remove certain sacraments and services. You can still get married in the Church under certain circumstances, and you can receive sacraments at the end of your life if you are repentant.”

That’s not what it says in the article that the OP posted and as far as repenting at the end of life goes. That has always been the policy of the Catholic church, to let people repent. If we have people who are dying who are separated from the church that desire to repent, then the church allows it, welcomes it, and encourages it. We do not wish people to die separated from Christ’s church.

“It’s a pretty wild comment to say that taxes could never be extortion under any circumstances and yet, that it what you are saying here. Some taxes can be extortion. In point of fact, Obamacare is abusive and it’s extortion, particularly since it was enacted against the will of the majority of American voters.”

That’s funny, I have no idea where you came to that conclusion that that is what I’m saying from my comment. I agree that Obamacare is abusive and extortion. I challenge you to find me the Catholic official who has betrayed their faith. The people who come to mind are Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden. They have betrayed the faith. But the Catholic Bishops and Priests are staying firm to Catholic Principles even though the result is it is costing money, and public ridicule. Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden by their actions have denied their faith, our Bishops and Priests embrace it.

“No bishops appear to be telling us to abstain from the sacraments voluntarily.”

It is an expectation of our church of our church to refrain from the sacrament if we are in the state of mortal sin. In fact if you receive the sacraments in the state of mortal sin it is a sacrilege.

BQ—Can anyone tell me how to use the multiquote function?

 

[kempo1]

Its seems to me that the bishops and the laity are suffering due to a bad decision to include the government in the setup of how churches function in germany. The bishops are torn between having to follow church law and governmental laws and so are the laity. None of them should have to be put in this circumstance. Seems to me a bad system put in place for an earlier time no longer suffices according to the condition of the economy today. My God what a terrible mess. We all should pray for the Bishops and the laity.

 

[iloveangels]

That’s not what it says in the article that the OP posted and as far as repenting at the end of life goes. That has always been the policy of the Catholic church, to let people repent. If we have people who are dying who are separated from the church that desire to repent, then the church allows it, welcomes it, and encourages it. We do not wish people to die separated from Christ’s church.

Now that’s correct, but up until about a week ago, people were being threatened with flat out excommunication for not paying their taxes. Now, this week, they’ve walked back from that, because I can’t imagine that the bishops really want that. People who don’t pay their taxes don’t get excommunicated, the government’s opinion notwithstanding. The German bishops have carefully backed away from that. It is apparently possible to receive limited sacraments now. And honestly I’m not sure how they’re going to check some of it. It sounds like a mess of paperwork to me.

That’s funny, I have no idea where you came to that conclusion that that is what I’m saying from my comment. I agree that Obamacare is abusive and extortion. I challenge you to find me the Catholic official who has betrayed their faith. The people who come to mind are Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden. They have betrayed the faith. But the Catholic Bishops and Priests are staying firm to Catholic Principles even though the result is it is costing money, and public ridicule. Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden by their actions have denied their faith, our Bishops and Priests embrace it.

usccb.org/news/2012/12-062e.cfm

It is an expectation of our church to refrain from the sacrament if we are in the state of mortal sin. In fact if you receive the sacraments in the state of mortal sin it is a sacrilege.

This is true, but nevertheless in this context it is a non-sequitur.

BQ—Can anyone tell me how to use the multiquote function?

Go to the lower left hand corner where there’s a little blue icon with " marks in it. Click. Keep clicking on all the things you want to reply to as you go through the thread. When you’re ready to write, click the POST REPLY button in the lower left hand corner of your screen and voila, there will be your things to reply to.

Don’t remove the quote tags. That’s what you’re doing now and it makes your replies hard to read.

 

[Millie123]

Now that’s correct, but up until about a week ago, people were being threatened with flat out excommunication for not paying their taxes. Now, this week, they’ve walked back from that, because I can’t imagine that the bishops really want that. People who don’t pay their taxes don’t get excommunicated, the government’s opinion notwithstanding. The German bishops have carefully backed away from that. It is apparently possible to receive limited sacraments now. And honestly I’m not sure how they’re going to check some of it. It sounds like a mess of paperwork to me.

Four little letters: LCWR
**You mean the group of nuns who are openly defying the Bishops. So do you support people who defy the Bishops or don’t you? It seems to be a double standard. **

This is true, but nevertheless in this context it is a non-sequitur.
It’s not a non-sequitur. My statement is that people who deny their faith and defy their Bishops are committing mortal sins. And should refrain from the sacraments. It certainly is relevant to the conversation.

Go to the lower left hand corner where there’s a little blue icon with " marks in it. Click. Keep clicking on all the things you want to reply to as you go through the thread. When you’re ready to write, click the POST REPLY button in the lower left hand corner of your screen and voila, there will be your things to reply to.

Don’t remove the quote tags. That’s what you’re doing now and it makes it hard to read.

Thank you for your advice I hope this is easier to read

 

[iloveangels]

Thank you for your advice I hope this is easier to read

The formatting is still not turning out quite right. Don’t remove the quote tags.

There’s also a lot of fuzziness here. You asked me who was defying the Church because I had said that there was a wing of the Church that was treating the Church like a social welfare agency. I replied with a link to the doctrinal investigation of the LCWR, which the CDF has indicated as doing exactly that. If you look at those documents you will find, in so many words, exactly that assessment by the CDF. I haven’t hauled it out of the documents and posted it directly but I suppose I could if I have to.

The situation in Germany is a lot more complex than what you have indicated. There are many very good articles linked in these threads, and available via internet searches. You might want to read some of them so we can talk more precisely about Germany.

Again, don’t remove the quote tags, which are the little strings of text inside the ] marks. That’s a good part of the problem you’re having.

 

[panevino]

Correct me if wrong
The government decides how to distribute the income tax collected.
They give a portion of the tax to help fund religious institutions and infrastructure needs, health , education, etc…

To accurately distribute the money for religion they call for individuals to name their faith.

Now some individuals decide, I’m no longer catholic, or Lutheran etc and formAlly tell the govt in writing.

Once this happens, there tax bill remains the same. The only change being that a portion (~8%) of of the tax bill is redirected by the govt.

Or is their tax bill reduced?

 

[iloveangels]

Correct me if wrong
The government decides how to distribute the income tax collected.
They give a portion of the tax to help fund religious institutions and infrastructure needs, health , education, etc…

To accurately distribute the money for religion they call for individuals to name their faith.

Now some individuals decide, I’m no longer catholic, or Lutheran etc and formAlly tell the govt in writing.

Once this happens, there tax bill remains the same. The only change being that a portion (~8%) of of the tax bill is redirected by the govt.

Or is their tax bill reduced?

Their tax bill is reduced.

The other thing is that German citizens aren’t really asked. If you receive sacraments as an infant, you are automatically signed up. Some people are surprised to find themselves signed up when they check later. It’s pretty automatic.

The only time you actually get asked really, is if you are a foreign national coming as an adult to work in the country. And then you have to be sure they get it right. Apparently they make mistakes a lot from what I’m reading on the net, signing people up as Evangelicals if they can’t figure out what you said…LOL.

 

[dskysmine]

Interesting. Well, there must be some other another reason why Catholics are opting out of the Church by the hundreds of thousands then. Because they are.

There are several possible reasons, but I would not say that weakness in the Economy is one of them.
The priest Scandal was and still is a motivator for a lot of people leaving the church, simply because here in Germany you have to do what you preach or people will not believe you. There was a sense of moral superiority that people saw in the Catholic Church that was destroyed by that.
The Social importante of the Church has declined. The government in Germany has social nets that will guarantee you have a roof over your head regardless of your possessions (most people living outside do so because they don’t want to live in state houses). This has made Catholic Church Charities lose their significant impact, although there are still a lot of them that provide food at least once a day.
The secularisation of society is also an important factor. You can’t really use religion or Faith as an argument when you are discussing with a German… even if he is Catholic.
People just don’t see the practical interest in going to Church or professing their Faith. Most of Germans are peaceful and rational regardless of religious affiliation. Being a good citizen that works for the common good is not something that distinguishes Christians or any religion at all. Although there are protestant and Catholic Churches for all tastes (I am talking more in terms of Liturgy here) there is no significant difference between people in both sides so relativization abounds.
I am not saying that Germany is a Social paradise or anything like that, but it a pretty well functioning oil machine considering the circumstances (less than 20 years ago it was 2 countries).
The things that move people are things that trigger your emotions and awareness like Music Festivals, drugs, sports, etc…
Of course I don’t agree with all this, but it’s hard to convice someone that is content without going to Church of the importance of going to Church if there are no real consequences for their day to day life…
It’s not like I can tell them that God is going to send hail and storms because they are sinning.

God bless,
D.

 

[gus]

There are several possible reasons, but I would not say that weakness in the Economy is one of them.
The priest Scandal was and still is a motivator for a lot of people leaving the church, simply because here in Germany you have to do what you preach or people will not believe you. There was a sense of moral superiority that people saw in the Catholic Church that was destroyed by that.
The Social importante of the Church has declined. The government in Germany has social nets that will guarantee you have a roof over your head regardless of your possessions (most people living outside do so because they don’t want to live in state houses). This has made Catholic Church Charities lose their significant impact, although there are still a lot of them that provide food at least once a day.
The secularisation of society is also an important factor. You can’t really use religion or Faith as an argument when you are discussing with a German… even if he is Catholic.
People just don’t see the practical interest in going to Church or professing their Faith. Most of Germans are peaceful and rational regardless of religious affiliation. Being a good citizen that works for the common good is not something that distinguishes Christians or any religion at all. Although there are protestant and Catholic Churches for all tastes (I am talking more in terms of Liturgy here) there is no significant difference between people in both sides so relativization abounds.
I am not saying that Germany is a Social paradise or anything like that, but it a pretty well functioning oil machine considering the circumstances (less than 20 years ago it was 2 countries).
The things that move people are things that trigger your emotions and awareness like Music Festivals, drugs, sports, etc…
Of course I don’t agree with all this, but it’s hard to convice someone that is content without going to Church of the importance of going to Church if there are no real consequences for their day to day life…
It’s not like I can tell them that God is going to send hail and storms because they are sinning.

God bless,
D.

Reasons for leaving the Church are a non-issue in this discussion.
Anyone is free to leave.
But don’t leave and still expect to be
a Catholic
That’s gross hypocracy

 

[iloveangels]

There are several possible reasons, but I would not say that weakness in the Economy is one of them.
The priest Scandal was and still is a motivator for a lot of people leaving the church, simply because here in Germany you have to do what you preach or people will not believe you. There was a sense of moral superiority that people saw in the Catholic Church that was destroyed by that.
The Social importante of the Church has declined. The government in Germany has social nets that will guarantee you have a roof over your head regardless of your possessions (most people living outside do so because they don’t want to live in state houses). This has made Catholic Church Charities lose their significant impact, although there are still a lot of them that provide food at least once a day.
The secularisation of society is also an important factor. You can’t really use religion or Faith as an argument when you are discussing with a German… even if he is Catholic.
People just don’t see the practical interest in going to Church or professing their Faith. Most of Germans are peaceful and rational regardless of religious affiliation. Being a good citizen that works for the common good is not something that distinguishes Christians or any religion at all. Although there are protestant and Catholic Churches for all tastes (I am talking more in terms of Liturgy here) there is no significant difference between people in both sides so relativization abounds.
I am not saying that Germany is a Social paradise or anything like that, but it a pretty well functioning oil machine considering the circumstances (less than 20 years ago it was 2 countries).
The things that move people are things that trigger your emotions and awareness like Music Festivals, drugs, sports, etc…
Of course I don’t agree with all this, but it’s hard to convice someone that is content without going to Church of the importance of going to Church if there are no real consequences for their day to day life…
It’s not like I can tell them that God is going to send hail and storms because they are sinning.

God bless,
D.

Thanks for your very well written reply. Yes, we have the same thing going on with vast number of our population too.

We still have a rather small core of serious Christians, objectively speaking, but they’re not very important to the population as a whole. The population as a whole is dismissive of Christians because precisely they don’t seem to practice what they preach or believe what they say–aka because they are so into political correctness and money. Same as you describe. By Christian, I include Catholic.

The child abuse scandals hit the non-catholic population like an atomic explosion here, just like they did there. Catholics have very little credibility among non-Catholics which hasn’t always been the case, but is now. There used to be a glamorous and positive impression in the popular culture about the Catholic Church, aka Bing Crosby movies and lovely habited nuns etc, but that is now completely gone.

We are being openly attacked here. Americans are not as peace-loving and civil-minded as Germans are. We have 1st & 2nd German-American immigrant communities here that I’ve lived in and they are different from the general population in the US, which is much more individualistic and hateful/violent in nature. I understand what you mean to say in that way too, to some small degree because of my experiences with that.

And you are correct, shaming people for living together before marriage, just as an example, goes absolutely nowhere in the popular culture, with the general population and even with some Catholics. If you do that, even if you don’t mention HELL, you are likely to be called all kinds of names and treated very badly.

Actually that also exists to instances of homosexuality and all kinds of other things which are, according to Church law, tradition, Scripture and teaching, held to be objective disorders and/or sinful behaviors by the Church.

IF I understand your post well, I think you are saying that the reasons for staying seem not to be BIGGER than the reasons for leaving. Reasons for leaving might be the tax money or the ability to protest the way things are working. Correct?

 

[iloveangels]

Reasons for leaving the Church are a non-issue in this discussion.
…

Gus, look at the title of the thread. It’s ABOUT Germans leaving the Church.

 

[Godfollower]

Suppose the U.S. decided to impose a tax on certain religions (for the sake of argument, let’s assume that it somehow got past the courts despite the First Amendment), and among other things they said “The Catholic Church is anti-American and a drain on society, so we’re taxing Americans 10% of their income if they belong to the Catholic Church. But we won’t impose the tax if you deny the Catholic Church.”

Wouldn’t such a denial of the Church constitute apostasy? Wouldn’t the mere fact of signing such a form deny you (most of) the Sacraments?

Isn’t that basically what’s happening in Germany (although the tax is for beneficial purposes)? Or am I missing something?

 

[iloveangels]

Suppose the U.S. decided to impose a tax on certain religions (for the sake of argument, let’s assume that it somehow got past the courts despite the First Amendment), and among other things they said “The Catholic Church is anti-American and a drain on society, so we’re taxing Americans 10% of their income if they belong to the Catholic Church. But we won’t impose the tax if you deny the Catholic Church.”

Wouldn’t such a denial of the Church constitute apostasy? Wouldn’t the mere fact of signing such a form deny you (most of) the Sacraments?

Isn’t that basically what’s happening in Germany (although the tax is for beneficial purposes)? Or am I missing something?

That’s very close to what the Germans have, in effect, even though:

a) the system wasn’t intended to be that when it was put into place, and

b) the system returns the money minus 3-4% for collection, to the churches to do with as they please, which then the individual has no control over. The Catholic church in Germany has a very low mass attendance rate and the money is used to run many quasi-governmental charity agencies, nurseries, old-folks homes and so on. It’s very much a social welfare system and that’s why many Germans not only tolerate it, but pay the taxes. Social welfare is considered a good thing in German culture which is very civil-minded. Germans in their culture tend not to be as individualistic and impulsive as Americans.

The German government just this past week handed down a ruling that said exactly that not paying the tax = leaving the church 100%.

The German bishops, however, were threatening people with flat-out excommunication for not paying their taxes before this last week. But now they’re claiming that it will cause denial of services, which may or may not be exactly the same thing.

 

[Denimguy]

Didn’t something like this start a movement in the 1500s’

This smacks of simony and if not it is atop a very thin line bordering it. Cultural differences apart, belief in Christ & worship is not something that can be purchased nor should it be, whether by taxes or indulgences (remember where that got to because of a few folks stretching the rules).

 

[iloveangels]

Didn’t something like this start a movement in the 1500s’

This smacks of simony and if not it is atop a very thin line bordering it. Cultural differences apart, belief in Christ & worship is not something that can be purchased nor should it be, whether by taxes or indulgences (remember where that got to because of a few folks stretching the rules).

Yes, this kind of thing has been a big issue in the Church before. Instances of it, or something very much like it, are associated with kicking off the reformation in Germany, yes.

You’d think the Church would be smarter than to get itself into this kind of situation, if for no other reason than public opinion, but apparently not. Especially since they are still in a lot of trouble over the child abuse scandals in both Germany and here. Catholics tend to under-estimate the effect of that fiasco in the general culture by a factor of at least 1000 to 1. That issue hit the general population like an atom bomb. Our reputation is dirt in many places. Worse than dirt. All those nice Bing Crosby, pretty nun, “candles and carols” vibes are gone, gone, gone. As you can see by the way we’re currently getting attacked here in the states.

None of this “church-government partnering” business is at all smart in my opinion. Especially since for the sake of the Gospel all this is so unnecessary. People get wrapped up in all the money and power that goes with these government-driven “apostolates” which are really social welfare schemes paid for by the government but manned by people hired by the Church, that they lose sight of what’s supposed to be going on in Catholic institutions. Again my opinion, for what that’s worth. Put it with $1.50 and you can get a cup of coffee. I’m just a layperson.

 

[Cristiano]

Gus, look at the title of the thread. It’s ABOUT Germans leaving the Church.

I thought that it was about the fact that apostates should not present themselves to receive sacraments and how it is formalized, I did not see anything discussing different treatments based on the reasons for apostasy.

 

[Godfollower]

That’s very close to what the Germans have, in effect, even though:

a) the system wasn’t intended to be that when it was put into place, and

b) the system returns the money minus 3-4% for collection, to the churches to do with as they please, which then the individual has no control over. The Catholic church in Germany has a very low mass attendance rate and the money is used to run many quasi-governmental charity agencies, nurseries, old-folks homes and so on. It’s very much a social welfare system and that’s why many Germans not only tolerate it, but pay the taxes. Social welfare is considered a good thing in German culture which is very civil-minded. Germans in their culture tend not to be as individualistic and impulsive as Americans.

The German government just this past week handed down a ruling that said exactly that not paying the tax = leaving the church 100%.

The German bishops, however, were threatening people with flat-out excommunication for not paying their taxes before this last week. But now they’re claiming that it will cause denial of services, which may or may not be exactly the same thing.

Didn’t something like this start a movement in the 1500s’

This smacks of simony and if not it is atop a very thin line bordering it. Cultural differences apart, belief in Christ & worship is not something that can be purchased nor should it be, whether by taxes or indulgences (remember where that got to because of a few folks stretching the rules).

Again, I don’t think the Church said “If you refuse to pay the tax, you’re denied the Sacraments.” I think the Church said “If you renounce the faith, you’re denied the Sacraments.” And the way some Germans are getting out of paying the tax is by renouncing the faith.

Renouncing the faith has various consequences. One is you get out of paying Germany’s religion tax. Another is you can’t receive the Sacraments.

In effect, Germans who don’t renounce the faith are minor martyrs for incurring the tax. Those who do renounce the faith aren’t Catholics any more.

Yes?

 

[iloveangels]

I thought that it was about the fact that apostates should not present themselves to receive sacraments and how it is formalized, I did not see anything discussing different treatments based on the reasons for apostasy.

Christiano, I have no idea what you’re talking about.

The German government is involved because of a court case, in Germany where this is happening, involving a retired professor of theology who was contesting the idea that “paying taxes” = “belonging to the Catholic church.”

He apparently lost both his government court case and his Church ruling this last week. Read the article for more details. dw.de/dw/article/0,16263113,00.html

According to the German government, “paying church taxes” exactly equals “belonging to the Catholic Church” regardless of any other factors, such as practice, faith, etc.

According to the German bishops, “not paying church taxes” exactly equals “loss of sacraments and services” according to a rather complicated scheme.

Are they the same thing? Some say no; some say yes. The bishops and the government appear to be saying yes. Most don’t know. I’m wondering if there will be a clarification.

 

[Cristiano]

…The German bishops, however, were threatening people with flat-out excommunication for not paying their taxes before this last week. But now they’re claiming that it will cause denial of services, which may or may not be exactly the same thing.

Please would you be so kind to provide a link to the Bishops document that talks about flat out excommunication for not paying taxes?

 

[iloveangels]

Again, I don’t think the Church said “If you refuse to pay the tax, you’re denied the Sacraments.” I think the Church said “If you renounce the faith, you’re denied the Sacraments.” And the way some Germans are getting out of paying the tax is by renouncing the faith.

Renouncing the faith has various consequences. One is you get out of paying Germany’s religion tax. Another is you can’t receive the Sacraments.

In effect, Germans who don’t renounce the faith are minor martyrs for incurring the tax. Those who do renounce the faith aren’t Catholics any more.

Yes?

No, because the taxes and the renouncement are the exact same paperwork, they said BOTH. Not paying your taxes is precisely not getting the sacraments.

That’s how the system is set up in Germany.

I’m sure that all those people in Germany who were signed up as Catholics at birth, who never go to church and never receive the sacraments, but who pay into the system because it’s REALLY a social welfare system and they see good in that or hope to use it one day, would be amused by your calling them “minor martyrs.” In fact, many of them are such minor martyrs that they can’t be bothered to go to church once in a while.

I’ll say it again: The culture is different in Germany than it is here. Read the articles and think about this. It’s different than here in some very detailed ways.