German Bishops: Catholics Who Formally Leave Church Cannot Receive Sacraments

[Cristiano]

Christiano, I have no idea what you’re talking about.

The German government is involved because of a court case, in Germany where this is happening, involving a retired professor of theology who was contesting the idea that “paying taxes” = “belonging to the Catholic church.”

He apparently lost both his government court case and his Church ruling this last week. Read the article for more details. dw.de/dw/article/0,16263113,00.html

According to the German government, “paying church taxes” exactly equals “belonging to the Catholic Church” regardless of any other factors, such as practice, faith, etc.

According to the German bishops, “not paying church taxes” exactly equals “loss of sacraments and services” according to a rather complicated scheme.

Are they the same thing? Some say no; some say yes. Most don’t know. I’m wondering if there will be a clarification.

The German government statements are non essential in regard to Church justice.
The German Bishops talked about formal apostasy in order to avoid tax payment. As far as I know the German Bishops never talked about taxes, they talked about public apostasy through the filing of government forms and they talked about the disobedience to one of the precepts of the Church. A Bishop here in the Sates made similar comments in regard to assent to the teachings of the Church.
To say that they are the same thing is a logical fallacy, cause and effect are not the same thing.

 

[Cristiano]

No, because the taxes and the renouncement are the exact same paperwork, they said BOTH. Not paying your taxes is precisely not getting the sacraments…

This is a logical fallacy. The paperwork is public denial of the faith, as consequence people are not asked by the government to paid taxes. Public denial of the faith and disobedience to the precepts of the Church brings in separation from the sacraments and that is not excommunication either. First and foremost is CCL 916 second is CCL 915.

 

[iloveangels]

This is a logical fallacy. The paperwork is public denial of the faith, as consequence people are not asked by the government to paid taxes. Public denial of the faith and disobedience to the precepts of the Church brings in separation from the sacraments and that is not excommunication either. First and foremost is CCL 916 second is CCL 915.

It would be if they thought of it that way, but not everyone does or is, you understand. It’s much more complicated than what you have here…

The German culture is different than the one you’re in. In the US, you sign up for church membership and maintain it or they drop you off the rolls. It’s assumed here that if you are on the church rolls, you believe in God and practice some part of the faith. Not so in Germany, where an entirely different set of expectations are the norm.

 

[Cristiano]

It would be if they thought of it that way, but not everyone does or is, you understand. It’s much more complicated than what you have here…

The German culture is different than the one you’re in. In the US, you sign up for church membership and maintain it or they drop you off the rolls. It’s assumed here that if you are on the church rolls, you believe in God and practice some part of the faith. Not so in Germany, where an entirely different set of expectations are the norm.

This is not matter of German culture it is matter of Catholic culture. If you are a Catholic you do not publicly deny your faith and you obey the precepts of the Church. If you do not like what the government does then you elect people to change the law. People that do not have the faith can drop from the government rolls, avoid paying taxes, and for sure they should not expect to be part of something that they do not believe in.

 

[iloveangels]

The German government statements are non essential in regard to Church justice.
The German Bishops talked about formal apostasy in order to avoid tax payment. As far as I know the German Bishops never talked about taxes, they talked about public apostasy through the filing of government forms and they talked about the disobedience to one of the precepts of the Church. A Bishop here in the Sates made similar comments in regard to assent to the teachings of the Church.
To say that they are the same thing is a logical fallacy, cause and effect are not the same thing.

1. The taxing system is optional. The Churches can opt out of it if they wish. The Catholic Church has chosen to remain in this system, meaning that it has their approval. The Methodist Church in Germany, for instance, does not participate in this system at their option.
2. “PARIS, Sept 21 (Reuters)- Germany’s Roman Catholic bishops have decreed that people who opt out of a “church tax” should not be given sacraments and religious burials, getting tougher on worshippers who choose not to pay..”

Up until this court decision, bishops have been threatening people with excommunication for not paying the taxes and then showing up for the sacraments to practice their faith.

1. There is no formal method for getting out of taxes and still remaining a member of the Church. The court case, that was decided this last week, was a test of the system by a retired theology professor named Hartmut Zapp. If you really want to understand this issue, you should read about that. He said that you could fail to pay the tax money and remain Catholic. He lost the court case and the bishops agreed with that decision in public.

 

[iloveangels]

This is not matter of German culture it is matter of Catholic culture. If you are a Catholic you do not publicly deny your faith and you obey the precepts of the Church. If you do not like what the government does then you elect people to change the law. People that do not have the faith can drop from the government rolls, avoid paying taxes, and for sure they should not expect to be part of something that they do not believe in.

We seem to be discussing the exact same issue in two different threads. Please see forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9831325&postcount=102 for my answer to both of your objections, which are essentially the same in each place.

 

[Cristiano]

1. The taxing system is optional. The Churches can opt out of it if they wish. The Catholic Church has chosen to remain in this system, meaning that it has their approval. The Methodist Church in Germany, for instance, does not participate in this system at their option.

The Church says that it is fine that the government can collect money for her mission from people that affirm to be Catholics and only from them. The Church is not forcing the elected government into that.

1. “PARIS, Sept 21 (Reuters)- Germany’s Roman Catholic bishops have decreed that people who opt out of a “church tax” should not be given sacraments and religious burials, getting tougher on worshippers who choose not to pay..”

Up until this court decision, bishops have been threatening people with excommunication for not paying the taxes and then showing up for the sacraments to practice their faith.

You are still saying something false. First the bishop have talked about people that publicly deny their faith, and opting out is an act of public denial. You are still mixing cause and effect the cause is the main problem and not the effect. The Bishop have not threatened excommunication but you keep saying so without providing any evidence. If you want to argue against the justice system of the Church then you have to address the legal system of the Church and not people’s interpretation of it.

1. There is no formal method for getting out of taxes and still remaining a member of the Church. The court case, that was decided this last week, was a test of the system by a retired theology professor named Hartmut Zapp. If you really want to understand this issue, you should read about that. He said that you could fail to pay the tax money and remain Catholic. He lost the court case and the bishops agreed with that decision in public.

I read about it and again you are misrepresenting the situation. The citizens of Germany are subject to the laws of the government that they elected. The Catholics are subject to the rules of the Church. As long as the government forces you to declare your religion the problem is not with the Church but with you proclaiming or denying your religion and with the government deciding to tax you on that. People can vote the law out of the books through the legal system and not through public denial of their faith, it is just part of the political process.

 

[Cristiano]

We seem to be discussing the exact same issue in two different threads. Please see forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9831325&postcount=102 for my answer to both of your objections, which are essentially the same in each place.

Good point, we should keep the discussion limited to that thread.

 

[iloveangels]

Cristiano:
The fact remains that the Catholic bishops of Germany have opted into the taxing system, even though they could raise their funds some other way. Therefore, they approve of the system. Even though mass attendance rates are very low–ONLY 13% of those registered as Catholic in Germany actually go to Mass–the German Catholic system is one of the wealthiest in the world because of this tax system.

The Catholic bishops in Germany do not provide a way to pay a tithe which is not a government tax. They do not explain why this is, but they strongly resist the idea. They will take money in addition to the tax, but they will not take it instead of the tax.

Hartmut Zapp’s contention that you could not pay the tax but still remain Catholic is the key point here. Apparently this is not possible in Germany, according to both the German government who ruled it illegal, and the Catholic bishops who ruled it unacceptable. Papers were filed in both places against Hartmut Zapp and his idea.

Hartmut Zapp is a retired theology professor who was testing the notion of not paying the tax while remaining Catholic, a situation that exists freely in most other countries. I hope he has not lost his retirement benefits as a result.

Whatever happened to: “Then he said to them, “So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”” Matthew 22:21.

 

[Cristiano]

The fact remains that the Catholic bishops of Germany have opted into the taxing system, even though they could raise their funds some other way. Therefore, they approve of the system. Even though mass attendance rates are very low–ONLY 13% of those registered as Catholic in Germany actually go to Mass–the German Catholic system is one of the wealthiest in the world because of this tax system.

The Catholic bishops in Germany do not provide a way to pay a tithe which is not a government tax. They do not explain why this is, but they strongly resist the idea. They will take money in addition to the tax, but they will not take it instead of the tax.

Hartmut Zapp’s contention that you could not pay the tax but still remain Catholic is the key point here. Apparently this is not possible in Germany, according to both the German government who ruled it illegal, and the Catholic bishops who ruled it unacceptable. Papers were filed in both places against Hartmut Zapp and his idea.

Hartmut Zapp is a retired theology professor who was testing the notion of not paying the tax while remaining Catholic, a situation that exists freely in most other countries. I hope he has not lost his retirement benefits as a result.

It is quite evident to me, also from your description, that the problem is not with the Church but with the majority of self proclaimed Catholics, and sadly a large numbers of priests too. People are free to leave the Church and if the 83% that does not attend Mass wants to leave they have the prerogative to do so; however, they do not have the prerogative to ask for something that they should not ask anyway because they already have separated themselves from the sacraments. What is pathetic here that people prefer to blame the Church instead of participating in the political life to change the laws of a democratic country. I still do not understand how a theologian can claim to still be a catholic while committing a public act of apostasy. However as a citizen of a secular government he can argue that it is illegal for the government to establish such categories among the citizens and/or to collect that specific tax, or that there should be political action to abrogate that law. My point is that I do not understand how can Catholics can celebrate the martyrs through the Eucharistic prayer and then reject their sacrifice by blaming the Church instead of changing the political system and the laws.

 

[iloveangels]

It is quite evident to me, also from your description, that the problem is not with the Church but with the majority of self proclaimed Catholics, and sadly a large numbers of priests too.

Are you actually reading the articles about GERMANY? People don’t self-proclaim to get on church rolls in Germany. They get signed up at birth. Everybody starts out signed up to pay these taxes. You have to sign papers and pay a fee to get off the tax lists, not the other way around. It’s the exact opposite of what we have here.

People are free to leave the Church and if the 83% that does not attend Mass wants to leave they have the prerogative to do so; however, they do not have the prerogative to ask for something that they should not ask anyway because they already have separated themselves from the sacraments.

The number of people who are coming back to the church after signing the papers and trying to get sacraments is very small. These declarations are designed to PREVENT people from leaving, many of whom don’t practice the faith anyway. Part of this is a consequence of the abuse scandals which also happened in Germany. There the Church operates a huge system of schools for the government, where they have contact with many kids. Many people are deciding either that they don’t want to pay the taxes anymore or that they don’t like the social welfare system the way it is. (also 100-13=87)

What is pathetic here that people prefer to blame the Church instead of participate in the political life to change the laws of a democratic country. I still do not understand how a theologian can claim to still be a catholic while committing a public act of apostasy.

He was testing the law because of the theology involved. This situation is very peculiar from a theological point of view. It’s actually somewhat similar to other situations that have occurred in Church history. And they’ve generally been catastrophic for the Church. What the German bishops are doing may turn out, as in the past, to be very dangerous for the Church.

However as a citizen of a secular government he can argue that it is illegal for the government to establish such categories among the citizens and/or to collect that specific tax, or that there should be political action to abrogate that law.

Yes, he can. He challenged the government’s law. He lost, but laws can be challenged and sometimes should be challenged if they seem to be immoral, inaccurate, unfortunate, etc.

My point is that I do not understand how can Catholics can celebrate the martyrs through the Eucharistic prayer and then reject their sacrifice by blaming the Church instead of changing the political system and the laws.

Many of the people involved are not doing that. Many people pay into this system because it provides a social welfare system in Germany. It’s a sort of church-government partnership that benefits society and that is its sole value for many Germans, including many who pay the taxes but don’t go to church.

Like I said, Catholic mass attendance in Germany (as well as in many other areas in Europe) is very, very low. Much, much lower than in Texas, I would imagine. That’s the condition Europe is in these days.

 

[Phemie]

I still do not understand how a theologian can claim to still be a catholic while committing a public act of apostasy.

My understanding is that he did not want to commit an act of heresy. He wanted to stop paying the tax without defecting from the Church. The state said he couldn’t; as long as he didn’t defect he had to pay the tax.

 

[Cristiano]

Are you actually reading the articles about GERMANY? People don’t self-proclaim to get on church rolls in Germany. They get signed up at birth. Everybody starts out paying taxes. You have to sign papers and pay a fee to get off the tax lists, not the other way around. It’s the exact opposite of what we have here…

I am sorry for confusing you. When I said self proclaimed I am talking about people that call themselves Catholics but then do not accept the Church teachings. I was not referring to people proclaiming to be Catholic and thus getting into the tax rolls.

I also think that automatic enrollment is a stupid secular law that should be changed through a political process. I personally despise the opt out legal burden, and that is quite common here in the USA too when it comes to immoral schools’ regulations. I also believe that a Catholic should not due politics through denial of the faith.

I think that the law could eliminated or changed to a system similar to the Italian one where people can declare to which charity the 0.8% of taxes will go, and the tax is always there independently of any religious affiliation or belief.

 

[iloveangels]

My understanding is that he did not want to commit an act of heresy. He wanted to stop paying the tax without defecting from the Church. The state said he couldn’t; as long as he didn’t defect he had to pay the tax.

Correct, as I understand it, yes.

dw.de/dw/article/0,16263113,00.html

 

[iloveangels]

I am sorry for confusing you. When I said self proclaimed I am talking about people that call themselves Catholics but then do not accept the Church teachings. I was not referring to people proclaiming to be Catholic and thus getting into the tax rolls.

I’m not really sure how much this even enters into this decision by the courts and the bishops. The whole situation is different than the situation we have.

I also think that automatic enrollment is a stupid secular law that should be changed through a political process. I personally despise the opt out legal burden, and that is quite common here in the USA too when it comes to immoral schools’ regulations. I also believe that a Catholic should not due politics through denial of the faith.

I think that the law could eliminated or changed to a system similar to the Italian one where people can declare to which charity the 0.8% of taxes will go, and the tax is always there independently of any religious affiliation or belief.

Yes, well, this is the law that the Germans have on the books and it’s an old one. Their history is very different from ours, since in the past in Germany, all the Church property was confiscated by the government and reparations were made and all kinds of things like that. Some of the legal language even dates from the 2nd world war era. ETc ETc. It’s up to the Germans what they do with the law. It’s their country, not ours.

The reason people are talking about it is because people wonder if this can happen, and things something like this have happened before in Church history–even in Germany–and they’ve not turned out well at all for the Church. And you have to admit, it’s a peculiar thing from a theological point of view. Which was Hartmut Zapp’s objection, apparently.

 

[iloveangels]

Again, I don’t think the Church said “If you refuse to pay the tax, you’re denied the Sacraments.” I think the Church said “If you renounce the faith, you’re denied the Sacraments.” And the way some Germans are getting out of paying the tax is by renouncing the faith.

Renouncing the faith has various consequences. One is you get out of paying Germany’s religion tax. Another is you can’t receive the Sacraments.

In effect, Germans who don’t renounce the faith are minor martyrs for incurring the tax. Those who do renounce the faith aren’t Catholics any more.

Yes?

You got quotes or is this just what you want to say?

 

[gus]

In order to avoid the tax you have to formally deny you belief. That’s the rule. No believing Catholic would ever do this. Only an apostate would even consider it.
When you formally deny your beliefs you cause great scandel. You become fodder for the press 's anti-Catholic mill.
To then demand the rights of being a Catholic
Is is beyond ludicrous.
People who leave and the press want it both ways.

 

[gus]

If you think the morally wrong then petition the the government to change the law.
Or emplore your bishop to not except money
Expemt Catholics from the law

 

[gus]

I would argue that being extorted to make a comment about Faith is not the same as truly denying your Faith. I also would argue that Jesus never taught that extorting someone to pay taxes in order to recieve Sacrements was ok. Didn’t Jesus freely give the Sacrements? We are expected to help the Church take care of the Priest and provide for the care of the property, etc. in our local Parish. There is nothing that says we have to support every hair brained thing the Church leaders come up with to spend money on. Where am I wrong here?

Read the book of Acts on lying about your wealth

 

[brierpatch1974]

People should always help their church when they can . But this is pure and simple greed by the church groups and the government. State collects ten percent and keeps three percent as a handling fee. All the groups need to open their eyes and see it hurts them more than helps nd to remember the love of money is a sin. Greed should never come first.