German Bishops: Catholics Who Formally Leave Church Cannot Receive Sacraments

[gus]

Unfortunately the US Bishops are in a similar situation
Well it may not be a Quid Pro Quot situation as in Germany
the acceptence of tax payer dollars even for the most effecient charity distribution is a slippery slope we find ourselves on. Any monies the church uses should be derived from its members and controlled according the principals of the Church.
If Catholics refuse to support the Church they don’t. deserve a Church.

 

[iloveangels]

People should always help their church when they can . But this is pure and simple greed by the church groups and the government. State collects ten percent and keeps three percent as a handling fee. All the groups need to open their eyes and see it hurts them more than helps nd to remember the love of money is a sin. Greed should never come first.

I agree.

Unfortunately the US Bishops are in a similar situation
Well it may not be a Quid Pro Quot situation as in Germany
the acceptence of tax payer dollars even for the most effecient charity distribution is a slippery slope we find ourselves on. Any monies the church uses should be derived from its members and controlled according the principals of the Church.
If Catholics refuse to support the Church they don’t. deserve a Church.

Gus!!! We finally agree on something.

Yes, almost the same thing is being done here, but in a different way. We’re also all tangled up with the government, and it’s a mess here too. Why? Because we’re trying to keep things going with government money and government rules.

The facts are that
a) we don’t have hordes of sisters who will work for nothing anymore. They have other ideas and they’re too old anyway. Average age in the 70s.
b) these apostolates have gotten so big, complicated and expensive that Catholics couldn’t support them with the collection plate if they wanted to, which they don’t.
c) we also have a low mass attendance problem that no one wants to admit, although it’s not as bad as what they have in Germany.

But here the consequence isn’t that Catholics are about to get booted out of the church for not paying taxes. Rather it’s that we’re about to see our stuff change hands to secular companies because we won’t (and probably CAN’T) support them with the number of people who currently actually show up at mass. And I’m not sure what happens after that, if you want to know the truth. I do know that if Obamacare doesn’t get repealed, the next two years are going to be weird and confusing.

–Some places that are supposed to be Catholic won’t change at all, which will almost certainly that they aren’t in compliance with the Church and maybe haven’t been for a while.
–Some places are going to keep the same name but stop being Catholic. AKA there will be secular hospitals named St. Mary’s and the like and people will be fooled by it.
–Some places are going to try to discontinue all insurance and wiggle around legally to avoid the whole subject, reclassifying their workers anyway they can to avoid it. I don’t know how successful they’ll be.
–Some places are just going to shut down and that’s going to be that.

I hope they repeal Obamacare, meaning it wouldn’t come to this. But if they don’t, it will be interesting to watch, and sad.

Government-Church partnerships like the one we have and the one they have in Germany are a BAD, BAD IDEA. They are very dangerous for the Church.

 

[iloveangels]

Read the book of Acts on lying about your wealth

Gus, I"m not sure your comment addresses expectthebest’s comment. Can you be more specific?

 

[gus]

I agree.

Gus!!! We finally agree on something.

Yes, almost the same thing is being done here, but in a different way. We’re also all tangled up with the government, and it’s a mess here too. Why? Because we’re trying to keep things going with government money and government rules.
If we agree on something I will have rethink my position.
Only kidding
If one actually studies Church history it is fairly easy to conclude that much of that history was a Struggle of the Church from being subjagated by the State.
In Germany we lost the wars.
An often overlooked component of theReformation
In Post Reformation Germany each Church became subjected to the Prince. Religion is a function of the state.
Luther’s biggest mistake.
With this authority the maintainence of the religion is also the responsibility of the stare. Hence the long established church tax in Protestant areas.
When the Prussians re-unified Germany the Catholic areas Germany also became subject to the state.
When Gemany became a republic
1919 this tax became part of the Constitution
Re- affirmed in the Current Constion 1949

This tax is counter Historic Catholic belief as are Church separate from

The facts are that
a) we don’t have hordes of sisters who will work for nothing anymore. They have other ideas and they’re too old anyway. Average age in the 70s.
b) these apostolates have gotten so big, complicated and expensive that Catholics couldn’t support them with the collection plate if they wanted to, which they don’t.
c) we also have a low mass attendance problem that no one wants to admit, although it’s not as bad as what they have in Germany.

But here the consequence isn’t that Catholics are about to get booted out of the church for not paying taxes. Rather it’s that we’re about to see our stuff change hands to secular companies because we won’t (and probably CAN’T) support them with the number of people who currently actually show up at mass. And I’m not sure what happens after that, if you want to know the truth. I do know that if Obamacare doesn’t get repealed, the next two years are going to be weird and confusing.

–Some places that are supposed to be Catholic won’t change at all, which will almost certainly that they aren’t in compliance with the Church and maybe haven’t been for a while.
–Some places are going to keep the same name but stop being Catholic. AKA there will be secular hospitals named St. Mary’s and the like and people will be fooled by it.
–Some places are going to try to discontinue all insurance and wiggle around legally to avoid the whole subject, reclassifying their workers anyway they can to avoid it. I don’t know how successful they’ll be.
–Some places are just going to shut down and that’s going to be that.

I hope they repeal Obamacare, meaning it wouldn’t come to this. But if they don’t, it will be interesting to watch, and sad.

Government-Church partnerships like the one we have and the one they have in Germany are a BAD, BAD IDEA. They are very dangerous for the Church.

 

[gus]

I agree.

Gus!!! We finally agree on something.

Yes, almost the same thing is being done here, but in a different way. We’re also all tangled up with the government, and it’s a mess here too. Why? Because we’re trying to keep things going with government money and government rules.
If we agree on something I will have rethink my position.
Only kidding
If one actually studies Church history it is fairly easy to conclude that much of that history was a Struggle of the Church from being subjagated by the State.
In Germany we lost the wars.
An often overlooked component of theReformation
In Post Reformation Germany each Church became subjected to the Prince. Religion is a function of the state.
Luther’s biggest mistake.
With this authority the maintainence of the religion is also the responsibility of the stare. Hence the long established church tax in Protestant areas.
When the Prussians re-unified Germany the Catholic areas Germany also became subject to the state.
When Gemany became a republic
1919 this tax became part of the Constitution
Re- affirmed in the Current Constion 1949

This tax is counter Historic Catholic belief as are Church separate from

The facts are that
a) we don’t have hordes of sisters who will work for nothing anymore. They have other ideas and they’re too old anyway. Average age in the 70s.
b) these apostolates have gotten so big, complicated and expensive that Catholics couldn’t support them with the collection plate if they wanted to, which they don’t.
c) we also have a low mass attendance problem that no one wants to admit, although it’s not as bad as what they have in Germany.

But here the consequence isn’t that Catholics are about to get booted out of the church for not paying taxes. Rather it’s that we’re about to see our stuff change hands to secular companies because we won’t (and probably CAN’T) support them with the number of people who currently actually show up at mass. And I’m not sure what happens after that, if you want to know the truth. I do know that if Obamacare doesn’t get repealed, the next two years are going to be weird and confusing.

–Some places that are supposed to be Catholic won’t change at all, which will almost certainly that they aren’t in compliance with the Church and maybe haven’t been for a while.
–Some places are going to keep the same name but stop being Catholic. AKA there will be secular hospitals named St. Mary’s and the like and people will be fooled by it.
–Some places are going to try to discontinue all insurance and wiggle around legally to avoid the whole subject, reclassifying their workers anyway they can to avoid it. I don’t know how successful they’ll be.
–Some places are just going to shut down and that’s going to be that.

I hope they repeal Obamacare, meaning it wouldn’t come to this. But if they don’t, it will be interesting to watch, and sad.

Government-Church partnerships like the one we have and the one they have in Germany are a BAD, BAD IDEA. They are very dangerous for the Church.

 

[iloveangels]

gus:
Hey, Gus. To get the boxes to display right, put your own comment after where it says / quote]. It’ll be a lot easier to read.

 

[gus]

I an old guy using a remote device with a stylus.
Also autocorrect. Posting could be painfull.

 

[iloveangels]

I an old guy using a remote device with a stylus.
Also autocorrect. Posting could be painfull.

Only on a tall horse.

When you make comments to reply to other people, all you have to do is make sure your comments are after the / quote], not before. That’s the only change you have to make.

 

[PazzoGrande]

So recently there have been news stories about the German religious tax. They tax you according to whichever religion you belong to.

If the news reports are to be believed, the Catholic Church (as well as other religious groups) won’t give you service unless you pay the tax.

Obviously this is greatly different from how other countries deal with it. In the US, we don’t require anyone to pay for anything. How do the German clergy even know which people sitting in its congregation paid their taxes? They can’t exactly ask for a document before giving Communion or giving Confession.

One could argue that this is simony.

The whole thing is bizarre in American eyes, but there is an American tendency to scoff at what looks bizarre to them without actually trying to understand the rationale and without appreciating other viewpoints. I’m sure the German clergy have their reason, and I’m sure it’s not as malign as people might automatically assume.

What is the German clergy’s rationale for this?

 

[iloveangels]

So recently there have been news stories about the German religious tax. They tax you according to whichever religion you belong to.

If the news reports are to be believed, the Catholic Church (as well as other religious groups) won’t give you service unless you pay the tax.

Obviously this is greatly different from how other countries deal with it. In the US, we don’t require anyone to pay for anything. How do the German clergy even know which people sitting in its congregation paid their taxes? They can’t exactly ask for a document before giving Communion or giving Confession.

One could argue that this is simony.

The whole thing is bizarre in American eyes, but there is an American tendency to scoff at what looks bizarre to them without actually trying to understand the rationale and without appreciating other viewpoints. I’m sure the German clergy have their reason, and I’m sure it’s not as malign as people might automatically assume.

What is the German clergy’s rationale for this?

Well, you can find out what they say about it in the news articles. But the issue is very complicated. I’m pretty sure they’re probably saying what’s expedient.

There is one other thing that some people are neglecting to realize. If it’s the case that the authorities are focused on one or more reasons for doing something, but that focus results in something else happening, which may or may not be completely intended on its own account, both are consequences of the action they take. By this I mean to say that even if the rationale for having things the way they are wasn’t (or even isn’t now) simony, that doesn’t mean that simony can’t become one of the consequences because of the way the system works. Such that people are compelled to do the things they do because of the simony present in the system, and this is what some laypeople are objecting to in Germany.

You know, it is possible always to call something by a number of different names, and it’s also possible to think of anything in a number of different ways. That doesn’t prevent it from being what it is.

It’s possible that a combination of things like “we have to keep all these buildings open no matter what” and “it’s a matter of history and it’s been a good thing in the past (WWII)” and “we don’t want people leaving the Church” can add up to something else no one wants to name out loud. This is rather similar to the historical problems with simony in Germany before, in some respects. That was all about “raising money to pay for monuments,” and “encouraging the piety of the layfolk.”