German Cardinal Lehmann demands clear decision on female deacons

[CutlerB]

Notice they key word? “PRIESTLY”. John Paul II did not address the issue of the “diaconate”. We thus cannot use this definitive closing in doctrinal terms of female priesthood to quell questions over the diaconate.

I have seen the expression “priestly ordination” used in the sense of deacon as well (Cf. Catholic Answers “Women and the Priesthood”). And it appears that women have never been ordained, from all that I know of.

As per the revision of Canon Law by Pope Benedict XVI:

Could you provide the reference?

 

[anruari]

Having read the article in google translate:
This looks like a classic example of bad reporting, linking “We are the church” in the same article that describes a cardinal asking calling for the Vatican to consider the possiblity of bringing back the early church traditions of a blessing for an office of “Deaconess”.
He makes it clear that this is a distinct role and not ordination.
The headline is totally different describing it as a call for ordination for women.

The article then quotes a spokesperson for “We are the church” which is a “populist” group who are guilty of promoting just about every populist heresy that is going around at the moment.

The secular media and the liberal wing of the pretend catholic media will always tend towards this type of sensationalist drivel, which deliberately mis-represents that which has been said by a Cardinal to make it look like he supports the viewpoint of groups like “We are the church.”

 

[Vouthon]

I have seen the expression “priestly ordination” used in the sense of deacon as well (Cf. Catholic Answers “Women and the Priesthood”). And it appears that women have never been ordained, from all that I know of.

Could you provide the reference?

Perhaps CAF articles have used “priestly ordination” to refer to deacons as well, however I have not seen this in any magisterial documents. Deacons are not priests. Priestly ordination means what it says priestly ordination. We need not complicate it.

A reference, of course:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnium_in_mentem

Benedict’s revision is now well known.

 

[Lucky7]

Having read the article in google translate:
This looks like a classic example of bad reporting, linking “We are the church” in the same article that describes a cardinal asking calling for the Vatican to consider the possiblity of bringing back the early church traditions of a blessing for an office of “Deaconess”.
He makes it clear that this is a distinct role and not ordination.
The headline is totally different describing it as a call for ordination for women.

The article then quotes a spokesperson for “We are the church” which is a “populist” group who are guilty of promoting just about every populist heresy that is going around at the moment.

The secular media and the liberal wing of the pretend catholic media will always tend towards this type of sensationalist drivel, which deliberately mis-represents that which has been said by a Cardinal to make it look like he supports the viewpoint of groups like “We are the church.”

Thank you for this. It certainly makes me feel MUCH better.

 

[CutlerB]

Having read the article in google translate:
This looks like a classic example of bad reporting, linking “We are the church” in the same article that describes a cardinal asking calling for the Vatican to consider the possiblity of bringing back the early church traditions of a blessing for an office of “Deaconess”.
He makes it clear that this is a distinct role and not ordination.
The headline is totally different describing it as a call for ordination for women.

I’m not sure the translation was good. In the German it has the appearance that Cardinal Lehmann considers a “job-profile with sacramental ordination” possible.

The article then quotes a spokesperson for “We are the church” which is a “populist” group who are guilty of promoting just about every populist heresy that is going around at the moment.

I don’t pay attention to anything “Wir sind Kirche” (“We are the Church”) say. As you say, they are promoting “populist heresy”.

 

[CutlerB]

Perhaps CAF articles have used “priestly ordination” to refer to deacons as well, however I have not seen this in any magisterial documents. Deacons are not priests. Priestly ordination means what it says priestly ordination. We need not complicate it.

A reference, of course:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnium_in_mentem

Benedict’s revision is now well known.

Thank you for the reference. Although I must say that I doubt Pope Benedict had anything about ordained female deacons. Catholic Answers says that women cannot be ordained deacons due to the nature of the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Whether they can serve in a deaconesque (is there such a word?) role, would remain another question.

 

[Vouthon]

Catholic Answers says that women cannot be ordained deacons due to the nature of the Sacrament of Holy Orders.

That may be so, however CAF is not the magisterium. While it can be a good source for sound, orthodox apologetic material, it does not posses the plenitude of divine knowledge and authority nor is it infallible.

It will be the magisterium which definitively determines the question of women in relation to the diaconate just as it did with the priesthood (defining a clear “no”). I will accept whatever the final word is. Until then I welcome hearing different viewpoints.

 

[CutlerB]

That may be so, however CAF is not the magisterium. While it can be a good source for sound, orthodox apologetic material, it does not posses the plenitude of divine knowledge and authority nor is it infallible.

It will be the magisterium who definitively determines the question of women in relation to the diaconate. I will accept whatever the final word is. Until then I welcome hearing different viewpoints.

I’m not saying CA is infallible or the Magisterium. It’s just that I trust them, and if they say this, then it’s enough for me to cast doubt on the interpretation you delivered. Though I look forward to Rome’s final word.

 

[Vouthon]

I’m not saying CA is infallible or the Magisterium. It’s just that I trust them, and if they say this, then it’s enough for me to cast doubt on the interpretation you delivered. Though I look forward to Rome’s final word.

Just to make clear: I am not saying women can be deacons. I have no authority to claim so. My tent is not pitched either side of the river.

I am merely suggesting that until we have a definitive word from Rome, this can be a legitimate topic of discussion among Catholics.

 

[CutlerB]

Just to make clear: I am not saying women can be deacons. I have no authority to claim so. My tent is not pitched ever side of the river.

I am merely suggesting that until we have a definitive word from Rome, this can be a legitimate topic of discussion among Catholics.

I got you wrong then.

 

[Lucky7]

Hmmm…I found this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=714987&highlight=ordain+women+deacon

See posts 9 and 10. They quote the catechism and canon law regarding ordination of women. It seems to me that these quotes are not talking merely of priestly ordinations, but ordinations (ie. Holy Orders) in general.

I tend to think the Church has spoken.

Edit: I would add Catechism paragraph 1581:

This sacrament configures the recipient to Christ by a special grace of the Holy Spirit, so that* he **may serve as Christ’s instrument for his Church. By ordination one is enabled to act as a representative of Christ, Head of the Church, in his triple office of priest, prophet, and king. *

ie. a man.

 

[Tigg]

Hmmm…I found this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=714987&highlight=ordain+women+deacon

See posts 9 and 10. They quote the catechism and canon law regarding ordination of women. It seems to me that these quotes are not talking merely of priestly ordinations, but ordinations (ie. Holy Orders) in general.

ARTICLE 6

** THE SACRAMENT OF HOLY ORDERS

VI. WHO CAN RECEIVE THIS SACRAMENT?**

1577 "Only a baptized **man **(vir) validly receives sacred ordination."66 The Lord Jesus chose men (viri) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry.67 The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ's return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.68

I tend to think the Church has spoken.

Exactly! It is the **same **sacrament, only different levels, not different orders.

 

[CutlerB]

I need to clarify something: There seems to have been a misunderstanding on my part.

Cardinal Lehmann did not mean ordained deacons, that is, no Holy Orders of the first degree. He was referring to something like a blessing, as abbesses receive.

 

[edwest2]

Oh brother. Not this again. The Church has clearly spoken about female deacons.

ncregister.com/site/article/vatican_letter_censures_women_deacon_courses/

Peace,
Ed

 

[AndrewRaZ]

Cardinal Gerhard Muller (who is now Prefect of CDF) gave an interview back in 2002 while he was serving on the International Theological Commission, which had just discussed this very question. There is no question: it is not possible for the Church to confer ordination on women. Nor is there any distinction between permanent and transitional deacons–one rite of ordination, one sacrament of Order.

The sacrament of Holy Orders is one sacrament. Deacon, priest, and bishop share the same sacrament of Order, differing only in degree, not in kind. The deacon is configured to Christ, Head and Shepherd of the Church, and shares in the same threefold office, of sanctifying, governing, and teaching. In ancient times, a deacon was often the bishop’s right-hand, analogous to an episcopal vicar today. St. John Chrysostom is a notable example.

Take a look also at Lumen Gentium, especially sections 18-29. It speaks of deacons in the “hierarchy” of holy orders, priests having a “lesser degree” of the same sacrament, and the bishop as possessing the “fullness” of the sacrament.

Edit: I can’t read the German article, so I don’t know what exactly Cardinal Lehmann said. I’m really responding to comments here.

 

[bpcatholic]

welt.de/politik/deutschland/article113792450/Kardinal-schlaegt-neues-Kirchenamt-fuer-Frauen-vor.html

“Kardinal Walter Kasper hat auf der Frühjahrsversammlung der Deutschen Bischofskonferenz ein neues diakonales Amt für Frauen vorgeschlagen. Er sprach von einer Gemeindediakonin, die pastorale, karitative, katechetische und bestimmte liturgische Dienste wahrnehme. Ein solches Amt unterscheide sich vom Amt des männlichen Diakons. Die Gemeindediakonin werde per Segen beauftragt, nicht durch ein Weihe-Sakrament.”

My attempted translation: “Cardinal Walter Kasper proposed a new diaconate-like ministry for women to the German Bishop’s Conference during their Spring meeting. He spoke of a community deaconess that would perform pastoral, charitable, catechetical and certain liturgical functions. Such a ministry is different from the ministry of male deacons. The community deaconess would receive this ministry through a blessing, not through the sacrament of Holy Orders.”

Here’s my opinion. Women already do this. So the only thing the cardinal is really proposing is giving women a special title. Nothing would be changing theologically or ministerially. Women would still be doing the same thing they have always been doing in the Church. They just have a title they can fling at people.

 

[sw85]

The Church has always taught the unicity of holy orders. i.e., the presbyterate and diaconate are separate only in degree, not in kind. This won’t ever happen.

In fact these kinds of discussions are just annoying in general. Like virtually no one in general anywhere ever thought women could receive the sacrament of holy orders until about five minutes ago, at the same time everyone started thinking, hey, maybe contraception and abortion and sodomy etc. are all OK too. What rank gall, to think this generation of ignorant degenerates can challenge the universal consensus of two millennia of saints.

 

[MrTheosis]

Karl Cardinal Lehmann of Mainz, Germany has demanded a “binding and good decision” on on whether women can be ordained deacons, after decades of research. He told media that the German Bishop’s Conference had asked the Vatican to examine this possibility.

I have not found an English version yet, and there probably won’t be one as the meeting of Bishops in Trier at the moment is not of great concern to other countries. For those who would like to have a look at the German article, please see here.

I am flabbergasted about what is going on with our Bishops here at the moment. “Morning after”-pills, women deacons, what next? How can Cardinal Lehmann not see what Pope John Paul II declared about female priests? I hope the Vatican comes down like a ton of bricks on this matter. Really I do.

I very much agree. The Church does great harm by allowing things to “float” without firm resolution. I’m not suggesting a rushed judgement on the matter nor am I promoting one side or the other.

What I am suggesting is that the Church needs to put this highly incendiary issue to bed once and for all.

Please, please get with it Holy See and finish your research and deliberation and communicate a crystal-clear, non-revocable decision one way or the other on this issue.

 

[MrTheosis]

Just to make clear: I am not saying women can be deacons. I have no authority to claim so. My tent is not pitched either side of the river.

I am merely suggesting that until we have a definitive word from Rome, this can be a legitimate topic of discussion among Catholics.

You’re quite right. I would add that this discussion is often quite corrosive. That’s why I wish that after their research is complete that the Holy See would once and for all proclaim a clear and unambiguous answer to this question.

I really wish Benedict XVI would have done this before he abdicates because a great deal of the fury (no matter which decision is reached) would die once he is replaced.

 

[Lucky7]

I very much agree. The Church does great harm by allowing things to “float” without firm resolution. I’m not suggesting a rushed judgement on the matter nor am I promoting one side or the other.

What I am suggesting is that the Church needs to put this highly incendiary issue to bed once and for all.

Please, please get with it Holy See and finish your research and deliberation and communicate a crystal-clear, non-revocable decision one way or the other on this issue.

You need to read the whole thread. The Church has spoken.