German Cardinal Lehmann demands clear decision on female deacons

[jwinch2]

If the Diaconate is supposed to be an alternative for those who cannot or don’t want to be ordained then why not include women?

Deacons are ordained. They receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders, which women cannot receive.

 

[mcmemmo]

As we read statements coming from some of the higher levels of the hierarchy, it isn’t that Rome has not spoken, but rather that the message is not being heard by some of those promoting progressive, Modernist ideals, contrary to the documents of previous popes and centuries of teaching. They seem to go the way of the Nouvelle Théologie which many theologians have said deviates from Tradition.

The only theologians I know of who say the Nouvelle Théologie deviates from tradition are the Lefebvrists. Is this who you mean?

As for women deacons, both America Magazine and Commonweal have in-depth articles on the topic that explain the issue very well.

 

[sw85]

The only theologians I know of who say the Nouvelle Théologie deviates from tradition are the Lefebvrists. Is this who you mean?

As for women deacons, both America Magazine and Commonweal have in-depth articles on the topic that explain the issue very well.

Pius XII seemed to think poorly of it, and many of its adherents (Kung, Schillebeecx, etc.) have proven to be wolves.

The articles you cite aren’t very convincing. Both Wcela and Zagano are old leftists, and Zagano works with the degenerate, heretical National Catholic Reporter. Wcela’s argument basically amounts to “But priests aren’t deacons!” which, again, ignores flat-out the Church’s historical teaching about the unicity of sacred orders.

 

[mcmemmo]

Pius XII seemed to think poorly of it, and many of its adherents (Kung, Schillebeecx, etc.) have proven to be wolves.

The articles you cite aren’t very convincing. Both Wcela and Zagano are old leftists, and Zagano works with the degenerate, heretical National Catholic Reporter. Wcela’s argument basically amounts to “But priests aren’t deacons!” which, again, ignores flat-out the Church’s historical teaching about the unicity of sacred orders.

Then we will have to disagree as to our perspective. Personally, I detest the use of name calling (i.e., “wolves”, “heretical”) and attacking sources rather than addressing the issues they raise. Such is not a defense of the faith, but a strategy used by those seeking to divide. Most of your response is nothing more than an ad hominen attack.

I am just learning about the Nouvelle Théologie perspective, which is the theological paradigm favored by every Pope since Blessed John XXIII. I understand that those who struggle to acknowledge the infallibility of Vatican II as a valid Church counsel (i.e., the Lefebvrists) may have a problem with it, but we all struggle with various aspects of the faith. Both liberals and conservatives have their own issues and believe they are “right” - so be it. There is room for debate within the Church as long as it does not lead to schism.

A key element of the Nouvelle Théologie are Aggiornamento and Resourcement. This is what Vatican II was all about. Resourcement is a “return to the sources” - that is, a reexamination of early Church documents and the writings of the Church fathers.

My understanding of the current controversy is that it hinges on the form of the ordination of women deacons found in a 7th century manuscript from the Eastern tradition, the Codex Barbarini, which records a much older rite. This manuscript contains a prayer and form for the ordination of women deacons that is essentially identical to that of male deacons. Furthermore, it specifically cites Pheobe as the model by which the ministry of a female deacon is to be understood.

If we accept that the Eastern and Latin traditions are equally valid, then this document cannot be discounted out of hand, but must be accounted for by the Church. I think the German Cardinals are correct to request this clarification.

 

[crosswired]

Hello all,
Please excuse me as I am new here. I am a canidate for the deaconite and disagree that Holy orders are the same for the Deacon and Priest. They are not. When Vat. II reesabblished the permanite deaconite they were not making a minor order of Priest but a different kind of order and did not disallow women from being ordained as deacons. I see no threat to women in the role of deacons. The cannons do not see it as a stepping stone to the priesthood and indeed the documents suggest that it should be only in rear occassions that permanate deacons seek to be ordained as priest. These are simply two different ways to serve. Daecons should be leading the faitful outside the Church and there are many woman who do just that.

 

[CutlerB]

Hello all,
Please excuse me as I am new here. I am a canidate for the deaconite and disagree that Holy orders are the same for the Deacon and Priest. They are not. When Vat. II reesabblished the permanite deaconite they were not making a minor order of Priest but a different kind of order and did not disallow women from being ordained as deacons. I see no threat to women in the role of deacons. The cannons do not see it as a stepping stone to the priesthood and indeed the documents suggest that it should be only in rear occassions that permanate deacons seek to be ordained as priest. These are simply two different ways to serve. Daecons should be leading the faitful outside the Church and there are many woman who do just that.

I recommend you read all the posts here, that should put your post in perspective. Welcome!

 

[Digitonomy]

disagree that Holy orders are the same for the Deacon and Priest. They are not. When Vat. II reesabblished the permanite deaconite they were not making a minor order of Priest but a different kind of order…These are simply two different ways to serve.

I think everyone grants that deacons have a much different role than priests or bishops. Are you suggesting Holy Orders for deacons is a different sacrament from that for priests?

crosswired:

I see no threat to women in the role of deacons.

Not sure what you mean. Do you mean you don’t see any risk that women will be appointed to the role of deacons? Or that women should not feel threatened by the office of deacons? Or that you don’t see any challenge to the concept of women becoming deacons?

 

[hudson]

There are only 7 Sacraments. Holy Orders being 1 of those 7. Women cannot receive Holy Orders, so they cannot be ordained as Deacons. End of Story, no matter what some liberal progressive theologians want to tell you. This whole discussion is about liberals fighting for women to be able to receive Holy Orders. They will then say there is no excuse that they cannot become Priest because there is no difference in the Sacrament of Holy Orders. I am not deceived by this deception. I see the same deception in allowing female altar boys.

 

[Tigg]

I love Cardinal Marc Ouellet who made a statement recently that the intelligentsia were guilty of the mentality of dissent. How unfortunate that while the conclave gets ready to convene that such issues as this would cause consternation despite repeated efforts to put this matter to rest. May the continuity of sacred Tradition, under the direction of the Spirit stay intact (and it will) and may St. Michael do battle for God and His Holy Church.

 

[Lucky7]

I see the same deception in allowing female altar boys.

uh, no that’s not the same thing.

 

[bellasbane]

I see the same deception in allowing female altar boys.

You mean “alter servers”.

I was the first female alter server in my diocese. I am very proud of that fact. I wrote to my bishop and asked for permission - which he granted. A few months later all of the parishes had female alter servers.

The priests were delighted. The girls were more responsible, more respectful, wore their robes neater and hung them up after mass instead of throwing them in a pile.

Thirty years later and its the same in our parish. The boys are always being reprimanded for wearing dirty sneakers and failing to show up. The girls are sweet and helpful.

 

[Tigg]

You mean “alter servers”.

I was the first female alter server in my diocese. I am very proud of that fact. I wrote to my bishop and asked for permission - which he granted. A few months later all of the parishes had female alter servers.

The priests were delighted. The girls were more responsible, more respectful, wore their robes neater and hung them up after mass instead of throwing them in a pile.

Thirty years later and its the same in our parish. The boys are always being reprimanded for wearing dirty sneakers and failing to show up. The girls are sweet and helpful.

One teensy thing to add here, though - it is quite dismaying when they wear blue eye shadow, dangly earrings, heavy perfume and bright pink toenails are seen when they wear sandals. Sorry - I just couldn’t resist telling it all as it sometimes is!

 

[Lucky7]

You mean “alter servers”.

I was the first female alter server in my diocese. I am very proud of that fact. I wrote to my bishop and asked for permission - which he granted. A few months later all of the parishes had female alter servers.

The priests were delighted. The girls were more responsible, more respectful, wore their robes neater and hung them up after mass instead of throwing them in a pile.

Thirty years later and its the same in our parish. The boys are always being reprimanded for wearing dirty sneakers and failing to show up. The girls are sweet and helpful.

I hear you; however, I also hear the concerns of those who question the decision to allow female altar servers. I wonder whether the increase in females at the altar has directly affected vocations to the priesthood (due to the decrease in male altar servers).