German Church admits aiding Nazis

[Sabbath_Keeper]

It’s a good idea, before positng spurious accusations against anybody to get ALL the facts. I have just completed reading a book concerning Hitler, the Nazism, The Facishist and the RCC (particularly PXI and PXII) and it was quite informative as most of what was presented was extracted from documents that were sent to the US from the Vatican during that tumoultuous time. (Apparently the documents were sent to the US for fear that they may have fallen into the hands of the Nazis as the revealed the truth about the Churches position concerning the Third Riech and also that of the Duches’ government in Italy.)

Anyway, to make a long story short, the actions taken and not taken by the Vatican were done because of the aforementioned Concordants with the Fascists and the Nazies. It was a matter of the force of Law. Unfortunately Hitler never had any intention of honoring his side of the Concordant and there were within the Church those that did support the Nazis in the hopes that they would further the ends of the Church. Basically those of the RCC that supported the Nazis had buried their heads in the sand and would not face reality. One such member even assisted fleeing Nazis’ at the end of the war. Be it known that neither PXI nor PXII supported either party but considered each as the same as Communism.

That being said, it is unfortunate that neither Pope had the fortitude to stand firmly upon the faith that they so strongly claimed and, as faithful Christians in the past, rather face martyrdom than compromise their faith, for that is what happened in this case. For to compromise one’s faith is to deny one’s faith.

 

[Freshman88]

Forced labor wasn’t always the worse thing possible, it depended a lot on where you were sent and who received you. Much of my Ukrainian Catholic family was sent to do forced labour in Germany, being stripped from their families by gun point at the tender ages of 13 and 15 (my grandmother and grandfather).

Although I can’t say the same for my grandfather and some of my great uncles (who were eventually sent to a camp) , my grandmother actually got sent to a decent family. To this day she maintains a correspondence in German, with the family who took her as a slave. Of course it wasn’t a walk through the garden, and not everyone they came across was as human as the family my Grandmother was sent to.

My point? Some people made the best of a situation which was forced upon them. Really, I have to thank God that my grandmother was sent to such a family. If that decent family had refused my Grandmother, who would have taken her? Would her new family have been Nazi lunatics? Would my grandmother have survived such a family? and would I still be here today?

As for those who claim that Hitler was Catholic or that the state was sympathetic to Catholocism. All I have to say is, tell that to the Poles, tell that to the hundreads of thousands of Catholics who perished in concentration camp. Tell that to the priests and nuns who died protecting Jews and resisting the fascists.

St. Maximillian Kolbe and St. Edith Stein,
Pray for us.

 

[Freshman88]

That being said, it is unfortunate that neither Pope had the fortitude to stand firmly upon the faith that they so strongly claimed and, as faithful Christians in the past, rather face martyrdom than compromise their faith, for that is what happened in this case. For to compromise one’s faith is to deny one’s faith.

Yes, if the Pope had openly and firecly condemned the fascists think of what a wonderful world this would be… Just forget the fact the Hitler was systematically enslaving and killing a whole Catholic nation. And while your at it, forget the fact that Hitler had no qualms with executing priests or religious who did just exactly what you prescribed, resist the nazis.

 

[mercygate]

Yes, if the Pope had openly and firecly condemned the fascists think of what a wonderful world this would be… Just forget the fact the Hitler was systematically enslaving and killing a whole Catholic nation. And while your at it, forget the fact that Hitler had no qualms with executing priests or religious who did just exactly what you prescribed, resist the nazis.

There was a real double bind. Speaking out would have made BOTH Jews and Catholics easier targets. Nazis had no qualms about killing ten people for the “crime” of one. The Vatican chose to work behind the scenes and underground in order not to exacerbate the situation.

 

[Freshman88]

There was a real double bind. Speaking out would have made BOTH Jews and Catholics easier targets. Nazis had no qualms about killing ten people for the “crime” of one. The Vatican chose to work behind the scenes and underground in order not to exacerbate the situation.

Sadly this under the radar approach is interpreted as either shying away from the faith, or aiding the Nazis.

It’s absolutely ludicrous. My own Catholic family was persecuted by the Nazis, and so I’m forced to roll my eyes when I hear some of this trash.

 

[mercygate]

Sadly this under the radar approach is interpreted as either shying away from the faith, or aiding the Nazis.

It’s absolutely ludicrous. My own Catholic family was persecuted by the Nazis, and so I’m forced to roll my eyes when I hear some of this trash.

My Dutch (Dutch Reform) family enjoys the history of having all the males in their small village lined up and shot because a Jew was discovered hidden in somebody’s attic. My grandfather had come to the U.S. as an infant in 1889 but the collateral relatives (men and boys) were all lost.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

It really amazes me how some arm chair quarterbacks come on the scene as Johnny come latelys and give a simplistic explanation about something so complex as a world gone mad. It is easy to say what others should have done, when not faced with similar circumstances and consequences. Will we never learn??
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[cthulhubryan]

First… Take a breath.

Ok, let’s examine what really happened.

First, Hitler came to power in 1932 as part of German frustration with both the failings of the Weimar Republic and the fear of rising Communist influence both of which were brought about by the terrible sanctions the French demanded in the Treaty of Versailles at the end of WWI which brought economic devastation to the country. Hitler brought back national pride and improved the economy. Remember, KristallNacht is still 6 years away.

During this time, all countries sent their diplomatic envoys to meet the new Chancellor. The Papal Nuncio being no exception.

These “damning pictures” mentioned in the article are all (with the exception of 1 funeral picture) taken before Kristall Nacht ie before persecution of Jews became widespread. The flag flying outside the Kolner Dome is in 1937.

The “Concordat between the Vatican and Nazis” is overblown and made to look secret and troubling when in fact it was neither. The Concordat stated:

1. The Catholic Church could maintain its practices and govern itself inside Germany (remember than unlike any other Church the Catholic Church is headed by a head of state)
2. It clarified that earlier concordats by states (Bavaria, Prussia & Baden) remained intact
3. Agreed to the exchanging of ambassadors.
4. Guaranteed the right of the privacy of the confessional
5. Allowed Priests, Bishops, etc. the rights of same protections as state officials.

As can be seen, this background for the story is overblown. This Cardinal, who has resigned, clearly had an axe to grind and has tried to re-ignite a fire.

Also, anytime you see references to the book “Hitler’s Pope” remember that it has the same scholarly standards as Boettner’s Roman Catholicism. ie none.

 

[Bennie_P]

Hopefully revelations like this will prevent the already shaky path of Pius the XII to sainthood. That would be a slap in the face to the world IMO and a betrayal by the catholic church of its purported truth and honesty.

It seems all of these people, whom are better to know, would disagree with your assumption.

We share in the grief of humanity [at the death of Pius XII]….* When fearful martyrdom came to our people in the decade of Nazi terror, the voice of the pope was raised for the victims. The life of our times was enriched by a voice speaking out on the great moral truths above the tumult of daily conflict. We mourn a great servant of peace.*

~ Golda Meir
No keener rebuke has come to Nazism than from Pope Pius XI and his successor, Pope Pius XII.

~ Rabbi Louis Finkelstein, chancellor, Jewish Theological Seminary of America​

In the most difficult hours of which we Jews of Romania have passed through, the generous assistance of the Holy See…was decisive and salutary. It is not easy for us to find the right words to express the warmth and consolation we experienced because of the concern of the supreme pontiff, who offered a large sum to relieve the sufferings of deported Jews….* The Jews of Romania will never forget these facts of historic importance.*

~ Rabbi Alexander Safran, chief rabbi of Romania​

The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion, which form the very foundation of true civilization, are doing for our unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of Divine Providence in this world.

~ Rabbi Isaac Herzog, chief rabbi of Israel​

I told [Pope Pius XII] that my first duty was to thank him, and through him the Catholic Church, on behalf of the Jewish public for all they had done in the various countries to rescue Jews…. We are deeply grateful to the Catholic Church.

~ Moshe Sharett (who later became Israel’s first foreign minister and second prime minister)
​

 

[Bennie_P]

With a a decent computer, any idiot can doctor photos. With a decent, many idiots intimidated many people.

The Book, “Hitler’s Pope” has been repeatedly shown to be biased and false. It is a poor source.

This is nothing less than anti-Catholic hatred. Those who promote this kind of thing are nothing other than sick bigots.

Hitler was an atheist.

I have to disgree with your last statement For Hitler was a pagan, he believed in God, for he thought he was (a) god’s messenger and the savoir of the German people. He subscribed to the pan-German movement and the myths of Germany’s pagan pre-Christian past. Paganism and the occult shaped the spitituality of many in Germany, as well as it still does today.

The faith group which seemed to escape persecution during NAZI Germany was Buddhism (not saying that Buddhist aided NAZIsm), which in the Aryan myth, Aryans where supposed of been a tribe of pure race that had migrated from the east into what become the fatherland.

Seven years in Tibet is a Story of a Nazi that got stuck in Tibet during the war. Every wonder why he went there to begin with? Well it was to search for the roots and spirituality of the Aryan Race.

Aryanâr’ēən, [Sanskrit,=noble], term formerly used to designate the Indo-European race or language family or its Indo-Iranian subgroup. Originally a group of nomadic tribes, the Aryans were part of a great migratory movement that spread in successive waves from S Russia and Turkistan during the 2d millennium B.C. Throughout Mesopotamia and Asia Minor, literate urban centers fell to their warrior bands. Archaeological evidence corroborates the text of the Veda by placing the invasion of India by the Aryans at c.1500 B.C. They colonized the Punjab region of NW India and absorbed much of the indigenous culture. The resulting Indo-Aryan period saw the flourishing of a pastoral-agricultural economy that utilized bronze objects and horse-drawn chariots. Before the discovery of the Indus valley sites in the 1920s, Hindu culture had been attributed solely to the Aryan invaders. The idealization of conquest pictured in the Vedic hymns was incorporated into Nazi racist literature, in which German descent was supposedly traced back to Aryan forebears.

What I don’t understand is why the Catholic Church is always being attacked for NAZIsm when it is fact Hitler rejected Catholic teaching and embraced paganism?

 

[Valke2]

It seems all of these people, whom are better to know, would disagree with your assumption.

INDENT]No keener rebuke has come to Nazism than from Pope Pius XI and his successor, Pope Pius XII.[/INDENT]

~ Rabbi Louis Finkelstein, chancellor, Jewish Theological Seminary of America​

[/RIGHT]

Rabbi Louis Finkelstein was a very important figure in modern judiasm and I happen to be close with his family. I was surprised to hear that he praised Pope Pius for saving Jews or attacking Nazism. I believe your post misquites him. What he is attributed as saying, I believe is:

No rebuke has come to Nazism from Pope Pius XI and his successor, Pope Pius XII."

• **Rabbi Louis Finkelstein, chancellor, Jewish Theological Seminary of America in the New York Times, March, 1940.

Most of your other quotes have already been raised and discussed in this thread if I recall.

 

[Valke2]

Regarding my previous post, I’ve seen Rabbi Finkelstien’s quotes stated both ways on the interenet. I have no knowledge that mine is right and your’s is wrong. Even though my quote has the citation. But I can’t know if it is misquoted.

 

[Bennie_P]

Regarding my previous post, I’ve seen Rabbi Finkelstien’s quotes stated both ways on the interenet. I have no knowledge that mine is right and your’s is wrong. Even though my quote has the citation. But I can’t know if it is misquoted.

The quote I used is documented in Rabbi Dalin’s book, *The Myth of Hitler’s Pope: Pope Pius XII and His Secret War Against Nazi Germany" *In which I have a copy.

David Gil Dalin is an American historian and author. Dalin co-author of several books on Jewish history. He is currently a professor of history and political science at Ave Maria University, and was previously associate professor of American Jewish history at the University of Hartford. Dalin is also a practicing Conservative rabbi.
Dalin received a bachelor’s degree from the University of California, Berkeley, a master’s and doctorate from Brandeis University, and his Rabbinic ordination from the Jewish Theological Seminary of America.

 

[AlanF]

Regarding my previous post, I’ve seen Rabbi Finkelstien’s quotes stated both ways on the interenet. I have no knowledge that mine is right and your’s is wrong. Even though my quote has the citation. But I can’t know if it is misquoted.

When I searched it it seems Wikiquote has it as “No rebuke” but every other website has it “No keener rebuke”.

 

[Bennie_P]

When I searched it it seems Wikiquote has it as “No rebuke” but every other website has it “No keener rebuke”.

Remember anyone can edit at wiki…

 

[cthulhubryan]

For those who have read “Hitlers Pope” I strongly advise to read “The myth of Hitlers Pope” I have read both and the latter is much better researched and is more credible.

 

[Dwyer]

From what I’ve read, and in my opinion, one can criticize the Catholic Church, especially the Catholic Church in Germany, for not speaking out enough.

However, that said, I understand that the Catholic Church deserves criticism for not speaking out enough against the Nazi officials.

However, for some reason, it always seems to be the Catholic Church that is constantly and, I would say, solely criticized about its conduct during WWII.

So, since the criticism is almost exclusively against the Catholic Church, that kind of gives me that “draw the wagons in a circle” type of feeling, which I don’t like.

How come the Protestant churches are never criticized with books and newspaper articles, etc.

The Luthern Pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer seemed to be almost the sole strong voice of German Protestant criticism against the Nazi regime, and for that, he was executed (I think there was a small underground group of Protestant pastors who, with Bonhoeffer, opposed the Nazis).

If anything (I remember there was one PBS documentary shown about Bonhoeffer on a Sunday afternoon about three years ago; never reaired in my area) the German Protestant churches strongly supported the Nazis and failed to speak out against them as well.

And how about the secular Liberal Democratic governments, like the U.K. and the United States during WWII??

Wasn’t there some sort of boat that was full of asylum seekers that appeared at a U.S. port, and were turned away?

And Britain, controlled Palestine at this time. I think they were informed, a refugee smuggled photos of Concentration Camps to their Intelligence Office, yet they did nothing.

President Bush recently issued an apology recently because the U.S. didn’t attack the Concentration Camps sooner.

I watched my nightly network news the day he issued the apology, hoping that the news would have a news segment on TV about this important event, but there was nothing on the nightly news about it.

And I just want to mention that Catholic Churches were attacked in Poland also. Catholicism played a central role in Polish society (as it did during ther occupation of the Soviets), so Hitler wanted it ruined.

Pope Pius XII didn’t speak out to the Nazis against this Catholic persecution either (there is a question whether he had actual knowledge of this, but he was usually well briefed on what was going on, the author Paul Johnson writes). That kind of indicates he was acting very much to maintain the status quo with regard to the Nazis (and, I think the criticism can be leveled, perhaps, playing the power politics extremely cautiously with regard to the Nazis. Perhaps he could have spoke out more; it’s always a roll of the dice as to what would have happened had he been more vocal and done so).

 

[Bennie_P]

From what I’ve read, and in my opinion, one can criticize the Catholic Church, especially the Catholic Church in Germany, for not speaking out enough.

However, that said, I understand that the Catholic Church deserves criticism for not speaking out enough against the Nazi officials.

However, for some reason, it always seems to be the Catholic Church that is constantly and, I would say, solely criticized about its conduct during WWII.

So, since the criticism is almost exclusively against the Catholic Church, that kind of gives me that “draw the wagons in a circle” type of feeling, which I don’t like.

How come the Protestant churches are never criticized with books and newspaper articles, etc.

The Luthern Pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer seemed to be almost the sole strong voice of German Protestant criticism against the Nazi regime, and for that, he was executed (I think there was a small underground group of Protestant pastors who, with Bonhoeffer, opposed the Nazis).

If anything (I remember there was one PBS documentary shown about Bonhoeffer on a Sunday afternoon about three years ago; never reaired in my area) the German Protestant churches strongly supported the Nazis and failed to speak out against them as well.

And how about the secular Liberal Democratic governments, like the U.K. and the United States during WWII??

Wasn’t there some sort of boat that was full of asylum seekers that appeared at a U.S. port, and were turned away?

And Britain, controlled Palestine at this time. I think they were informed, a refugee smuggled photos of Concentration Camps to their Intelligence Office, yet they did nothing.

President Bush recently issued an apology recently because the U.S. didn’t attack the Concentration Camps sooner.

I watched my nightly network news the day he issued the apology, hoping that the news would have a news segment on TV about this important event, but there was nothing on the nightly news about it.

And I just want to mention that Catholic Churches were attacked in Poland also. Catholicism played a central role in Polish society (as it did during ther occupation of the Soviets), so Hitler wanted it ruined.

Pope Pius XII didn’t speak out to the Nazis against this Catholic persecution either (there is a question whether he had actual knowledge of this, but he was usually well briefed on what was going on, the author Paul Johnson writes). That kind of indicates he was acting very much to maintain the status quo with regard to the Nazis (and, I think the criticism can be leveled, perhaps, playing the power politics extremely cautiously with regard to the Nazis. Perhaps he could have spoke out more; it’s always a roll of the dice as to what would have happened had he been more vocal and done so).

You really need to read this book, *The Myth of Hitler’s Pope: Pope Pius XII and His Secret War Against Nazi Germany" *

The Pope did what was humanly possible, speaking out he did, but he had to use caution, for millions of peoples lives were in the balance, but more then anyone else, by his actions he was responsible for saving more Jewish lives then any other person or group during that period of infamy.

England and France could have stopped Hitler in 1938 when Germany was still weak militarily at teh time he threaten Czechoslovakia. But Chamberlain back down to Hitler’s bluff. Engalnd and France at that time had a military advantage over Germany. Pope Pius XII had only the Swiss Guard. Hitler was not someone that was going to backdown to a priest surrounded by an army of facist in Italy.

It is wrong to say he didn’t speak out enough. In Germany, just like in America today we have many that are Culturally Catholic and will go with the tossing tides of what is popular politically & worldly, and just like back then there are many that don’t follow what the Pope says and what the Church teaches. For example we witnessed in the current election, were 54 % of the people claiming to be Catholic voted for the most pro-abortion candidate in the History of the United States. Yes, many that were baptised in the Church in Germany aided the NAZIs and many were NAZIs, but that was each of those individuals choice, not the Church’s and not Pope Pius XII’s. He spoke out, just like Pope Benedict XVI speaks out today, but the majority doesn’t seem to be able to listen.

 

[RobbyS]

EXACTLY!

Apparently the poster never heard of St. Maximilian Kolbe, among others.

Catholics were willing to help Hitler for some of the reasons why Catholics aid Obama today. They simply were unaware of what Hitler was doing. and the ones who were aware either approved or were too fearful to oppose the regime.

 

[Bennie_P]

Catholics were willing to help Hitler for some of the reasons why Catholics aid Obama today. They simply were unaware of what Hitler was doing. and the ones who were aware either approved or were too fearful to oppose the regime.

Note my last paragraph of previous post. I think together we hit the probelm on the nail. Everytime I try to bring up life and morality issues, my associates and friends that supported Obama kept mentioning thier vote was based on other issues such as the economy, that is how the NAZIs got power and was able to take control, that is people looked at problems of “economy” and ignored moral issues. so just like then we see even the “corporate” leaders lookig for more welfare programs (bailout) that will benefit them, despite the warnings of the past of what happens when the government has too much control over the “masses”.

People are willing to ignore things like abortion, gay marriage and government over-reaching & spending, in order to get a piece of the pie. They are willing to close thier ears and eyes on what the Church teaches, and buy into this idea that goverment is the savoir instead of Jesus Christ.

History doesn’t always repeats itself in whole, but certain parts of it come back to haunt us, but of course people don’t believe in ghost.

Good response in your post