German Muslim professor expressed his doubt that Muhammad ever lived.

[planten]

It sounds too convenient to just pick and chose what haditha and surah muslims want to believe in. But, is it really the full truth here? Since muslims also are told to deceive us, how can we believe that what someone says that muslims don’t believe in the violent passages - that this is entirely true? Especially since all we hear from jihadists are their own koran and hadiths to justify their murdering rampages.

Of course, in all these discussions it is never mentioned by muslims about the abrograted passages that they insist are what muslims follow were really replaced.

Violence, terror and islam
faithfreedom.org/Articles/Mahfuzur30411.htm

this article goes into how jihad is essential to islam as the resurrection is to Christianity.
faithfreedom.org/Articles/JenniferKing50710.htm

a quote from the above article: **The last two chapters of the Qur’an are chapter 5 and chapter 9, in their correct chronological order, Allah’s Last Call. The opinions of scholars differ over which is the last chapter, but they both contain the final orders for all Muslims. These laws abrogate, cancel ALL the earlier, ‘peaceful and tolerant’ verses of the Qur’an. These final and absolute orders demand Jihad, holy war against all non-Muslims forever. All non-Muslims must be killed, enslaved and controlled by Muslims. Islam must rule the world. Islam is in fact a License to Kill in the name of Allah. Holy War is the holy law of Islam. This unique law called Jihad gives all Muslims the right to attack and kill non-Muslims, to loot, rape and enslave them, and to rule the world in the name of Allah.

Jihad is as essential to Islam as the Resurrection is to Christianity. **

**This is a wide ranging false claim about abrogation of gentle verses. There is no such thing unless each verse is discussed, let us say that only the verse which is considered abrogator should be presented. We will accept it. But please make sure that it does not contain any word Kafir in it. Because the kafir is an enemy of Islam. So it will be necessary to fight the kafir.

Otherwise if you have any verse of the Quran which pinches you as harsh, then bring it here please. You will see that you will have no case at all.**

 

[thedavidwilson]

Countries have their own laws and they say they are Islamic. There is a news item that two Iranian Muslims who became christians are on trial for apostacy. The likely verdict is death for them. But let us see what actually happens, in todays Iran.

It is strange that all Muslim countries have laws that discriminate, persecute, or execute Muslims who convert from Islam. I guess they are all misguided.

 

[R_not]

**This is a wide ranging false claim about abrogation of gentle verses. There is no such thing unless each verse is discussed, let us say that only the verse which is considered abrogator should be presented. We will accept it. But please make sure that it does not contain any word Kafir in it. Because the kafir is an enemy of Islam. So it will be necessary to fight the kafir.

Otherwise if you have any verse of the Quran which pinches you as harsh, then bring it here please. You will see that you will have no case at all.**

To muslims, the enemy of islam is anyone who figures out islam and do not want to be subjugated, killed or converted. Too bad muslims don’t keep their ‘religion’ to themselves if someone rejects it, but they do not. In fact, it bodes ill for those muslims who figure it out and want to leave it if they reside in muslim lands too. They have only a limited amount of time to repent and either accept or die.

There will be many who you lump into kafir because they reject islam. You are suggesting violence against many just because they don’t want islam.

europenews.dk/en/node/13862
Islam is a Violent “Faith”
By Dr. Sami Alrabaa September 07 2008

This is an article by a muslim too. this article only has a few of the violence that is taught to be used against anyone who rejects islam. Just because they reject it - they are to be killed.

mohammed didn’t know the Bible and screwed up the Biblical stories and he told you guys that we were the ones who screwed up the stories. And way too many muslims haven’t figured out that with all the translations, all of the bibles that were available at his time - they were all consistent, while he was not. He, who was an illiterate who couldn’t have read them for himself.

 

[planten]

It is strange that all Muslim countries have laws that discriminate, persecute, or execute Muslims who convert from Islam. I guess they are all misguided.

**Yes, they are all misguided if they kill the reverts or converts without any other crime such as murder or other state crimes. The Muslim states should not kill any convert or revert. They have no right. If they are doing it without any other crime then they are criminals. Just for changing one’s faith, an otherwise innocent man/woman should not even be touched or threatened or disliked.

That is real Islam from the time of the prophet. How it got changed on the way, that I do not know.

We had some pauls too. Once some one entered or described something as Hadith, then nobody dared to remove it. So it became part of the religion.

**

 

[planten]

**To muslims, the enemy of islam is anyone who figures out islam and do not want to be subjugated, killed or converted. ** Too bad muslims don’t keep their ‘religion’ to themselves if someone rejects it, but they do not. In fact, it bodes ill for those muslims who figure it out and want to leave it if they reside in muslim lands too. They have only a limited amount of time to repent and either accept or die.

**That is wrong. The kafir or the enemy in Islam is the same as there were in the time of Jesus, even worse than that. An enemy is the one who does not believe in Islam and does not let any one believe in Islam. He/She does not let the believers to have rest. He/She fights Islam. I hope you understand that. That is the open declared enemy called kafir.

But if any one does not believe in Allah or Muhammad or Jesus or moses, it does not matter as long as he is peaceful. If he is a Jew or a christian, he can even preach his religion peacefully. There is no bar. But it is well known some religions (as one is seen here is violent and abusive) cannot remain peaceful. Then they are asking for trouble. Otherwise Islam is all for peace and permits all to live well happily like Muslims are now living in western countries.

Only part of your post is true.

**

 

[R_not]

**Yes, they are all misguided if they kill the reverts or converts without any other crime such as murder or other state crimes. The Muslim states should not kill any convert or revert. They have no right. If they are doing it without any other crime then they are criminals. Just for changing one’s faith, an otherwise innocent man/woman should not even be touched or threatened or disliked.

That is real Islam from the time of the prophet. How it got changed on the way, that I do not know.

We had some pauls too. Once some one entered or described something as Hadith, then nobody dared to remove it. So it became part of the religion.

**

It isn’t the ‘muslim state’ that does the killing - it is imams, or clerics, or ayatollahs (whatever you want to call them) that put out the fatwas and individuals do the killing. And that is where sharia law comes in - there is nothing to protect these types of murders. This is why it happens so often.

Most of these hadiths, surahs, etc are exactly what mohammed did - that is why they made it into the volumes as it did. And we see how muslims react when the hadiths are censored, as USC has done, they get all incensed. But, I don’t agree with censoring any of it because that only means that we infidels are the ones who won’t know what the hadiths or koran is - the muslims will still practice what they do anyway.

jihadwatch.org/archives/022567.php

 

[R_not]

**That is wrong. The kafir or the enemy in Islam is the same as there were in the time of Jesus, even worse than that. An enemy is the one who does not believe in Islam and does not let any one believe in Islam. He/She does not let the believers to have rest. He/She fights Islam. I hope you understand that. That is the open declared enemy called kafir.

But if any one does not believe in Allah or Muhammad or Jesus or moses, it does not matter as long as he is peaceful. If he is a Jew or a christian, he can even preach his religion peacefully. There is no bar. But it is well known some religions (as one is seen here is violent and abusive) cannot remain peaceful. Then they are asking for trouble. Otherwise Islam is all for peace and permits all to live well happily like Muslims are now living in western countries.

Only part of your post is true.

**

There wasn’t such a thing as islam, or islam’s kafur, at the time of Jesus. To think that is only what mohammed told you to think and mohammed made it all up.

The only place that anyone else other than muslims can preach their religion in safety is in our lands, not muslim lands. So, you mislead (or deceive) us in your assertion.

The only reason why you live in peace in our countries are due to our laws, not muslim laws (or sharia law).

I don’t know what you mean by ‘But it is well known some religions (as one is seen here is violent and abusive) cannot remain peaceful. Then they are asking for trouble.’. But if I am to understand what you are saying you think it is indeed ok to become violent over words. Well, we shouldn’t be surprised since we saw such violence over cartoons, some movies, etc. while nothing is ever said, or done, to curb the violence of other muslims by the so called masses of ‘moderates’.

Old nuns were killed, people who had nothing to do with the cartoons and movies such as the embassy workers were killed, Churches were destroyed, etc. I only see energy in people like you trying to twist islam into something that it is not - peaceful - while nothing is done to curb the violence. But, we shouldn’t be surprised since you are even saying it is ok to be violent over words.

 

[Sam_777]

Just to clarify a point. The commotion about Prof. is to be understood in the context of a peculiar German institution. Confessional instruction. In german schools pupils are taught religion according to their confession. Prof. Kalisch instructs future reiligious teachers (‘Religionslehrer’). His christian colleagues, be they catholic or otherwise, are obliged by their respective churches to believe in the central tenets of their confession. Now the islamic council in Germany asks for the same standard. Nothing more, nothing less. Nobody has a problem with Prof. Kalisch doing his research etc. However, his post aims at the education of confessional teachers, not islamic studies or scholarship in general.
While the whole concept of school-instruction may be a difficult one, this is not a question of free science or not. The contents of Kalisch’s claim are a different matter altogether. Technically, I think, he has ceased to be a muslim.
But of course, his opinions aren’t ‘criminal’, just debatable.

Welcome Dekator to CAF ,

Can you get us his research?

 

[planten]

To muslims, the enemy of islam is anyone who figures out islam and do not want to be subjugated, killed or converted. Too bad muslims don’t keep their ‘religion’ to themselves if someone rejects it, but they do not. In fact, it bodes ill for those muslims who figure it out and want to leave it if they reside in muslim lands too. They have only a limited amount of time to repent and either accept or die.

There will be many who you lump into kafir because they reject islam. You are suggesting violence against many just because they don’t want islam.

europenews.dk/en/node/13862
Islam is a Violent “Faith”
By Dr. Sami Alrabaa September 07 2008

This is an article by a muslim too. this article only has a few of the violence that is taught to be used against anyone who rejects islam. Just because they reject it - they are to be killed.

mohammed didn’t know the Bible and screwed up the Biblical stories and he told you guys that we were the ones who screwed up the stories. And way too many muslims haven’t figured out that with all the translations, all of the bibles that were available at his time - they were all consistent, while he was not. He, who was an illiterate who couldn’t have read them for himself.

I do not need any article from some one. If you had any disturbing verse then you could have quoted it. But it seems that you have nothing. That is very good for all of us here.

 

[R_not]

I do not need any article from some one. If you had any disturbing verse then you could have quoted it. But it seems that you have nothing. That is very good for all of us here.

The article is full of them. You are afraid to read the article? The rules are to post the website and let you READ the articles instead of posting the whole article. So, I will just post some surahs since you are unable to fathom that there are rules.

**O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. (Sura 5, verse 51)

And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah DESTROY them; how they are turned away! (Sura 9, verse 30)

And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say: Surely Allah’s guidance, that is the (true) guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper. (Sura 2, verse 120)

And KILL them (the unbelievers) wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers. (Sura 2, verse 191)

Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming. (Sura 3, verse 28)

And guard yourselves against the fire which has been prepared for the unbelievers. (Sura 3, verse 131)

And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer, if you fear that those who disbelieve will cause you distress, surely the unbelievers are your open ENEMY. (Sura 4, verse 101)

O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil). (Sura 9, verse 123)

Surely We have prepared for the unbelievers chains and shackles and a burning fire. (Sura 76, verse 4)

O you who believe! if you obey a party from among those who have been given the Book (The Jews and Christians), they will turn you back as unbelievers after you have believed. (Sura 3, verse 100)

And their taking usury (interests on money) though indeed they were forbidden it and their devouring the property of people falsely, and We have prepared for the unbelievers from among them a painful chastisement. (Sura 4. verse 161)

Surely Allah has cursed the unbelievers (Jews, Christians and followers of other faiths) and has prepared for them a burning fire. (Sura 33, verse 64)

And whoever does not believe in Allah and His Apostle, then surely We have prepared burning fire for the unbelievers. (Sura 48, verse 13)**

And here we have where this moon god says to kill apostates - even though you are trying to say muslims don’t do it - we all know that they indeed do follow mohammed’s words:
Therefore, what does the Koran say about those who turn their back to Islam and commit apostasy?

They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them (the unbelievers) friends until they flee (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and KILL them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper. (Sura 4, verse 89)

 

[planten]

The article is full of them. You are afraid to read the article? The rules are to post the website and let you READ the articles instead of posting the whole article. So, I will just post some surahs since you are unable to fathom that there are rules.

**O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. (Sura 5, verse 51)

And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah DESTROY them; how they are turned away! (Sura 9, verse 30)

And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say: Surely Allah’s guidance, that is the (true) guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper. (Sura 2, verse 120)

And KILL them (the unbelievers) wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers. (Sura 2, verse 191)

Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming. (Sura 3, verse 28)

And guard yourselves against the fire which has been prepared for the unbelievers. (Sura 3, verse 131)

And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer, if you fear that those who disbelieve will cause you distress, surely the unbelievers are your open ENEMY. (Sura 4, verse 101)

O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil). (Sura 9, verse 123)

Surely We have prepared for the unbelievers chains and shackles and a burning fire. (Sura 76, verse 4)

O you who believe! if you obey a party from among those who have been given the Book (The Jews and Christians), they will turn you back as unbelievers after you have believed. (Sura 3, verse 100)

And their taking usury (interests on money) though indeed they were forbidden it and their devouring the property of people falsely, and We have prepared for the unbelievers from among them a painful chastisement. (Sura 4. verse 161)

Surely Allah has cursed the unbelievers (Jews, Christians and followers of other faiths) and has prepared for them a burning fire. (Sura 33, verse 64)

And whoever does not believe in Allah and His Apostle, then surely We have prepared burning fire for the unbelievers. (Sura 48, verse 13)**

And here we have where this moon god says to kill apostates - even though you are trying to say muslims don’t do it - we all know that they indeed do follow mohammed’s words:
Therefore, what does the Koran say about those who turn their back to Islam and commit apostasy?

They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them (the unbelievers) friends until they flee (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and KILL them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper. (Sura 4, verse 89)

**I will attack you about the first verse only now in which it is said that “O muslim do not make friends with Jews and christians.” That is a wrong translation of the word “Wali” or plural “Aulia”. Wali or Aulia means allies or protectors. So the translation of verse 5:51 is as follows:

5:51, O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for allies; they are allies of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for an ally, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.**

The other material I will take up in next post. I hope you are satisfied about the above translation.

 

[planten]

The post from R_not:

And KILL them (the unbelievers) wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers. (Sura 2, verse 191)

**There was necessity to post the verse 2:190 also. But RNot was not honest to do that. I will do it. See:

[2:190] And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but do not transgress. Surely, Allah loves not the transgressors.
[2:191] And slay these transgressors (enemies) wherever you meet them and drive them out from where they have driven you out; for persecution is worse than slaying. And fight them not in and near the Sacred Mosque until they fight you therein. But if they fight you, then fight them. Such is the requital for the hostile fanatic disbelievers**.

Can you now see the light of the Quran? It is telling to fight those who are fighting the Muslism,who are turningthem out of their houses, who are hostile disbelievers. Islam is not telling to kill any innocent man. Why are you complaining?

 

[thedavidwilson]

**There was necessity to post the verse 2:190 also. But RNot was not honest to do that. I will do it. See:

[2:190] And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but do not transgress. Surely, Allah loves not the transgressors.
[2:191] And slay these transgressors (enemies) wherever you meet them and drive them out from where they have driven you out; for persecution is worse than slaying. And fight them not in and near the Sacred Mosque until they fight you therein. But if they fight you, then fight them. Such is the requital for the hostile fanatic disbelievers**.

Can you now see the light of the Quran? It is telling to fight those who are fighting the Muslism,who are turningthem out of their houses, who are hostile disbelievers. Islam is not telling to kill any innocent man. Why are you complaining?

Unfortunately for us non-muslims the definition of a “civillian” and an “attack on islam” or “transgressing” are hotly debated topics in mainstream islam today. For example one of the 4 schools of islamic jurisprudence holds that the existance of anything that is not islamic (like Catholocism) is an attack on islam and one can legitimately and violently “defend” islam from this.

The other schools hold that things such as pictures, writings (or converts) that appear to defame islam is grounds for jihad (and not the inner spiritual kind). That is why we see deaths resulting from cartoons and converts from islam being threatened.

Yes Islam is a religion of “peace”, but in the same way Nazi Germany in the 1930’s was “peaceful” and Nazi Germany invaded Europe to “defend” german heritage and ideals.

 

[thedavidwilson]

**I will attack you about the first verse only now in which it is said that “O muslim do not make friends with Jews and christians.” That is a wrong translation of the word “Wali” or plural “Aulia”. Wali or Aulia means allies or protectors. So the translation of verse 5:51 is as follows:

5:51, O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for allies; they are allies of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for an ally, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.**

The other material I will take up in next post. I hope you are satisfied about the above translation.

Usually allies are people you can trust and can count on to defend your rights. Are you saying that we cannot trust any “true” muslim?

 

[planten]

More from R_Not:

Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming. (Sura 3, verse 28)

**Let not the believers take the hostile fanatic disbelievers **for allies and supporters rather than believers;

And guard yourselves against the fire which has been prepared for the unbelievers. (Sura 3, verse 131)

And Jesus also said a similar thing. I read it in the bible today. What is your problem?

And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer, if you fear that those who disbelieve will cause you distress, surely the unbelievers are your open ENEMY. (Sura 4, verse 101)

**And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer, if you fear that those who are enemy type disbelievers **will cause you distress, surely those unbelievers are your open ENEMY. (Sura 4, verse 101

O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil). (Sura 9, verse 123)

**O you who believe! fight those of the enemy type disbelievers (Kuffar) **who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil). (Sura 9, verse 123

Surely We have prepared for the unbelievers chains and shackles and a burning fire. (Sura 76, verse 4)

Surely We have prepared for the hostile fanatic disbelievers (Kuffar) chains and shackles and a burning fire. (Sura 76, verse 4)

O you who believe! if you obey a party from among those who have been given the Book (The Jews and Christians), they will turn you back as unbelievers after you have believed. (Sura 3, verse 100)

**O you who believe! if you obey a party from among those who have been given the Book (The Jews and Christians), they will make you back as kafirs (enemies of Islam) disbelievers **after you have believed. (Sura 3, verse 100)

And their taking usury (interests on money) though indeed they were forbidden it and their devouring the property of people falsely, and We have prepared for the unbelievers from among them a painful chastisement. (Sura 4. verse 161)

**And their taking usury (interests on money) though indeed they were forbidden it and their devouring the property of people falsely, and We have prepared for the hostile fanatic disbelievers **from among them a painful chastisement. (Sura 4. verse 161)

Surely Allah has cursed the unbelievers (Jews, Christians and followers of other faiths) and has prepared for them a burning fire. (Sura 33, verse 64)

**Surely Allah has cursed the fanatic hostile disbelievers **and has prepared for them a burning fire. (Sura 33, verse 64)

And whoever does not believe in Allah and His Apostle, then surely We have prepared burning fire for the unbelievers. (Sura 48, verse 13)

And whoever does not believe in Allah and His Apostle, then surely We have prepared burning fire for the fanatic hostile disbelievers. (Sura 48, verse 13)

 

[R_not]

**I will attack you about the first verse only now in which it is said that “O muslim do not make friends with Jews and christians.” That is a wrong translation of the word “Wali” or plural “Aulia”. Wali or Aulia means allies or protectors. So the translation of verse 5:51 is as follows:

5:51, O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for allies; they are allies of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for an ally, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.**

The other material I will take up in next post. I hope you are satisfied about the above translation.

Sorry, I don’t buy that since it is muslim interpreters to these passages. All your explanation is to muddy the waters - just another tactic used. If you and your other muslims who tell us this would go and tell the ones killing others your interpretation - then maybe I might believe you but you don’t and have no intention to do so.

You won’t read the article so I won’t buy your explanation. It was a muslim who wrote the article.

 

[R_not]

**Let not the believers take the hostile fanatic disbelievers **for allies and supporters rather than believers;

And Jesus also said a similar thing. I read it in the bible today. What is your problem?

**And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer, if you fear that those who are enemy type disbelievers **will cause you distress, surely those unbelievers are your open ENEMY. (Sura 4, verse 101

**O you who believe! fight those of the enemy type disbelievers (Kuffar) **who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil). (Sura 9, verse 123

Surely We have prepared for the hostile fanatic disbelievers (Kuffar) chains and shackles and a burning fire. (Sura 76, verse 4)

**O you who believe! if you obey a party from among those who have been given the Book (The Jews and Christians), they will make you back as kafirs (enemies of Islam) disbelievers **after you have believed. (Sura 3, verse 100)

**And their taking usury (interests on money) though indeed they were forbidden it and their devouring the property of people falsely, and We have prepared for the hostile fanatic disbelievers **from among them a painful chastisement. (Sura 4. verse 161)

**Surely Allah has cursed the fanatic hostile disbelievers **and has prepared for them a burning fire. (Sura 33, verse 64)

And whoever does not believe in Allah and His Apostle, then surely We have prepared burning fire for the fanatic hostile disbelievers. (Sura 48, verse 13)

the whole problem with your explanation is the term ‘kafur’ and you know this. You are using it to muddy the waters of understanding. #1. only us infidels/kafur use the term ‘moderate’ - it is not used by muslims. That is why I prefer to just write ‘muslim’ instead of ‘jihadist’ or ‘moderate’ since they are both the same and doing jihad with the end purpose being the same for us - death, conversion or subjugation.

What you are implying is that unless we convert we are to accept subjugation and then we are not considered kafur anymore. You deceive us with the definitions of words and you know exactly what you are doing.

‘moderate muslim’ is a kafir term: frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=76B12F33-3165-47D1-80ED-C3F1ACD07D8A
or

Here is a quote since I know you are unable to read websites out of fear.

**Islamic doctrine defines what is moderate and not moderate. Since we are dealing with Islam, we need to know that the doctrine is dualistic. Islam can have two doctrines about any issue. This follows from the Koran. The early Koran, which was written in Mecca is generally religious. The Koran written in Medina is very political and includes jihad. The two Korans are not only very different, but they also contradict each other in major ways.

So we have the possibility of two kinds of moderate Muslims, since we have two doctrines. Osama bin Laden is a moderate Muslim, who follows the Koran of Medina, the Koran of jihad. Kafirs call him an extremist or radical Muslim. Actually, Osama obeys the Koran of Medina and the Sunna of Mohammed, so he is a moderate, pious Medinan Muslim.

The jihadists on September 11, 2001 were all moderate Medinan Muslims. They were not extremists or radicals.

The other kind of moderate Muslim follows the Koran of Mecca and he is more generally what kafirs mean when they say “moderate Muslim”. But how moderate is a Meccan Muslim? A moderate Muslim thinks that you are a kafir, but he isn’t violent, just antagonistic.

FP: So tell us exactly what “kafir” means. We take it to mean unbeliever but I presume it is more complicated than that.

Warner: The usual translation of this Arabic word is unbeliever, but unbeliever is only a very small part of its meaning. It is the Koran that defines the word “kafir” and it says the most terrible things can happen to them. The Koranic doctrine about kafirs says they are hated and are Satan’s friends. Kafirs can be robbed, killed, tortured, raped, mocked, cursed, condemned and plotted against. The Koran does not have one good thing to say about kafirs. (There are some psuedo-good words, but more about them later.)

For over the last 1400 years, 270 million kafirs have died as a result of the political doctrine of Islam. It is the biggest single source of suffering in the history of the world.

The word kafir is the worst word in the human language. It is far worse than the n-word, because the n-word is a personal opinion, whereas, kafir is Allah’s decree. Nearly two thirds of the Koran is devoted to the kafir. Islam is fixated on the kafir and the moderate Muslim thinks that you are a kafir. How moderate is that?

**

 

[planten]

Sorry, I don’t buy that since it is muslim interpreters to these passages. All your explanation is to muddy the waters - just another tactic used. If you and your other muslims who tell us this would go and tell the ones killing others your interpretation - then maybe I might believe you but you don’t and have no intention to do so.

You won’t read the article so I won’t buy your explanation. It was a muslim who wrote the article.

Whoever wrote the article, does not matter. May be he was a Muslim. He will soon be advised to do a better job. The matter was resting on the word WALI. I have explained that it means ally or supporter or guardian.

During the announcement of marriage ceremony, it is noted about the Wali of the bride. The question there to be answered is “Who is the Wali of the bride?” Does that mean who is the friend of the bride? Surely not. It means “Who is the guardian or supporter”. So Wali means guardian or supporter and not friend.

 

[Angelos]

**
During the announcement of marriage ceremony, it is noted about the Wali of the bride. The question there to be answered is “Who is the Wali of the bride?” Does that mean who is the friend of the bride? Surely not. It means “Who is the guardian or supporter”. So Wali means guardian or supporter and not friend.**

If we agree with you that the word WALI means supporter/guardian rather than friend, you will have to explain in what sense Muslims are asked not to have Jews and Christians as their suporters/guardians: financial? theological? physical? political?

Besides, you should explain what the Koran means by saying the Jews and Christians are WALI of one another.

 

[planten]

the whole problem with your explanation is the term ‘kafur’ and you know this. You are using it to muddy the waters of understanding. #1. only us infidels/kafur use the term ‘moderate’ - it is not used by muslims. That is why I prefer to just write ‘muslim’ instead of ‘jihadist’ or ‘moderate’ since they are both the same and doing jihad with the end purpose being the same for us - death, conversion or subjugation.

They are wrong if they forcefully demand conversion. You may kill them.

What you are implying is that unless we convert we are to accept subjugation and then we are not considered kafur anymore. You deceive us with the definitions of words and you know exactly what you are doing.

** That is not true. I want you to remain a good christian, not a one only using the name of Jesus as label.**

‘moderate muslim’ is a kafir term: frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=76B12F33-3165-47D1-80ED-C3F1ACD07D8A
or

kafir is an open (outspoken) enemy of Islam. If you are not an enemy then there is no problem to you.

Here is a quote since I know you are unable to read websites out of fear.

**Islamic doctrine defines what is moderate and not moderate. Since we are dealing with Islam, we need to know that the doctrine is dualistic. Islam can have two doctrines about any issue. This follows from the Koran. The early Koran, which was written in Mecca is generally religious. The Koran written in Medina is very political and includes jihad. The two Korans are not only very different, but they also contradict each other in major ways. **

**I do not know who wrote that article. You had two kinds of religions, the Jewish and the christian. How different they are. The harsh, killing type religion of the Jews and the gentle, meek type of Jesus.They are world apart. If you have no problem with any of those things then why do you have problem with Islam?

I had informed all friends that our prophet had two names, Ahmad and Muhammad. Ahmad meant love and beauty. Muhammad carries grace and power. The name Muhammad had been prophesied by Moses a.s. in Deut 18:18. That was about a prophet, the like of Moses.

The name Ahmad had been prophesied by Jesus in the bible (John ch 16) when he gave good news of Parclete. That was the Comforter. That was the news about Ahmad, the like of Jesus, gentle and full of love.

The name Ahmad was acting in Makkah in the face of very high persecution by the enemies. There was no retaliation. It was like offering the other cheek.

The name Muhammad (the like of Moses) was working in Madinah where the prophet did the same things about his enemies as did the prophet Moses a.s.

So what is the problem. Initially the muslims had no power and were persecuted in Makkah. They were like christians. So the guidance from God was accordingly, gentle and patience.

While in Madinah the Guidance was according to the situation. There is no problem at all. i need not read the rest of the article. Thanks.**

So we have the possibility of two kinds of moderate Muslims, since we have two doctrines. Osama bin Laden is a moderate Muslim, who follows the Koran of Medina, the Koran of jihad. Kafirs call him an extremist or radical Muslim. Actually, Osama obeys the Koran of Medina and the Sunna of Mohammed, so he is a moderate, pious Medinan Muslim.

The jihadists on September 11, 2001 were all moderate Medinan Muslims. They were not extremists or radicals.

The other kind of moderate Muslim follows the Koran of Mecca and he is more generally what kafirs mean when they say “moderate Muslim”. But how moderate is a Meccan Muslim? A moderate Muslim thinks that you are a kafir, but he isn’t violent, just antagonistic.

FP: So tell us exactly what “kafir” means. We take it to mean unbeliever but I presume it is more complicated than that.

Warner: The usual translation of this Arabic word is unbeliever, but unbeliever is only a very small part of its meaning. It is the Koran that defines the word “kafir” and it says the most terrible things can happen to them. The Koranic doctrine about kafirs says they are hated and are Satan’s friends. Kafirs can be robbed, killed, tortured, raped, mocked, cursed, condemned and plotted against. The Koran does not have one good thing to say about kafirs. (There are some psuedo-good words, but more about them later.)

For over the last 1400 years, 270 million kafirs have died as a result of the political doctrine of Islam. It is the biggest single source of suffering in the history of the world.

The word kafir is the worst word in the human language. It is far worse than the n-word, because the n-word is a personal opinion, whereas, kafir is Allah’s decree. Nearly two thirds of the Koran is devoted to the kafir. Islam is fixated on the kafir and the moderate Muslim thinks that you are a kafir. How moderate is that?

It is useless to discuss these things. I have honestly explained all above.