German Muslim professor expressed his doubt that Muhammad ever lived.

[planten]

Not an honest answer from dear Planten again. This is the 1000th time you are evading our questions and hijacking this thread with the help of your worthless and senseless arguments.

The only thing we are fed up with is NOT the Bible, but your pointless and baseless accusations.

Did one you here not say that Jesus did not give you any book?? He gave you the church?? Do you deny it?

 

[trustme80]

In the end, when you do not find anything in the Quran, you run to the Hadith which is slightly better (more reliable) than your bible. Both Hadith and bible are man made books. It is better not to indulge in the bible and Hadith too much.

but planten, without turning to the hadiths for explanations, the quran would make no sense

this is an entire surah ( a really short one ) :

Al-Feil ( The Elephant )

بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِيمِ
أَلَمْ تَرَ كَيْفَ فَعَلَ رَبُّكَ بِأَصْحَابِ الْفِيلِ

[105:1 Have you not considered how your Lord dealt with the possessors of the elephant?

أَلَمْ يَجْعَلْ كَيْدَهُمْ فِي تَضْلِيلٍ

[105:2 Did He not cause their war to end in confusion,

وَأَرْسَلَ عَلَيْهِمْ طَيْراً أَبَابِيلَ

[105:3 And send down (to prey) upon them birds in flocks,

تَرْمِيهِم بِحِجَارَةٍ مِّن سِجِّيلٍ

[105:4Casting against them stones of baked clay,

فَجَعَلَهُمْ كَعَصْفٍ مَّأْكُولٍ

[105:5 So He rendered them like straw eaten up?

what is the surah talking about ?
obviously, we have to look at the hadiths to find explanations
why not indulge in the hadiths to see a clear picture of what islam is all about ?

It is another important news for me now that the christians (in this forum) have started disowning the bible. They are fed up with it or something. They say Jesus never gave them any book.He gave them the church. That is another way of getting rid of the difficult book.

no one is disowning anything and no one is fed up with anything. Jesus really never wrote or gave any book.
Jesus gave the “good news” of salvation not a book called Injil, muhammad was simply wrong.

how is anything wrong, better ?

 

[Angelos]

Did one you here not say that Jesus did not give you any book?? He gave you the church?? Do you deny it?

Jesus is the WORD in flesh and the head of His own Church. The idea that He gave us a BOOK named Injeel is an absurdity derived from the Islamic presumptions. Is it so difficult for you to understand?

 

[R_not]

In the end, when you do not find anything in the Quran, you run to the Hadith which is slightly better (more reliable) than your bible. Both Hadith and bible are man made books. It is better not to indulge in the bible and Hadith too much.

It is another important news for me now that the christians (in this forum) have started disowning the bible. They are fed up with it or something. They say Jesus never gave them any book.He gave them the church. That is another way of getting rid of the difficult book.

the Bible is the most reliable while the koran and the hadiths were put together from jihadist’s memories about 200 years after mohammed died. The Bible - most specifically - the New Testament was written mostly by the men who were around Jesus. Paul was converted later, but his writings were also included. Many letters written by these men were also included. So, we have first hand writings of the New Testament and you have memories that might not have been very good writing the texts of islam.

Then there is the Old Testament. We have even found that some of the Old Testament stories that made us wonder found to be true. And the Jews were the ones who compiled the Old Testament - a literate people overall. While mohammed couldn’t even read or write.

Keep in mind that the earliest ones who memorized the koran were being killed on the battle fields.

“there are 25,000 ancient Bible parchments, scrolls, fragments, and letters testifying to the immediacy and accuracy of today’s Judeo-Christian scriptures. Yet the only archeological evidence that has survived from the Qur’an’s first century is a coin and an inscription inside the Dome of the Rock on the Jewish Temple Mount. These fragments differ from each other and from today’s book.”

The koran is full of abrogated surahs too. So, if mohammed couldn’t seem to ‘get it right’ the first time, why would a second guess be more correct?

I refer to the koran when necessary. I also know that you guys use as an excuse for the hadiths that you don’t follow them - but that is not true. And you know it - it is just more deception to try to excuse them away.

 

[Zlatan]

Salaam/peace

submits to God means obeying His all commands including accepting His Prophets .

We can’t accept one Prophet & reject another . So , it’s not possible for anyone to be a Muslim if s/he has doubt that the last Prophet or any ohter Prophet ever lived.

"The Messenger believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith.
Each one of them believes in God, His angels, His books, and His Messengers.

They say: ‘We make no distinction between one and another of His Messengers.’

And they say: ‘We hear, and we obey. We seek Thy forgiveness, Our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys.’" (Al-Baqarah, 2:285)

yes ia gree but i am still to see one shred of evidence which proves mohamemd was a prophet of god, so who his prophets were is a moot point. and as for there being no distinction between the prophets let me ask you this if all the prophets were equal in the sight of god and there was no disticntion between them then why did mohamme d ocmmand his followers to love him more than all of mankind which im plies he is the most important.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 13:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
"Allah’s Apostle said, “By Him in Whose Hands my life is, none of you will have faith till he loves me more than his father and his children.”

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 14:
Narrated Anas:
The Prophet said “None of you will have faith till he loves me more than his father, his children and all mankind.”

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 15:
Narrated Anas:
The Prophet said, "Whoever possesses the following three qualities will have the sweetness (delight) of faith:

1. The one to whom Allah and His Apostle becomes dearer than anything else.
2. Who loves a person and he loves him only for Allah’s sake.
3. Who hates to revert to Atheism (disbelief) as he hates to be thrown into the fire."

So mohammed said that we all must love him more than any other human, than all of mankind? clearly Mohammed was very immodest and egotistical and he himself made the distinction that he is the most worthy to be loved

 

[planten]

Jesus is the WORD in flesh and the head of His own Church. The idea that He gave us a BOOK named Injeel is an absurdity derived from the Islamic presumptions. Is it so difficult for you to understand?

**You should have admitted that jesus never had and never gave any book to you. Why to distort the words to make things ambigous?
If Jesus has nothing to do with bible then please do not quote from it.
**

 

[R_not]

**You should have admitted that jesus never had and never gave any book to you. Why to distort the words to make things ambigous?
If Jesus has nothing to do with bible then please do not quote from it.
**

planten is worrying about ambiguity!??!?!



The most ambiguous book on earth called the koran is theirs! Oh, it was real clear about killing though, and lying!! But, only the peaceful passages are shown to us while they don’t even practice them!!! Well, why should they? They were abrogated - and they deceive us when they ignore that fact!

 

[Angelos]

**You should have admitted that jesus never had and never gave any book to you. Why to distort the words to make things ambigous?
If Jesus has nothing to do with bible then please do not quote from it.
**

Since the New Testament was written down by Jesus’ disciples who wanted to testify to Jesus’ truth, we can and should quote from it. Jesus’ Church endorses all those writings as divinely inspired. We have been on the right path, stop worrying

 

[planten]

Since the New Testament was written down by Jesus’ disciples who wanted to testify to Jesus’ truth, we can and should quote from it. Jesus’ Church endorses all those writings as divinely inspired. We have been on the right path, stop worrying

So you have confirmed that Jesus did not recieve anything from God such as bible and also (out of animosity) you also deny that Jesus was given the Injeel. So that is well and good. No bible and no Injeel. It suits us all. Then you have nothing from Jesus. We do not care about the disciples, what they did. If Jesus did not have anything, how could he give anything to any one, just by walking and talking?

 

[Angelos]

So you have confirmed that Jesus did not recieve anything from God such as bible and also (out of animosity) you also deny that Jesus was given the Injeel. So that is well and good. No bible and no Injeel. It suits us all. Then you have nothing from Jesus. We do not care about the disciples, what they did. If Jesus did not have anything, how could he give anything to any one, just by walking and talking?

The following verse debunks your faulty presumption:

John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses: grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

 

[Zlatan]

If you guys want to study the koran i suggest you visit this site as it has a critical analysis of the koran and reveals the many errors in translation made on purpose when the koran is translated into english. You cant trust many of the English koranic translations as they are so deceptive. Yusif Ali is the worst of them all.

inthenameofallah.org/quran.html

 

[R_not]

If you guys want to study the koran i suggest you visit this site as it has a critical analysis of the koran and reveals the many errors in translation made on purpose when the koran is translated into english. You cant trust many of the English koranic translations as they are so deceptive. Yusif Ali is the worst of them all.

inthenameofallah.org/quran.html

thanks zlatan. I am going to peruse it. I think you need to let others in the UK know more since they are letting sharia law in their courts of law. That is the start of subjugation for all UK non-muslims. I almost fell off my seat when I read that.

I just cannot believe that the UK and the Europeans are in such a total mode of ignorance as to what they are doing.

 

[Contarini]

thanks zlatan. I am going to peruse it. I think you need to let others in the UK know more since they are letting sharia law in their courts of law. That is the start of subjugation for all UK non-muslims. I almost fell off my seat when I read that.

I just cannot believe that the UK and the Europeans are in such a total mode of ignorance as to what they are doing.

Perhaps you should not believe it. Perhaps you should read more reliable sources so that you understand what is really going on instead of making inflammatory remarks based on imperfect information.

Edwin

 

[Angelos]

If you guys want to study the koran i suggest you visit this site as it has a critical analysis of the koran and reveals the many errors in translation made on purpose when the koran is translated into english. You cant trust many of the English koranic translations as they are so deceptive. Yusif Ali is the worst of them all.

inthenameofallah.org/quran.html

Thanks a lot, Zlatan. This website has given me a new idea. Maybe I should do something similar and analyse/criticise the Islamic scripture verse by verse.

 

[Angelos]

Perhaps you should not believe it. Perhaps you should read more reliable sources so that you understand what is really going on instead of making inflammatory remarks based on imperfect information.

Edwin

Could you please share those reliable sources with us?

 

[Contarini]

Could you please share those reliable sources with us?

I do not have a lot of reliable sources. That is why I am not the one making confident claims. I have read Rowan Williams’ thought-provoking lecture “On Civil and Religious Law in England,” which was widely reported as a call for shari’a law. I know that many people on this board seriously misunderstood the nature of that lecture, so I am reasonably skeptical of sweeping and unsupported claims about this subject.

It’s rather odd to ask the person expressing skepticism to share their sources. I’m expressing skepticism because I do not have detailed knowledge, and I have the right to question whether the people making such confident claims know any more than I do.

A fairly cursory Internet search brought up this article from the New English Review, which I think lays out the issues fairly well. No one is suggesting that Islamic law should replace English law, which is what the phrase “letting sharia law in their courts of law” most naturally implies. Rather, what is being suggested is that Muslims might be allowed to arbitrate disputes among themselves according to the principles of shari’a law. The article criticizes this idea quite severely, but that does in fact appear to be the idea under consideration, not sharia “in courts of law.”

I am quite willing to hear evidence to the contrary, which was the point of my earlier post.

Edwin

 

[R_not]

Perhaps you should not believe it. Perhaps you should read more reliable sources so that you understand what is really going on instead of making inflammatory remarks based on imperfect information.

Edwin

Spoken like a true muslim! I only quote from the koran, hadiths and islamic history. I would say that you will get an A+ from a muslim for your response! When you wake up and look at websites such as zlatan, or jihadwatch.org, or faithfreedom.org you will find that what you know is very little about islam - only what muslims want you to know about it. And they want to confuse, spread misinformation and deceive - and make sure that if you don’t conver - you accept subjugation in the end.

 

[Contarini]

Spoken like a true muslim!

Oh don’t be silly. In my experience, Muslims are not as a group noteworthy for their concern with reliable sources. Perhaps you have a higher opinion of them than I do.

Edwin

 

[R_not]

Oh don’t be silly. In my experience, Muslims are not as a group noteworthy for their concern with reliable sources. Perhaps you have a higher opinion of them than I do.

Edwin

You are pushing against an open door on that one. I do not have a higher opinion of their ‘religion’, nor ones who try to push it onto others, or try to deceive us about it. If one uses their own koran, hadiths and history - then how can they complain?

Oh, they complain a lot because I know first hand how upset they get when one uses those sources to show the violence that is islam, and shows their koran to be nothing but a book of battle tactics - not even as well written as ‘The Art of War’! In fact, it is a poorly written book.

 

[R_not]

Perhaps you should not believe it. Perhaps you should read more reliable sources so that you understand what is really going on instead of making inflammatory remarks based on imperfect information.

Edwin

I realized what you were saying, and here is my resume on islam (much to the consternation of many muslims on this site! ) - I have read more on islam than the muslims have read and know about islam. I have read their koran - more than many muslims have read it. I have read a lot of their hadiths - more than any muslims have read them. I have read over 50 books on some aspect of islamic history in relation to India, the Middle East, Europe and the UK, Africa, Southeast Asia and also our own nation, including Canada and Australia. And I keep abreast of anything islamic on a daily basis by jihadwatch.org. I belong to Act for America too. And most of this is more than many muslims have read about, especially some of their recent converts.

I have also read a lot of hogwash by some appeasers, such as Dinesh D’Souza. If this website that Zlatan has recommended can be used as a good resource then this is very good. faithfreedom.org is another website that I use as a good website, along with some other websites that I prefer not to mention because people might get turned off due to their wordage. I like them because they are refreshing and just ‘say it like it is’ which so many are very uptight about that sort of thing.

My heros are Geert Wilders, Robert Spencer, Walid Shoebat, Wafa Sultan, Ali Sina, Brigette Gabriel (who started Act for America), and anyone who is taking a stand and letting people know about islam even to the danger to their own person because everyone I have named and those who are not named have fatwas against them. Yeah, that ‘religion of peace’ has the seeds of extreme violence in it and the clerics who put out fatwas know that any muslim can carry out the fatwa just as Theo Van Gogh found out one day.