Germany: 162,000 Catholics left Church, 537 parishes closed in 2016 [CC]

[Athanasiy]

Did the locomotive of transformation begin with Martin Luther? This is the 500th anniversary of the Reformation.
Hitler had his dreams for Germany and the world…

The history of the church does not begin with the era of Martin Luther. Speaking of the Germans as a great nation, I do not mean exclusively German Catholic spirituality, though we have a rich history before Luther and after Luther.
Yes, I think that both in the Lutheran era and in the era of Hitler, the Germans were making big mistakes.
For example, at this time, we are accustomed to demonizing Hitler, the nations who fought on the side of Hitler with the Bolshevik virus dreamed of their independence from Bolshevism, and not the enslavement by the Germans, people fought against communism and for a new Europe, and not for expansionist pan-Germanism.
There were queues of young lads in the Lviv army-recrutment-offices for the war against Bolshevism, because the youth saw themselves as Christendom against the Bolshevik wicked godless plague.
A colossal historical chance was lost because of the political short-sightedness of the highest German leadership. In one private conversation, Metropolitan Andrey Sheptytsky will say: “The Germans lost this war as a result of their idiotic domestic, especially national, politics.” The official Berlin during Hitler, was not looking- for creation a supranational empire, he spoke exclusively on the modern, national imperialism. Thus Hitler not only buried chance for all over Europe, but also doomed to defeat his own fatherland.
With the advent of Luther, Hitler, the history does not need to be interpreted one-sidedly, the historical mistakes of great nations usually change the entire history of the world and its movement, but it does not take away the title of a nation as a great nation.

 

[liturgyluver]

Yes - I hear about Catholic leaders from Germany having the best and most progressive models for Church growth and evangelization. And they’re setting the agenda for everyone else?

Actually the numerical decline in Germany is much lower than in it in the USA. .

In the US the Catholic church lost 3.4 million Catholics between 2007 and 2014 - that is a loss of 485,000 per year and Catholic now represent just 20% of the US population.

pewforum.org/2015/05/12/americas-changing-religious-landscape/

In2007, there were 227 million adults in the United States, and a little more than 78% of them – or roughly 178 million – identified as Christians. Between 2007 and 2014, the overall size of the U.S. adult population grew by about 18 million people, to nearly 245 million.7But the share of adults who identify as Christians fell to just under 71%, or approximately 173 million Americans, a net decline of about 5 million.

This decline is larger than the combined margins of sampling error in the twin surveys conducted seven years apart. Using the margins of error to calculate a probable range of estimates, it appears that the number of Christian adults in the U.S. has shrunk by somewhere between 2.8 million and 7.8 million

 

[commenter]

Actually the numerical decline in Germany is much lower than in it in the USA. .

In the US the Catholic church lost 3.4 million Catholics between 2007 and 2014 - that is a loss of 485,000 per year and Catholic now represent just 20% of the US population.

pewforum.org/2015/05/12/americas-changing-religious-landscape/

In2007, there were 227 million adults in the United States, and a little more than 78% of them – or roughly 178 million – identified as Christians. Between 2007 and 2014, the overall size of the U.S. adult population grew by about 18 million people, to nearly 245 million.7But the share of adults who identify as Christians fell to just under 71%, or approximately 173 million Americans, a net decline of about 5 million.

This decline is larger than the combined margins of sampling error in the twin surveys conducted seven years apart. Using the margins of error to calculate a probable range of estimates, it appears that the number of Christian adults in the U.S. has shrunk by somewhere between 2.8 million and 7.8 million

I think we all agree Christianity is losing strength in Europe and the US, probably across the board. It is hard to compare data from different studies and different cultures. The US has a fairly high percentage of Catholic immigration, so it is hard to measure the extent of “American” decline.
The problem is studies often confuse “belonging to the Catholic Church”, and “belonging to the Catholic Faith”. Many who have left one, have not (yet) left the other. I don’t know about Germany, but in my American city there is a smorgasbord of different non denominationals. Many Catholics and Protestants go to these places **some **of the time. How do you count these browsers?

Furthermore, the traditional boundary lines are now fluid. Non denominationals are apparently grouped with evangelicals, but they generally have a lot less doctrine, though what little doctrine they do have is evangelical. Many denominations traditionally classed as evangelical have as a whole, or at least congregations, flipped on issues like abortion and SSM, like a Baptist congregation I know of.

My personal take on this is that the Catholic Church is in trouble in Germany and the US alike. We badly need evangelization, not just to bring people into the Catholic Church but into the Faith. In my diocese they start another evangelism program every 3 years of so. All of these programs omit doctrinal content. (“Come as you are, stay as you are; here is where you are accepted. We won’t shove dogma down anyone’s throat”).
None of these programs show any success.

 

[liturgyluver]

I think we all agree Christianity is losing strength in Europe and the US, probably across the board. It is hard to compare data from different studies and different cultures. The US has a fairly high percentage of Catholic immigration, so it is hard to measure the extent of “American” decline.
The problem is studies often confuse “belonging to the Catholic Church”, and “belonging to the Catholic Faith”. Many who have left one, have not (yet) left the other. I don’t know about Germany, but in my American city there is a smorgasbord of different non denominationals. Many Catholics and Protestants go to these places **some **of the time. How do you count these browsers?

Furthermore, the traditional boundary lines are now fluid. Non denominationals are apparently grouped with evangelicals, but they generally have a lot less doctrine, though what little doctrine they do have is evangelical. Many denominations traditionally classed as evangelical have as a whole, or at least congregations, flipped on issues like abortion and SSM, like a Baptist congregation I know of.

My personal take on this is that the Catholic Church is in trouble in Germany and the US alike. We badly need evangelization, not just to bring people into the Catholic Church but into the Faith. In my diocese they start another evangelism program every 3 years of so. All of these programs omit doctrinal content. (“Come as you are, stay as you are; here is where you are accepted. We won’t shove dogma down anyone’s throat”).
None of these programs show any success.

I generally agree with what you say above. It’s interesting how the Catholic Church has slightly different cultures in each country I have visited. My own superficial observations are as follows: Italy my country of origin has Catholicism in its blood and identity, but outside of the big cities, mass attendance is very poor and few young people seem to be at church (this is even more apparent in the south). The UK where I live doesn’t have the same instinctive Catholicism in general but the catholic church is holding up well, churches are full - many to overflowing in London and big cities - and the liturgy has a good variety from solemn masses to folk, the full range is represented at many parishes. I found many of the US catholic parishes I visited devoid of participation - very few bothering with the responses at all, no singing, people looking bored, chatting in communion lines - all in all not very inspiring. But In Germany, in all the main cities mass was well attended with beautiful execution of the liturgy, lovely hymns which everyone sang, and challenging and thoughtful sermons.

 

[ARSpade]

Actually the numerical decline in Germany is much lower than in it in the USA. .

Yeah, but how many Americans are in high church positions or driving the agenda’s of Synods and whatnot, and have the Pope’s ear?

 

[commenter]

It would help to ask what Christian communities or movements are holding their own, or growing, in Germany. Is there a flourishing sub set of Lutheranism? What makes them different? I wonder if the evangelicals or pentecostals have made progess…Are there any religious orders that are growing here? Maybe a Catholic lay movement or 2?

 

[Pulvis]

The reformation, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, enlightenment theology all set the stage for what we see today. The division of the Church and it’s influence in peoples lives and on the rulers of the city-states, the loss of faith by many as they were exposed to heretical teachings from the Protestant leaders, the loss of faith of those who bought into the enlightenment philosophies all contributed to the foundational shift and subsequent fall of Christianity in the European and European Ancestry countries.
Look to the Old Testament Jews to see the correlation between turning ones back on God and the results of those actions. We have no right to be surprised at the state of the Church today when we, as believers and members of Christ’s Body, sat back and allowed the Faith to be diffused, modified and redesigned by both laity and Clergy alike.
Living in this current era presents both agony and Blessed Hope. Agony of watching the Church disintegrate. Blessed Hope in knowing that our Lord and His Mother will prevail!

 

[Randolph]

The reformation, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, enlightenment theology all set the stage for what we see today. The division of the Church and it’s influence in peoples lives and on the rulers of the city-states, the loss of faith by many as they were exposed to heretical teachings from the Protestant leaders, the loss of faith of those who bought into the enlightenment philosophies all contributed to the foundational shift and subsequent fall of Christianity in the European and European Ancestry countries.
Look to the Old Testament Jews to see the correlation between turning ones back on God and the results of those actions. We have no right to be surprised at the state of the Church today when we, as believers and members of Christ’s Body, sat back and allowed the Faith to be diffused, modified and redesigned by both laity and Clergy alike.
Living in this current era presents both agony and Blessed Hope. Agony of watching the Church disintegrate. Blessed Hope in knowing that our Lord and His Mother will prevail!

Well stated. I would also add that, under the false pretense of love and mercy and under the empty promise of tolerance and inclusion, we have been seeing the bad results of the well-disguised agenda of replacing the will of Christ with the will of men in the Catholic Church. Satan is quite clever in masking this replacement. The Catholic Church ceases to be her Catholic self without Christ.

Christ will keep His promise to protect the Catholic Church.

 

[Constantin]

This is very sad. I am a German Catholic and could write a lot of things here. Most of the major points were already mentioned. I have a slightly different point of view, though. Liberalism, too much modernism, church taxes, no evangelization are all contributing factors, no doubt. But I would not blame the Church so much. Imho it’s the people. Parents praying with their children, teaching about the faith and going to mass. This is all that really matters, passing on the faith to the next generation. My parents’ generation largely failed here. If I go to mass on Sunday, I am the only person between 15-30. No young people apart from the communities of the tradition. My explanation is wealth. Germany is rich. Not quite as the US, but close. Many people have a convenient life and do not have to worry too much about the future. They simply don’t need no god or church anymore. That is of course an oversimplification, but it remains the core of the problem.

 

[Kielbasi]

162,093 Catholics left the Church in Germany during 2016—down from 181,925 in 2015, according to statistics released by the bishops’ conference on July 21.

is this an ‘estimate’ or an actual tally of people formally quitting?

if the latter, it does indicate a crisis, having those many actually taking negative action is problematic

 

[commenter]

This is very sad. I am a German Catholic and could write a lot of things here. Most of the major points were already mentioned. I have a slightly different point of view, though. Liberalism, too much modernism, church taxes, no evangelization are all contributing factors, no doubt. But I would not blame the Church so much. Imho it’s the people. Parents praying with their children, teaching about the faith and going to mass. This is all that really matters, passing on the faith to the next generation. My parents’ generation largely failed here. If I go to mass on Sunday, I am the only person between 15-30. No young people apart from the communities of the tradition. My explanation is wealth. Germany is rich. Not quite as the US, but close. Many people have a convenient life and do not have to worry too much about the future. They simply don’t need no god or church anymore. That is of course an oversimplification, but it remains the core of the problem.

Thanks for a German POV. It is too tempting for all of us to assume we are experts on all fields, for all countries, but it helps to get (name removed by moderator)ut from someone with first hand experience. What kinds of Christian movements are doing well, or holding their own in Germany?

 

[SuperLuigi]

I would say the reason is the failure of the Church. I’m tired of people blaming every other thing than the Church for losing members. If the faith meant that much to people they wouldn’t just up and leave. If the Church failed them as youngsters and failed to catechize and failed to address their lives, you can’t blame secular humanism. You have to blame the institution that failed them.

:clapping:

Gee, I don’t know… If I did that, someone would just accuse me of attacking the Pope and the clergy.

Truth be told, your comment should be taken seriously. Or have we become so arrogant as an institution we think we are above correction?

 

[SolicitorPirate]

This is very sad. I am a German Catholic and could write a lot of things here. Most of the major points were already mentioned. I have a slightly different point of view, though. Liberalism, too much modernism, church taxes, no evangelization are all contributing factors, no doubt. But I would not blame the Church so much. Imho it’s the people. Parents praying with their children, teaching about the faith and going to mass. This is all that really matters, passing on the faith to the next generation. My parents’ generation largely failed here. If I go to mass on Sunday, I am the only person between 15-30. No young people apart from the communities of the tradition. My explanation is wealth. Germany is rich. Not quite as the US, but close. Many people have a convenient life and do not have to worry too much about the future. They simply don’t need no god or church anymore. That is of course an oversimplification, but it remains the core of the problem.

Not entirely sure I agree with you. We live in an interconnected world; people are simply going to be exposed secular thought as well as other religious teachings because of how freely information flows. Obviously someone raised Catholic is more likely to be a Catholic later in life, but there’s nothing a previous generation can do to guarantee their children will be religious. Hell, I went through Catholic schooling and come from a strongly Catholic family - my grandfather is a Knight Commander of the Order of St Gregory the Great and mum is a devout Catholic - and all it accomplished was me following them to church on the weekends when I was a child.

You are right however that as a well off country, Germans are increasingly irreligious. There is a general inverse relationship between a country’s quality of life and it’s religiosity. Which makes sense to me; religion is much more attractive if your situation is so dire that your only hope is supernatural in nature

 

[Constantin]

Thanks for a German POV. It is too tempting for all of us to assume we are experts on all fields, for all countries, but it helps to get (name removed by moderator)ut from someone with first hand experience. What kinds of Christian movements are doing well, or holding their own in Germany?

I think no Christian movement is really doing well. High-church evangelicals are doing worst. Protestantism is really done for in Germany, though they are miserably trying to make something out of the 500 years of reformation anniversary. Overall, Protestantism is much weaker than in the US, especially in southern Germany.Eastern Orthodoxy is stable due to immigration. The only community which may be growing a bit are small Pentecostal communities, but they are really low in numbers historically. Islam alone experiences massive growth.

 

[Constantin]

Not entirely sure I agree with you. We live in an interconnected world; people are simply going to be exposed secular thought as well as other religious teachings because of how freely information flows. Obviously someone raised Catholic is more likely to be a Catholic later in life, but there’s nothing a previous generation can do to guarantee their children will be religious. Hell, I went through Catholic schooling and come from a strongly Catholic family - my grandfather is a Knight Commander of the Order of St Gregory the Great and mum is a devout Catholic - and all it accomplished was me following them to church on the weekends when I was a child.

You are right however that as a well off country, Germans are increasingly irreligious. There is a general inverse relationship between a country’s quality of life and it’s religiosity. Which makes sense to me; religion is much more attractive if your situation is so dire that your only hope is supernatural in nature

Sure, I agree there is no guarantee. It’s all about likelihoods. If your parents try to pass on the faith, there is at least a chance that you will stay Catholic later in your life. If it’s only 20 out of hundred, fine, still better than the 3-4 converts you will get if you don’t raise your children in the faith. Those are not actual numbers, it’s just to get across the idea.

 

[SuperLuigi]

You are right however that as a well off country, Germans are increasingly irreligious. There is a general inverse relationship between a country’s quality of life and it’s religiosity. Which makes sense to me; religion is much more attractive if your situation is so dire that your only hope is supernatural in nature

Then why is the quality of life declining in places where irreligion has been a trend?

 

[SolicitorPirate]

Then why is the quality of life declining in places where irreligion has been a trend?

Gonna need receipts on that claim.

With limited exception, well off countries are significantly less religious than poorer countries

gallup.com/poll/142727/religiosity-highest-world-poorest-nations.aspx

journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1069397111402465

I’ll grant that on an individual level, religion can often be a source of happiness, community and purpose. But that isn’t reflected on a national level; the better off and more educated a populace is, the less religious they become

 

[commenter]

I’ll grant that on an individual level, religion can often be a source of happiness, community and purpose. But that isn’t reflected on a national level; the better off and more educated a populace is, the less religious they become

• re: “better off” that is pretty hard to measure. Crime rates tend to increase as religion declines. On a societal level, no one would argue that countries that had declining religion - think Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union where political ideology supplanted Christianity for most people - were “well off”.
• re: “more educated” - I would not trust levels of institutional achievement as “education”. At the college level everything has been dumbed down. A person with a Masters degree now would likely know less than a person graduating with a Bachelor’s degree a few decades ago. The same dumbing down has taken place in high school, and probably lower. Knowlege of history is far weaker than before, even if they take courses supposedly about social matters. Whole areas of study that were strong in 1960, such as Philosophy or the Classics, have almost disappeared.

Sure there are exceptions, but as someone who was a field educator with graduate students up until recently for 25 years, I would say educational decline has occurred, corresponding very closely to the religious decline.