Getting exasperated with evangelicals

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Kaily

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Hi,

I have several questions. My boyfriend and his family are very conservative evangelicals, who truly do love Christ. They are not necessarily anti-catholic but they still obviously have problems with the Catholic Church, they do go to Mass with me at times by the way. I’m just getting frustrated by the fact that they try to throw Scripture at me to prove that the catholic Church is wrong on certain issues, one issue being Baptismal regeneration. They are not necessarily against infant baptism, but only see Baptism as an act of obedience after having faith in Christ. I’ve tried giving certain Scripture passages, but they always have another explanation, for example in Titus when it talks about the washing of regeneration, I said that was referring to baptism, they said, no it wasn’t or it would say the regeneration of washing not the washing of regeneration. Then I quoted acts, where it says repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins, and John when it talks about unless one is born from above with water and the spirit they will not enter the kingdom of Heaven. They explain that away as well and say well what about infants who die without baptism and I say of course they are saved, there are always exceptions. But then they say well baptism isn’t necessary for salvation then.

Its exasperating me and then we talk about non christians being saved as I believe those who through no fault of their own don’t know of Christ can be saved, of course they want Scripture evidence for this and say only those who believe in Christ and hear His word can be saved, we did come to the conclusion that we cannot know for certain what happens to these people and we as Christians need to evangelize. Then of course they have problems, with Mary, purgatory, the saints, that only the Catholic and Orthodox church have the real Eucharist. By the way, they are open to the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist but do not think you have to go to the Catholic Church to receive this, if they believe this in their heart than Christ comes to them as well.

I just get tired of them saying absolutely everything has to be found in Scripture, and I’m not to the point where I can sit and throw Scripture at them and explain everything the Catholic Church teaches, his dad has read some stuff, like On Being Catholic by Thomas Howard, but he still thinks he knows better and no church has it all. Then his dad who was watching EWTN said why would this guy attribute the gift of miracles to St. Joseph rather than God, because he was talking about how Joseph works miracles. Ugh! Help please!
 
Kaily,

It seems that you have given specific Scriptural references to your boyfriend and his parents regarding baptism. They cannot explain away what the Bible tells us about baptism so they twist the verses around so that it aligns with their thinking.

For example, in Acts 2:38, “But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” St. Peter is telling us that at baptism we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Evangelicals and fundamentalists see this verse as some sort of alter call, where we accept Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior and baptism comes later only for obedience sake.

Have you recommended they look at the Gospel of John 3:5? It reads “Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Jesus declares the necessity of baptism.
 
ziapueblo said:
Kaily,

It seems that you have given specific Scriptural references to your boyfriend and his parents regarding baptism. They cannot explain away what the Bible tells us about baptism so they twist the verses around so that it aligns with their thinking.

For example, in Acts 2:38, “But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” St. Peter is telling us that at baptism we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Evangelicals and fundamentalists see this verse as some sort of alter call, where we accept Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior and baptism comes later only for obedience sake.

Have you recommended they look at the Gospel of John 3:5? It reads “Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Jesus declares the necessity of baptism.
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Yes I pointed thave verse out in John as well and they still talked their way around it. Its so very frustrating. Could you give me reference, Scriptural that refer to Baptism removing the stain of Original sin as well. Thanks
 
Kaily said:
Hi,

I have several questions. My boyfriend and his family are very conservative evangelicals, who truly do love Christ. They are not necessarily anti-catholic but they still obviously have problems with the Catholic Church, they do go to Mass with me at times by the way. I’m just getting frustrated by the fact that they try to throw Scripture at me to prove that the catholic Church is wrong on certain issues, one issue being Baptismal regeneration. They are not necessarily against infant baptism, but only see Baptism as an act of obedience after having faith in Christ. I’ve tried giving certain Scripture passages, but they always have another explanation, for example in Titus when it talks about the washing of regeneration, I said that was referring to baptism, they said, no it wasn’t or it would say the regeneration of washing not the washing of regeneration. Then I quoted acts, where it says repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins, and John when it talks about unless one is born from above with water and the spirit they will not enter the kingdom of Heaven. They explain that away as well and say well what about infants who die without baptism and I say of course they are saved, there are always exceptions. But then they say well baptism isn’t necessary for salvation then.
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Be careful with this one. The Church doesn’t teach that unbaptized babies are “saved” - rather, that for their sake, we hope in God’s mercy.

Because of Adam’s sin (which we call “Original Sin”) the “default setting” before we get baptized is that we are on our way to Hell, even if we are still in the womb.

BUT, we also know that God’s will is for everyone to be saved, so we hope and trust in God’s mercy, that there is a way for those who die before Baptism to be baptized in some way (baptism of blood, baptism of desire, or actual water baptism) before they die or at the moment of death. Speculations include the idea that maybe their Guardian Angels baptize them, or maybe they receive the gift of insight to desire baptism, but we really don’t know, and there is nothing given to us in Scripture or in the Holy Tradition that can guide us; we just literally have no way of knowing.

One thing I would recommend for you to do is to go through the Catechism section on Baptism, and just keep reading it over and over until you kind of “get it” in your head. There are Scripture references and references to other ancient Christian writings, that you can find on-line at New Advent - just take a bit of time at least to glance through these, and maybe take a few notes, just for your own sake, to clarify all of the issues in your own mind, so that when they discuss it with you, even if you don’t convince them of anything, they see that you have a sound and airtight argument to present - that there isn’t any kind of “Well, I think the priest said …” type of thing going on - where you’re actually speaking from a position of personal understanding. 🙂

Not that you aren’t already doing that, for the most part, but it just would give you more of a platform to stand on, where if they say something like, “The early Christians did this,” you can say, “Well, you know, they did that for a short time in Rome during the 300s AD and it was kind of a fad, then, but I was reading recently what St. Justin was writing in the year 185 about that, and the consensus at that time was …” - this sort of response has a tendency to raise people’s level of respect, especially if you give them resources that they can look up for themselves. 😃
 
Yes, it is exasperating, isn’t it?

The problem is that they are chopping up the Bible into verses that suit their belief, when they should be looking at it as a whole.

They even separate this very clear saying of Jesus into two:
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” (Mark 16:16 RSV) Jesus is clearly saying that we must be baptized to be saved - but they look at the part that says we will be condemned if we do not believe, and take that to mean that baptism is optional.

(By the way, we don’t know for sure that unbaptized babies are in Heaven. We count on the mercy of our Lord, as when he told the “good thief,” “Today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”)

What we should do is take these together, and add them up. So when Paul says we should ignore the traditions of men (Col 2:8), but hold to and pass on the traditions he has told us (1 Co 11:2, 2 Th 2:15 & 3:6), then there must be two kinds of tradition. When Jesus says we must be baptized to be saved, and that our faith will save us (Lk 7:50), then we must have both.

As far as being saved goes, for those who have not heard the Word, refer them to Lk 18:26-27.

And ask them where the Bible says absolutely everything has to be found in Scripture. They will probably come back with 2 Tim 3:16. “Profitable” does not mean “sufficient.” Then refer them to
the last verse of John and the first verse of Luke. Surely, “many” means more than three - but those other Gospels have been lost to us.

There is also a helpful “cheat sheet” called the Catholic Verse Finder, here.

But don’t get your hopes up. I haven’t converted any Evangelicals yet. Above all, remain in charity with them.

God bless you and them,

Ruthie
 
I’ve quoted this one before to an Evangelical friend with regards to baptism and penitential practices and purgatory.

1 Corithians 15:29 "Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?"

St. Paul never condemned it. And by the way, it stopped him cold. From my experience, it stops them ALL cold. Which is why I only use it as a final card up my sleeve.
 
Kaily said:
Yes I pointed thave verse out in John as well and they still talked their way around it. Its so very frustrating. Could you give me reference, Scriptural that refer to Baptism removing the stain of Original sin as well. Thanks
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Acts 22:16, “And now why tarriest thou? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name.”

Romans 6:1-4, “What shall we say, then? shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. For we that are dead to sin, how shall we live any longer therein? Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death? For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life.”

1 Corinthians 6:11, “And such some of you were; but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Spirit of our God.”

1 Corinthians 12:13, “For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free; and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink.”

Galatians 3:26-27, “For you are all the children of God by faith, in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ, have put on Christ.”

1 Peter 3:18-22, "Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Who is on the right hand of God, swallowing down death, that we might be made heirs of life everlasting: being gone into heaven, the angels and powers and virtues being made subject to him.
 
Kaily said:
Hi,

I have several questions. My boyfriend and his family are very conservative evangelicals, who truly do love Christ. They are not necessarily anti-catholic but they still obviously have problems with the Catholic Church, they do go to Mass with me at times by the way. I’m just getting frustrated by the fact that they try to throw Scripture at me to prove that the catholic Church is wrong on certain issues, one issue being Baptismal regeneration. They are not necessarily against infant baptism, but only see Baptism as an act of obedience after having faith in Christ. I’ve tried giving certain Scripture passages, but they always have another explanation, for example in Titus when it talks about the washing of regeneration, I said that was referring to baptism, they said, no it wasn’t or it would say the regeneration of washing not the washing of regeneration. Then I quoted acts, where it says repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins, and John when it talks about unless one is born from above with water and the spirit they will not enter the kingdom of Heaven. They explain that away as well and say well what about infants who die without baptism and I say of course they are saved, there are always exceptions. But then they say well baptism isn’t necessary for salvation then.

Its exasperating me and then we talk about non christians being saved as I believe those who through no fault of their own don’t know of Christ can be saved, of course they want Scripture evidence for this and say only those who believe in Christ and hear His word can be saved, we did come to the conclusion that we cannot know for certain what happens to these people and we as Christians need to evangelize. Then of course they have problems, with Mary, purgatory, the saints, that only the Catholic and Orthodox church have the real Eucharist. By the way, they are open to the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist but do not think you have to go to the Catholic Church to receive this, if they believe this in their heart than Christ comes to them as well.

I just get tired of them saying absolutely everything has to be found in Scripture, and I’m not to the point where I can sit and throw Scripture at them and explain everything the Catholic Church teaches, his dad has read some stuff, like On Being Catholic by Thomas Howard, but he still thinks he knows better and no church has it all. Then his dad who was watching EWTN said why would this guy attribute the gift of miracles to St. Joseph rather than God, because he was talking about how Joseph works miracles. Ugh! Help please!
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They’re just trying to be charitable to you. They obviously love you or else they wouldn’t be trying to convert you or correct you. Keep them in your thoughts and prayers and bear with them in patience.
 
Kaily said:
Hi,

I have several questions. My boyfriend and his family are very conservative evangelicals, who truly do love Christ. They are not necessarily anti-catholic but they still obviously have problems with the Catholic Church, they do go to Mass with me at times by the way. I’m just getting frustrated by the fact that they try to throw Scripture at me to prove that the catholic Church is wrong on certain issues, one issue being Baptismal regeneration. They are not necessarily against infant baptism, but only see Baptism as an act of obedience after having faith in Christ. I’ve tried giving certain Scripture passages, but they always have another explanation, for example in Titus when it talks about the washing of regeneration, I said that was referring to baptism, they said, no it wasn’t or it would say the regeneration of washing not the washing of regeneration. Then I quoted acts, where it says repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins, and John when it talks about unless one is born from above with water and the spirit they will not enter the kingdom of Heaven. They explain that away as well and say well what about infants who die without baptism and I say of course they are saved, there are always exceptions. But then they say well baptism isn’t necessary for salvation then.

Its exasperating me and then we talk about non christians being saved as I believe those who through no fault of their own don’t know of Christ can be saved, of course they want Scripture evidence for this and say only those who believe in Christ and hear His word can be saved, we did come to the conclusion that we cannot know for certain what happens to these people and we as Christians need to evangelize. Then of course they have problems, with Mary, purgatory, the saints, that only the Catholic and Orthodox church have the real Eucharist. By the way, they are open to the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist but do not think you have to go to the Catholic Church to receive this, if they believe this in their heart than Christ comes to them as well.

I just get tired of them saying absolutely everything has to be found in Scripture, and I’m not to the point where I can sit and throw Scripture at them and explain everything the Catholic Church teaches, his dad has read some stuff, like On Being Catholic by Thomas Howard, but he still thinks he knows better and no church has it all. Then his dad who was watching EWTN said why would this guy attribute the gift of miracles to St. Joseph rather than God, because he was talking about how Joseph works miracles. Ugh! Help please!
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I am not Catholic and am a exaperating evangelical. Anyway, my advice to you is to be patient. They probably could mirror your post and say something about getting exasperated with their sons Catholic girlfriend.

Let them see your faith by your charity and patience.
 
Kaily

I am a former Southern Baptist, and I know where they are coming from. It will serve you justice to deal with them by using Scripture, but it will only go so far because anyone can take the Bible and “prove” their doctrine, interpretations of the Bible becomes not much more than opinions because there are so many of them that vary among Protestants.

My suggestion is to learn about the Early Church Fathers, those men who were taught by the Apostles themselves, and demonstrate to them that those men who were taught by the Apostles were Catholic, not Southern Baptist nor any other Protestant sect. The Sacred Doctrine that the Catholic Church teaches now is the same Doctrine the earliest Christians/Catholics taught in the 1st century. Only the Catholic Church has preserved that same Doctrine for 2000 years.

If you need help with the Church Fathers and the defense of the Faith using them, then I will be happy to help you to respond!
 
Well one thing you could chuck at 'em . . .

The books of the New Testament were never meant to be authoritative descriptions of how the Church should be run; they are simply not written as such. The attempt to find every facet of doctrine and theology expounded directly in scripture is a futile one because the apostles never meant to write such a thing. The New Testament is concerned with the life of Jesus (the 4 gospels), the acts of his apostles after his deaths (Acts), and various letters written by the apostles either to specific Churches or to Christians generally - as well as, of course, the Revelation of St. John. I think you should try to strike this problem at its source - why do they believe the Bible to be the be-all and end-all of everything? You can wrench practically any view you want from the Bible by interpreting it in a funny way - hence the 28,000 Protestant denominations. Christ would not have desired this situation, which is precisely why he created the Church as he did, with the heirs of Peter at its head to keep it unified.

Remind them that Catholics do believe the Bible to be inerrant; besides the Bible, we also have the infallible pronouncements of ecumenical councils and those few occasions in history when the Bishop of Rome himself decided to declare something ex cathedra. These are meant to guide the proper interpretation of scripture through the work of the Holy Spirit, and to expound upon the Sacred Tradition of the apostles. I might not have phrased that last sentence correctly but you get what I’m driving at, I think.

However you should be really careful not to do this in an argumentative way. That will likely drive them further from the Church, even if your arguments are very sound. Conversion is a slow process . . . better to pray and make a good example than to argue about theology. Have faith in God, and only resort to words if you must 🙂
 
COPLAND_3 said:
Kaily

I am a former Southern Baptist, and I know where they are coming from. It will serve you justice to deal with them by using Scripture, but it will only go so far because anyone can take the Bible and “prove” their doctrine, interpretations of the Bible becomes not much more than opinions because there are so many of them that vary among Protestants.

My suggestion is to learn about the Early Church Fathers, those men who were taught by the Apostles themselves, and demonstrate to them that those men who were taught by the Apostles were Catholic, not Southern Baptist nor any other Protestant sect. The Sacred Doctrine that the Catholic Church teaches now is the same Doctrine the earliest Christians/Catholics taught in the 1st century. Only the Catholic Church has preserved that same Doctrine for 2000 years.

If you need help with the Church Fathers and the defense of the Faith using them, then I will be happy to help you to respond!
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Sure, i would love help, what books on the early church fathers do you recommend? I know there is a good 3 volume set, what else though?

And thank the rest of you as well, I will try my best to be patient with them and charitable.
 
One other question, Evangelicals always quote how the thief on the cross was saved without baptism of water, and therefore baptism is not a requirement of salvation but only Jesus Christ is and its his blood that saves us. I have said about baptism of desire, etc… baptism of blood, but nothing seems to work. They just say, since the theif was saved baptism is not a requirement. I know they are reflecting on God’s character and don’t see how baptism could save because they also see that as taking Christ out of the act of salvation, but its Him who is working through these sacraments. Anymore thoughts?
 
Pwrlftr said:
I am not Catholic and am a exaperating evangelical. Anyway, my advice to you is to be patient. They probably could mirror your post and say something about getting exasperated with their sons Catholic girlfriend.

Let them see your faith by your charity and patience.
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Well said! 👍
 
Kaily said:
One other question, Evangelicals always quote how the thief on the cross was saved without baptism of water, and therefore baptism is not a requirement of salvation but only Jesus Christ is and its his blood that saves us. I have said about baptism of desire, etc… baptism of blood, but nothing seems to work. They just say, since the theif was saved baptism is not a requirement. I know they are reflecting on God’s character and don’t see how baptism could save because they also see that as taking Christ out of the act of salvation, but its Him who is working through these sacraments. Anymore thoughts?
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Riddle them this:

**1 Peter 3:21 **“and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,”
 
Frankly I am becoming disenchanted by the idea that most people can be persuaded to the truth with any argumentation, scriptural or otherwise. Many people are invested in their ideas, it is indeed for many a large part of who they are. So defending their ideas and beliefs is tantamount to the physical defense of their flesh. If this were not so then we would be one body, all believers in accord with one another. So with that being said, what can you do? Nothing, not one single thing. The Risen Christ changes hearts, that is what provides motivation for a change of the mind. So you continue to live your Faith out loud, Pray for their conversion, live an example of the faith which they cannot deny. Do not hide your light under a bushel basket, instead be the shining city on a hill, a beacon which will lead them home to the fullness of the truth.
 
Kaily said:
One other question, Evangelicals always quote how the thief on the cross was saved without baptism of water, and therefore baptism is not a requirement of salvation but only Jesus Christ is and its his blood that saves us. I have said about baptism of desire, etc… baptism of blood, but nothing seems to work. They just say, since the theif was saved baptism is not a requirement. I know they are reflecting on God’s character and don’t see how baptism could save because they also see that as taking Christ out of the act of salvation, but its Him who is working through these sacraments. Anymore thoughts?
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  1. Being God Incarnate, Jesus can save whomever He wants to. He is not bound by the commandments He gives to us.
2)How was the thief supposed to be baptized? It wasn’t an option for him at that point in his life, seeing as he was literally tied up (well, nailed up) at the moment.
  1. Jesus didn’t give the command for us to be baptized until after he rose from the dead and was ascending into heaven.
 
Kaily said:
Hi,

I have several questions. My boyfriend and his family are very conservative evangelicals, who truly do love Christ. They are not necessarily anti-catholic but they still obviously have problems with the Catholic Church, they do go to Mass with me at times by the way. I’m just getting frustrated by the fact that they try to throw Scripture at me to prove that the catholic Church is wrong on certain issues, one issue being Baptismal regeneration. They are not necessarily against infant baptism, but only see Baptism as an act of obedience after having faith in Christ. I’ve tried giving certain Scripture passages, but they always have another explanation, for example in Titus when it talks about the washing of regeneration, I said that was referring to baptism, they said, no it wasn’t or it would say the regeneration of washing not the washing of regeneration. Then I quoted acts, where it says repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins, and John when it talks about unless one is born from above with water and the spirit they will not enter the kingdom of Heaven. They explain that away as well and say well what about infants who die without baptism and I say of course they are saved, there are always exceptions. But then they say well baptism isn’t necessary for salvation then.

Its exasperating me and then we talk about non christians being saved as I believe those who through no fault of their own don’t know of Christ can be saved, of course they want Scripture evidence for this and say only those who believe in Christ and hear His word can be saved, we did come to the conclusion that we cannot know for certain what happens to these people and we as Christians need to evangelize. Then of course they have problems, with Mary, purgatory, the saints, that only the Catholic and Orthodox church have the real Eucharist. By the way, they are open to the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist but do not think you have to go to the Catholic Church to receive this, if they believe this in their heart than Christ comes to them as well.

I just get tired of them saying absolutely everything has to be found in Scripture, and I’m not to the point where I can sit and throw Scripture at them and explain everything the Catholic Church teaches, his dad has read some stuff, like On Being Catholic by Thomas Howard, but he still thinks he knows better and no church has it all. Then his dad who was watching EWTN said why would this guy attribute the gift of miracles to St. Joseph rather than God, because he was talking about how Joseph works miracles. Ugh! Help please!
Click to expand...
This is a good resource: scripturecatholic.com/index.html
 
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