Getting exasperated with evangelicals

[COPLAND_3]

Sure, i would love help, what books on the early church fathers do you recommend? I know there is a good 3 volume set, what else though?

And thank the rest of you as well, I will try my best to be patient with them and charitable.

I have the largest collection of the Church Fathers on my site litteralchristianlibrary.wetpaint.com/page/Early+Church+Fathers+Collection The Church Fathers are all in alphabetical order.

One thing about the Church Fathers is they wrote a lot. I would begin with St. Ignatius of Antioch, The Didache, and St, Clement of Rome. But I would do this for the main reason of proving to yourself that the first Christians were Catholic, that is so you can feel confidence that when you make the claim then you will know for yourself that it is true and not because I told you. Within the writings that I have just mentioned is undeniable evidence of Catholic thought and belief, such as Apostolic Succession, Baptism, Repentance, Eucharist, Apostolic Tradition, etc. A resource that is helpful in the fact that it quotes the Church Fathers while defending the Sacraments is from the Catholic answers tracts catholic.com/library/sacraments.asp

But my sugesstion is to begin reading St. Ignatius of Antioch, who was taught and baptized by the Apostles. He wrote some short letters to some churches, it won’t take long. You will notice that he stresses the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and the authority of the bishops.

The Didache was also written in Apostolic times, and again it screams Catholicism. Here is the link newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm

St. Clement of Rome was the 4th Pope, and his letter to the Corithians is a great demonstration of Clement exercising his authority while instructing and admonishing them. He gives an excellent explantion of Apostolic authority in 1 Clement chapter 42.

If you need any assistance then please feel free to ask.

 

[Newbie2]

The problem is that they are chopping up the Bible into verses that suit their belief, when they should be looking at it as a whole.

Ruthie

That’s one of the problems.

The basis of the issue is that someone either accepts Tradition (BigT) or not. Rejecting Tradition leaves one with only scripture, where one is forced to pick and choose scripture to support their doctrine. Since the doctrine is pre-supposed, you will never be able to prove to their satisfaction anything rooted in Tradition, even if clearly supported in Scripture (unless it happens to be a doctrine where Catholics and Fundamentalists agree, like something generic like “Jesus is Lord”.

And since there is no “authority” to interpret scripture for them, they are pretty much free to interpret it as they please.

So, I agree that patience is essential, as well as frequent and firm use of “That’s a point where we will have to agree to disagree”.

 

[Ruthie]

They just say, since the theif was saved baptism is not a requirement.

Again, they are separating this event from all the times that Jesus said baptism was necessary.

As others have said, be charitable. Winning an argument won’t win a soul, as Bishop Sheed said. (My feeble memory can’t remember the exact quote. He put it much better than I did.)

Ask them how they determine the truth about apparently contradictory passages in the Bible, reminding them that it didn’t have chapters and verse numbers until (I think) the 8th or 9th century. Listen to the answer!

Then see if you can use their own method to reconcile the Good Thief with “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” (Mark 16:16 RSV)

Before starting in, say a quick prayer for Mary to intercede for you to keep you charitable! I usually ask her help in that, when I’m editing my posts. I can get pretty… exasperated and exasperating!

God bless us all,

Ruthie

 

[BRB]

You need a Catholic boyfriend. You can’t marry that chap anyways til he comes over to your way of thinking/shared faith.

Tell him as much … and let him work his way thru the CCC with Godspeed.

 

[COPLAND_3]

BRB

That’s uncalled for. Plus there are enough deadbeat Catholics out there that don’t leave much to be desired. At least her boyfriend and family seem to be sincere. Let’s not attack them.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

You need a Catholic boyfriend. You can’t marry that chap anyways til he comes over to your way of thinking/shared faith.

Tell him as much … and let him work his way thru the CCC with Godspeed.

She can absolutely marry this man if the relationship gets to that point. The Church would not forbid her to marry a non-Catholic Christian.

 

[Jon_S]

Its exasperating me and then we talk about non christians being saved as I believe those who through no fault of their own don’t know of Christ can be saved, of course they want Scripture evidence for this and say only those who believe in Christ and hear His word can be saved,

Romans 2:14-16
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Keep up the good fight Kaily!

1 Peter 3:15
but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;

 

[jmcrae]

She can absolutely marry this man if the relationship gets to that point. The Church would not forbid her to marry a non-Catholic Christian.

It’s not recommended, though - we prefer that Catholics marry Catholics, for family harmony and for the spiritual safety of the children.

But I don’t think these two are in a marrying kind of relationship. It seems like just a close friendship.

 

[Kaily]

It’s not recommended, though - we prefer that Catholics marry Catholics, for family harmony and for the spiritual safety of the children.

But I don’t think these two are in a marrying kind of relationship. It seems like just a close friendship.

Actually, we are pretty much planning on getting married. We love each other and he doesn’t have a problem with me taking kids to the Catholic Church, he sees Catholics as Christians, he also does not believe in birth control. And he truly does love Jesus Christ and so does his family. But I don’t want to get into whether or not I should marry him because he’s non-catholic.

 

[Kaily]

OK,

I agree with everyone who said hearts are not converted through argumentation, totally agree, and will continue to try to be the best Catholic Christian I can be.

I have some more questions though, everyone Scripture I quote, my boyfriend has an answer for and they actually say we are not taking Scripture as a whole.

For example:

here is what he said:

"
It’s not talking about water baptism when it talks about being “baptised in Christ.” It’s talking about being saved by Jesus.

1 Peter 3:18-22
18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

19in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,

20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

(Here, it isn’t talking about being baptised at all. It’s talkng about God bringing Noah and his famly safely through the flood, which was a lot of water.)

21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you–not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience–through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

(it specifically says here that it’s not the removal of dirt, aka water baptism, but the appeal to God through Christ’s ressurection)

22who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

I’ll keep saying it, if it’s required to save some, it’s required to save everybody. "
%between%

 

[Kaily]

Again, they are separating this event from all the times that Jesus said baptism was necessary.

As others have said, be charitable. Winning an argument won’t win a soul, as Bishop Sheed said. (My feeble memory can’t remember the exact quote. He put it much better than I did.)

Ask them how they determine the truth about apparently contradictory passages in the Bible, reminding them that it didn’t have chapters and verse numbers until (I think) the 8th or 9th century. Listen to the answer!

Then see if you can use their own method to reconcile the Good Thief with “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” (Mark 16:16 RSV)

Before starting in, say a quick prayer for Mary to intercede for you to keep you charitable! I usually ask her help in that, when I’m editing my posts. I can get pretty… exasperated and exasperating!

God bless us all,

Ruthie

They would say they are taking the Scriptures as a whole and we are not. And to them that proves salvation is through Christ Alone, without any Sacraments involved. How do you respond to salvation is through Christ alone, because I agree salvation is through Christ alone, apart from Him noone can be saved.So how does one reconcile this with baptism as important for salvation, and water baptism.

 

[jmcrae]

Actually, we are pretty much planning on getting married. We love each other and he doesn’t have a problem with me taking kids to the Catholic Church, he sees Catholics as Christians, he also does not believe in birth control. And he truly does love Jesus Christ and so does his family. But I don’t want to get into whether or not I should marry him because he’s non-catholic.

Okay - well - realize that you will be having these arguments every day, in the presence of your children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren, until death ye do part. You say you’re exasperated now; imagine how you will feel when you are eighty or ninety years old, and still having the same arguments, day after day after day after day.

 

[jmcrae]

They would say they are taking the Scriptures as a whole and we are not. And to them that proves salvation is through Christ Alone, without any Sacraments involved. How do you respond to salvation is through Christ alone, because I agree salvation is through Christ alone, apart from Him noone can be saved.So how does one reconcile this with baptism as important for salvation, and water baptism.

Baptism is how we enter into the mystery of Christ. There is no such thing as “accept Jesus into your heart by an act of the imagination” in the Bible or anywhere else. Jesus isn’t our imaginary friend who does whatever we think He is doing. Jesus is a real Person - really God.

Baptism is the method - the means, the machine - that causes us to become members of Christ.

You cannot enter the Church (that is, the Body of Christ) by means of positive thinking.

It can only be done (ordinarily - I know there are extraordinary cases, but I’m talking about normal people, here) by means of the Sacraments of the Church - that’s the very reason that Christ gave them to us, in the first place.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

They would say they are taking the Scriptures as a whole and we are not. And to them that proves salvation is through Christ Alone, without any Sacraments involved. How do you respond to salvation is through Christ alone, because I agree salvation is through Christ alone, apart from Him noone can be saved.So how does one reconcile this with baptism as important for salvation, and water baptism.

It is Jesus who works through Baptism to wash away our sins, and give us the Holy Spirit. All the sacraments are effectual because Christ gave them to us and works through them.

Jesus Himself said baptism was necessary, Mark 16:16.

 

[BRB]

Okay - well - realize that you will be having these arguments every day, in the presence of your children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren, until death ye do part. You say you’re exasperated now; imagine how you will feel when you are eighty or ninety years old, and still having the same arguments, day after day after day after day.

Exactly.

When Paul wrote to the Early Christians about marriage … they were all Catholic. All doctrines were held in common.

M.Luther and others have really churned the milk since that day. The cream needs time to separate itself.

Remember this, your faith is # 1 in this life, before any boyfriend … especially one who comes from a tradition of Protest.

If you put him #1, and faith second … you are asking for trouble.

Remember this … a boy generally listens to his mother, before his wife.

 

[The_Barbarian]

I’ve been married to a non-Catholic for nearly 40 years. We never fought over religion; I respected hers, and she respected mine. The children were raised as Catholics, but we also attended her church sometimes, and they understood that denomination (Episcopalian) was also Christian.

It has never been a problem. We agreed that we loved each other enough that we would do whatever it took to make it work.

And it worked. Prayer and Christian charity are strongly recommended.

 

[crenfro]

We never fought over religion; I respected hers, and she respected mine. The children were raised as Catholics, but we also attended her church sometimes

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I think if the dad is Catholic, the children are much more likely to follow in the faith than if it’s the other way around -->if the mom is Catholic and the dad is of another religion.

Anyway, from what I understand, don’t spouses bring each other towards God, towards salvation, if they’re truly practicing marriage in the way it’s meant to be?

I think when a person stays steadfast in their faith, uses a good example as their sermon, that has the strongest effect.

So, having digressed instead of addressing the topic, I guess what might help is the question, do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? and, what’s your faith worth it to you? and anyway, it’s good to ask these sorts of things before getting further entrenched in an important relationship.

I don’t know really what to say. Just thought I’d share some random thoughts. Thanks for listening.

 

[moondweller]

Actually, we are pretty much planning on getting married. We love each other and he doesn’t have a problem with me taking kids to the Catholic Church, he sees Catholics as Christians, he also does not believe in birth control. And he truly does love Jesus Christ and so does his family. But I don’t want to get into whether or not I should marry him because he’s non-catholic.

Well, sweetheart, if you think it’s exasperating now, wait till you get into the bonds of marriage and you become part of his family. And children will make it even more complex.

The far more important question really is whether or not you should marry him. That should be his question too.

 

[jmcrae]

I’ve been married to a non-Catholic for nearly 40 years. We never fought over religion; I respected hers, and she respected mine. The children were raised as Catholics, but we also attended her church sometimes, and they understood that denomination (Episcopalian) was also Christian.

I think there is a huge difference between Episcopalians and non-denominational fundamentalists. Episcopalians already think of themselves as Catholic, so they don’t feel the need to “convert” Catholics to their religion, whereas non-denominational fundamentalists think that Catholicism is next door to Hell itself, and will try to do everything in their power to get you out. (They treat Episcopalians and Lutherans in much the same way.)

 

[StJude]

Hello everyone, I rarely post but felt the need to do so. I know we are getting off topic but for what it’s worth please pray a lot and ask for God’s will before you enter into a marriage with this person. My husband is non-denominational and he promised to baptize our children before we got married. Although he is a gift from God and I did a lot of discernment before we got married, I would never recommend getting married with someone in another faith. I never imagined this would happen but it’s not a happy road. I live in constant fear, sadness and emptiness for not being able to live my faith to the fullest. When children come to the picture everything changes and non-denominationals believe strongly that the husband has the final decision on the spiritual direction of the family. My greatest desire is for my family to be Catholic, to grow in love and knowledge of the Church, to go to mass together, to adore our Living Lord in the Eucharist, to participate in ministry to build up God’s Church, to live an authentic Catholic faith and be a light to the world. None of that is possible when those values are not shared. When life happens and you find yourself in your daily life with your children, compromises need to be made in order to just keep the marriage together. One of two things happen, you either give up your faith because non-denominational Christianity is easy, fun and offers a lot of fellowship and support. Or you end up having to live your Catholic faith to a minimum. Only attending mass by yourself on Sundays…Please pray and ask for God’s will in your life.

Regarding the topic at hand. All I can say is learn your faith as much as possible. Study scripture, early fathers and the Catechism. Be prepared to asnwer questions in charity.

May God bless you in your journey and keep you safe.