Getting Married Young

[Michael_Saint]

Sometimes the voice of reason can’t drown out the whisper of God. Thank God!

False dichotomy. “Reason” is a gift from God. If it is operating effectively it can NEVER be at odds with the “whisper of God”.

What if reason does NOT operate effectively? Well, what if the heart doesn’t operate effectively? Same problem. Both head and heart must work together - but the heart must in the end submit to the head (well-formed). That is Catholic Theology.

But how often do we think the movements of our heart are the “whisper of God” while our good God-given common sense are not? Yes, the heart can (and often does) get out of control.

 

[bookgirl32]

Just because a parent “works hard” and puts millions in the bank account, that doesn’t mean that parent should give their children everything under the sun.

It is important for every child - no matter how rich their parents are - to learn responsibility and to work and earn some things in life. Would you honestly disagree?

Who said anything about their parents giving them everything? Who said, “My parents gave me everything, and never once did anything to make me learn responsibility.” Who said their parents made millions?

Did God not say, to us, His children, that if He takes care of the flowers in the fields the way He does, that He will take care of us even better?

 

[bookgirl32]

My belief? God wants more people to devote more of their single years to his service, and we are too selfish and cannot exercise the proper self-control to do it. Does God call some to marriage at 21 or 22? No doubt about it. Does God call a lot of people to spend more devoting their time and energy in His service in single life, but who end up marrying young instead because their desires override His will? I think this is far more common.

Really, can you show me evidence of that? How many priests, who are following a vocation, should wait and spend more of their “single years” devoted to His service? Does marriage, a vocation in and of itself, stop people from serving Him?

 

[bookgirl32]

I think it’s great your mom helps out - my mom did the same. But though it is good that they chip in, they shouldn’t pay the whole she-bang, and they shouldn’t lavish a bunch of other stuff on you, like free rent, a new car, etc. Balance is key - pay a portion, but force your children to work to pay the rest.

I think that’s what everyone is saying here. You’re putting other words in their mouth.

 

[bookgirl32]

False dichotomy. “Reason” is a gift from God. If it is operating effectively it can NEVER be at odds with the “whisper of God”.

What if reason does NOT operate effectively? Well, what if the heart doesn’t operate effectively? Same problem. Both head and heart must work together - but the heart must in the end submit to the head (well-formed). That is Catholic Theology.

 

[Michael_Saint]

I think that’s what everyone is saying here. You’re putting other words in their mouth.

Okay, let me clarify. “. . . neither should they pay every cent and penny of your entire four years tuition”. That’s not putting words in your mouth - you said yourself you had the whole thing paid for.

 

[Michael_Saint]

Really, can you show me evidence of that? How many priests, who are following a vocation, should wait and spend more of their “single years” devoted to His service? Does marriage, a vocation in and of itself, stop people from serving Him?

Read Jason Evert - chastity link on the Catholic Answers webpage.

Priests do serve as single people a long time - even the youngest priests don’t get ordained until they are 25.

This is my point - far too many people are getting married before they even know who they are, and far too many of them are getting married to people who are not leading them closer to God (non-Catholics or lapsed Catholics). The Baltimore Catechism, St. Joseph’s edition, says that if God does not provide you with a good Catholic partner, it is a sign you are called to remain single (until such time as God provides you with that partner). That’s straight from the Baltimore Catechism, so don’t knock it. And as far as marrying non-Catholics or “bad Catholics” (the term it uses), it says that God specifically does not will this, and that the person would find life more difficult, and may even lose her / his soul. Read it for yourself - St. Joseph’s Baltimore Catechism #2.

I challenge you to find me a single Father or Doctor of the Church or Saint that would say God ever wills a mixed marriage and has that as his number one plan for a soul. Won’t find it.

Marriage CAN stop people from serving AS WELL as possible. People who marry young, without first embracing their singleness as a GIFT and be WILLING to accept this as a permanent state IF GOD SO CALLED THEM to it would be marrying prematurely. Their standards are lower, they make poorer choices based too much on desperation and impatience. Please read Jason Evert some more.

 

[bookgirl32]

Okay, let me clarify. “. . . neither should they pay every cent and penny of your entire four years tuition”. That’s not putting words in your mouth - you said yourself you had the whole thing paid for.

I did?

 

[bookgirl32]

Read Jason Evert - chastity link on the Catholic Answers webpage.

Priests do serve as single people a long time - even the youngest priests don’t get ordained until they are 25.

This is my point - far too many people are getting married before they even know who they are, and far too many of them are getting married to people who are not leading them closer to God (non-Catholics or lapsed Catholics). The Baltimore Catechism, St. Joseph’s edition, says that if God does not provide you with a good Catholic partner, it is a sign you are called to remain single (until such time as God provides you with that partner). That’s straight from the Baltimore Catechism, so don’t knock it. And as far as marrying non-Catholics or “bad Catholics” (the term it uses), it says that God specifically does not will this, and that the person would find life more difficult, and may even lose her / his soul. Read it for yourself - St. Joseph’s Baltimore Catechism #2

Michael, you’re shooting yourself in the foot here. Some of the things you’re saying are firmly grounded in truth, but your judgemental tone of voice, coupled with some outrageous statements taken out of context, are far overshadowing anything of value that you are saying. Maybe some people could learn some self control, some self denial, etc. Maybe some people could learn a little charity.

I challenge you to find me a single Father or Doctor of the Church or Saint that would say God ever wills a mixed marriage and has that as his number one plan for a soul. Won’t find it.

Marriage CAN stop people from serving AS WELL as possible. People who marry young, without first embracing their singleness as a GIFT and be WILLING to accept this as a permanent state IF GOD SO CALLED THEM to it would be marrying prematurely. Their standards are lower, they make poorer choices based too much on desperation and impatience. Please read Jason Evert some more.

There is a lot of truth to your words. I married at 29, and am glad of it. That is NOT to say that someone who marries at 22 is not called by God to marry. That is also not to say that someone who married at 35 WAS called by God to marry.

Messages of chastity have to do with the single life AND marriage. Chastity serves not only single people, it serves married people, and both are called to it. Age has NOTHING to do with chastity.

You’re making these blanket statements and in the process drowning out what truth you’re speaking. Just calm down.

And how old was Mary when she married Joseph?

How old was Saint Teresa when she became a nun?

There is a reason engaged couples get counceled by the Church before marriage, trust the Church.

 

[Michael_Saint]

Michael Saint;3577375:

False dichotomy. “Reason” is a gift from God. If it is operating effectively it can NEVER be at odds with the “whisper of God”.

Actually, my studies of Ignatius with my spiritual advisor, say differently many times. The heart, meaning God’s message, must in the end, through discernment, rule human thought.

As does the head think it’s smarter than God Himself sometimes. Discernment is complete openness and prayer to what God’s saying to you, and it may come through emotion, it may come through reason, it may come however God wants it.

You are looking at all this far too simplistically. Myself, I am writing a 15 page paper on Ignatian spirituality for my Christian Spirituality class with Dr. Miravalle. But I won’t be incorporating any of your post into it.

As Dr. Hahn said in one of his lectures in the Theological Foundations class I took with him, the head and the heart are supposed to feed back and forth. Therefore, it is impossible for one to discern “with the heart alone”. Every movement of the heart is at that very moment tied to and submissive to the intellect. For instance, I might have it on my “heart” to be a priest. But the only reason my heart has allowed me to experience this desire is because I have an intellectual understanding of the priesthood - I know something about it, I have seen other priests and have a mental impression or understanding of it.

Interpreting “the heart” as meaning “God’s message” is an error. I guess you would have to define “heart”.

I am not denying the dangers of unchecked intellect. Just as the Trinity is one, so Von Hildebrand - Pius XII’s favourite Catholic philosopher - says that “The heart often usurps the role of the intellect or will. In truth, the intellect, the will, and the heart should cooperate, but each must respect the specific role and domain of the other … When the heart exceeds its own domain and usurps roles it was never destined to play, it discredits avffectivity” (The Heart, 88).

“Complete opennessand prayer to what God is saying to you”, may indeed come in the form of “pure emotion”. But:
a) a heart implies that a head is also present (every man has both), and
b) it is far too frequent that we take “pure emotion” to be the will of God when it is nothing of the sort.
After all, Luther’s “sola fide” and ensuing revolt from the Church was an emotional reaction to his scrupulosity and his hostility towards the Church. Not God’s will.

 

[Michael_Saint]

Michael, you’re shooting yourself in the foot here. Some of the things you’re saying are firmly grounded in truth, but your judgemental tone of voice, coupled with some outrageous statements taken out of context, are far overshadowing anything of value that you are saying. Maybe some people could learn some self control, some self denial, etc. Maybe some people could learn a little charity.

There is a lot of truth to your words. I married at 29, and am glad of it. That is NOT to say that someone who marries at 22 is not called by God to marry. That is also not to say that someone who married at 35 WAS called by God to marry.

Messages of chastity have to do with the single life AND marriage. Chastity serves not only single people, it serves married people, and both are called to it. Age has NOTHING to do with chastity.

You’re making these blanket statements and in the process drowning out what truth you’re speaking. Just calm down.

And how old was Mary when she married Joseph?

How old was Saint Teresa when she became a nun?

There is a reason engaged couples get counceled by the Church before marriage, trust the Church.

Read Matthew 23 and tell me if Jesus was being “charitable” - according to your particular definition or “standard” of charity.

I never said some people AREN’T called to marry at 22. I have a good friend who is 22, her fiance is 21, and I am fully supportive and believe God willed it for sure. I never said everyone who marries at 35 IS called to marriage. I know a girl who is 31 and is getting married to this guy and I think she is making the biggest mistake of her life.

“Messages of chastity” is not the only thing Jason Evert talks about. He also talks about patiently waiting on God to provide a spouse. He tells the story about how he was almost engaged 3 times in his life, but the timing was not right (student, big debts, years from being able to have children, etc.), and God providentially broke up the relationships. He ended up meeting “Miss Right” after he graduated from Steubenville, in a way that was clearly providential to the both of them. I KNOW what chastity is, I know it applies to married people as well as single people - goodness, do you think I’m that ignorant?

Engaged people get counseled by the Church, but then again, how many annulments are granted these days? Demonstrates a lack of good counseling, if you ask me. “Trust the Church” - indeed I do, but some baptisms are still invalid, some Masses are still illicit, etc. Believe me, the Church still lets people who should never get married still marry in the Church - because they actually want them to come back twice a year (Xmas and Easter), and to send their kids to the Catholic schools.

 

[bookgirl32]

bookgirl32;3579223:

You are looking at all this far too simplistically. Myself, I am writing a 15 page paper on Ignatian spirituality for my Christian Spirituality class with Dr. Miravalle. But I won’t be incorporating any of your post into it.

As Dr. Hahn said in one of his lectures in the Theological Foundations class I took with him, the head and the heart are supposed to feed back and forth. Therefore, it is impossible for one to discern “with the heart alone”. Every movement of the heart is at that very moment tied to and submissive to the intellect. For instance, I might have it on my “heart” to be a priest. But the only reason my heart has allowed me to experience this desire is because I have an intellectual understanding of the priesthood - I know something about it, I have seen other priests and have a mental impression or understanding of it.

Interpreting “the heart” as meaning “God’s message” is an error. I guess you would have to define “heart”.

I am not denying the dangers of unchecked intellect. Just as the Trinity is one, so Von Hildebrand - Pius XII’s favourite Catholic philosopher - says that “The heart often usurps the role of the intellect or will. In truth, the intellect, the will, and the heart should cooperate, but each must respect the specific role and domain of the other … When the heart exceeds its own domain and usurps roles it was never destined to play, it discredits avffectivity” (The Heart, 88).

“Complete opennessand prayer to what God is saying to you”, may indeed come in the form of “pure emotion”. But:
a) a heart implies that a head is also present (every man has both), and
b) it is far too frequent that we take “pure emotion” to be the will of God when it is nothing of the sort.
After all, Luther’s “sola fide” and ensuing revolt from the Church was an emotional reaction to his scrupulosity and his hostility towards the Church. Not God’s will.

Okay, that’s what I’m talking about. Nice post. My point is the accusatory and self-righteous tones of your previous posts just made me want to argue with you, and completely ignore that you have a lot of truth to offer. This post, on the other hand, is calm and lacks any inflammatory language, and I really enjoyed it, so thanks.

 

[bookgirl32]

Read Matthew 23 and tell me if Jesus was being “charitable” - according to your particular definition or “standard” of charity.

Here’s the thing, you’re not Jesus. He has a right to be judgemental, you do not.

I never said some people AREN’T called to marry at 22. I have a good friend who is 22, her fiance is 21, and I am fully supportive and believe God willed it for sure. I never said everyone who marries at 35 IS called to marriage. I know a girl who is 31 and is getting married to this guy and I think she is making the biggest mistake of her life.

Okay, so we agree. You were making yourself sound like you thought anyone who gets married before the age of 25 was nuts.

“Messages of chastity” is not the only thing Jason Evert talks about. He also talks about patiently waiting on God to provide a spouse. He tells the story about how he was almost engaged 3 times in his life, but the timing was not right (student, big debts, years from being able to have children, etc.), and God providentially broke up the relationships. He ended up meeting “Miss Right” after he graduated from Steubenville, in a way that was clearly providential to the both of them. I KNOW what chastity is, I know it applies to married people as well as single people - goodness, do you think I’m that ignorant?

No, I don’t, which is why I’m trying to encourage you not to sound like you are. You’re preaching to the choir here, in the post above. I’m NOT arguing with you, okay?

Engaged people get counseled by the Church, but then again, how many annulments are granted these days? Demonstrates a lack of good counseling, if you ask me. “Trust the Church” - indeed I do, but some baptisms are still invalid, some Masses are still illicit, etc. Believe me, the Church still lets people who should never get married still marry in the Church - because they actually want them to come back twice a year (Xmas and Easter), and to send their kids to the Catholic schools.

So you know more than the Church about all of these situations now huh? By “trust the Church” I did not mean blindly accept all that is done by infallible people, but trust that God’s doing what he promised through the Church.

 

[Michael_Saint]

Michael Saint;3580590:

Okay, that’s what I’m talking about. Nice post. My point is the accusatory and self-righteous tones of your previous posts just made me want to argue with you, and completely ignore that you have a lot of truth to offer. This post, on the other hand, is calm and lacks any inflammatory language, and I really enjoyed it, so thanks.

Okay, you are right about this.

I get passionate (too passionate sometimes) about - well, lots of things. Church teaching, Sports (had a heated argument lately about someone who was bragging up the New York Yankees), the Arts, etc. Sometimes I get a little too “high strung” about issues and say things in ways that make people “dig their heels in” and resist what I have to say.

Yes, “accusatory” and “self-righteous” are probably accurate labels. Better to use “honey” than “vinegar”.

I will try to do better in the future. Thanks for pointing this out, bookgirl32. I am always trying to improve.

 

[bookgirl32]

bookgirl32;3580631:

Okay, you are right about this.

I get passionate (too passionate sometimes) about - well, lots of things. Church teaching, Sports (had a heated argument lately about someone who was bragging up the New York Yankees), the Arts, etc. Sometimes I get a little too “high strung” about issues and say things in ways that make people “dig their heels in” and resist what I have to say.

Yes, “accusatory” and “self-righteous” are probably accurate labels. Better to use “honey” than “vinegar”.

I will try to do better in the future. Thanks for pointing this out, bookgirl32. I am always trying to improve.

Me too.

 

[Rach620]

I think it’s great your mom helps out - my mom did the same. But though it is good that they chip in, they shouldn’t pay the whole she-bang, and they shouldn’t lavish a bunch of other stuff on you, like free rent, a new car, etc. Balance is key - pay a portion, but force your children to work to pay the rest.

This is your opinion–just that, an opinion. It is not the end-all be-all of parenting advice, nor does it address every situation in which families–and college students today–find themselves. I really think it is up to my parents alone to judge whether and how they will finance their children’s college educations, and, in the end, whether it was money well spent.

 

[Rach620]

My belief? God wants more people to devote more of their single years to his service, and we are too selfish and cannot exercise the proper self-control to do it. Does God call some to marriage at 21 or 22? No doubt about it. Does God call a lot of people to spend more devoting their time and energy in His service in single life, but who end up marrying young instead because their desires override His will? I think this is far more common.

This is again your own personal belief, and does not suffice as sound vocational advice for every other person. It is not your place to judge other people’s process of discernment.

You seem to have a flawed understanding of the vocation of marriage, Michael Saint. It is not as if we spend our single years truly dedicated to his service, and then sort of give it up to get married and have a family (or, it seems to you, legitimate our own passions).

All of our life should be service, and not a few are called to serve God as husbands and wives, mothers and fathers. There is nothing wrong with this in comparison to other forms of service, it is just their particular vocation. They serve the entire Church by building up the stable foundation of the Christian family. What more could you ask for?

 

[hasikelee]

Ouch! Personal insult - but I’m not really concerned about that one. I guess I dish it out so I should be able to take it.

“35 and half-dead”. Hmmm, funny thing - that is the EXACT age that the Little Flower’s father was when he got married! Yep, a man on his way to beatification, who loved life, loved God, and had a fruitful marriage with four girls he gave away to religious life - one of them among the top 100 saints of all time, and one more who is on her way to beatification too.

And St. Gianna Molla was 33 when she married, and her husband, I believe, was in his 40s. “waiting until we’re 35 and half-dead”, hey? Wow, slamming the Saints! Not a wise idea.

My belief? God wants more people to devote more of their single years to his service, and we are too selfish and cannot exercise the proper self-control to do it. Does God call some to marriage at 21 or 22? No doubt about it. Does God call a lot of people to spend more devoting their time and energy in His service in single life, but who end up marrying young instead because their desires override His will? I think this is far more common.

Abraham waited until he was 99 to give birth to Isaac. How “blessed” was he? Actually, Hebrews 11:12 uses the same word for Abraham when it talked about the birth of Isaac - that Abraham was “half-dead”. Except - the author of the Hebrews uses this as a COMPLIMENT.

So thanks for the compliment, Zahmir. I will be “35 and half dead” when I get married - sort of in imitation of our father in faith, Abraham.

Richard McBrien and his fellow theologians were never that strong on Scripture - your post is proof of this.

Michael, get out and see the world. I checked in at the local crisis center where I volunteer and excepting the young highschool/college students, all the volunteers are married. I took a mental count of all the people who protest at the local abortion clinic and again, excepting the young’uns who are yet to choose a vocation, everyone is married. (Oh, and excepting the volunteer priests.)

If you think examples of people in the past are a good way to make your argument, what in the world do you have to say about Mary?

Do you believe marriage is a hindrance to sacrifice and service? That is definitely a red flag, I hope you aren’t dating!

 

[Bataar]

If you are a good Catholic girl, and you get an education thinking, “well, what if my husband leaves me or we get a divorce”, I would say that girl has to give her head a shake and make darn sure she marries the right guy.

This goes for both men and women. Until we learn to time travel into the future, there’s no way to know if we’re marrying the right person.

 

[Michael_Saint]

This is your opinion–just that, an opinion. It is not the end-all be-all of parenting advice, nor does it address every situation in which families–and college students today–find themselves. I really think it is up to my parents alone to judge whether and how they will finance their children’s college educations, and, in the end, whether it was money well spent.

It’s not up to your parents - but your parents and God. Parents have a God-given responsibility to raise their children according to certain standards.

I have seen too many people who have their entire college educations paid for, and they are not as mature, and are somewhat spoiled.

Yes, I agree that there are exceptions to every rule. I know you’ll come back with that one. But there are “rules” and there are “exceptions”. Don’t make the exception out to be the rule because you want to prove Michael wrong.