Getting men back to Mass

[Elizabeth502]

The priest must lead the parish. It starts with him. It’s not really the fault of the men, or the fault of the women. Father has got to order the house, or the disorder of the human condition will reign in the parish, not the spirit of Christ!

Go for it.

And when a priest does “Go for it” (there’s especially one parish I’m thinking of where this is true), when he exercises his authority without apology or ‘waiting for permission,’ the very goal you mention is realized: there is order in the parish, an order that many of us have not seen in eons. The petty ‘power politics’ vanish, because the center of authority has shifted back to where it belongs. Both men and women are happy, Mass is full, and you even see men of various ages at daily weekday Masses

The level of lay participation is determined by the pastor. There is no “entitlement” to any kind of “lay ministry,” let alone lay “power.” Doesn’t matter how customary it is, at any particular parish. Lay people serve the parish at the pleasure of the pastor, not the other way around. It is his to allow, deny, encourage, or decline, based on the needs of the parish as he, not lay people, determine.

 

[Sarabande]

Out of context, it could be seen that way, but when a parent reports that an otherwise fervent 17-year-old has to drag himself to Mass, it confirms the reality of the way the male psyche responds, and to what he best responds. It’s not about pleasing men or satisfying certain “terms” or requirements, as a condition of their attendance. It’s a logical dynamic:

Catholic men, like Catholic women, should go to Mass out of burning desire to do so.
The style of Masses, dynamics of parish governance, and absence of visible male energy in many parishes discourages male participation, which radically reduces male identification with the whole event.
It is difficult to ask any segment to continue a fervent commitment to Mass when so many points of identification are missing.

Josh and Mark, you may be different, and you also may be able to override more easily what other men cannot, or you may be blessed with a more virile parish, shall we say. This discussion reminds me of the Altar Girl threads where this very topic of visual & concrete reference points (as well as group identification) came up. Anyone who has taught boys for any length of time has the opportunity to observe what they do and don’t respond to. This thread is not about what whether men should steel themselves against an impulse, or overcome their internal apathy, but how to “get men back to Mass.” That’s the question Father is asking.

He’s talking about practical realities, that’s all.

And let me just say from a woman’s point of view that the discussion of what appeals to men little and what appeals to them more (at Mass, and in parishes) is also true for me. There’s something weird about parishes dominated by women and by a female “message,” where the priest seems to play a subordinate role, and Masses where men are virtually absent – which is unfortunately too many of them. I get much more out of Mass and out of a parish when those factors that also appeal to men are abundant.

Great post!!

About your comment about teaching boys and knowing what they respond to is so true. When I taught music in a classroom setting, you really had to do things differently for the boys, especially the older ones in 7th and 8th grades. I noticed a HUGE difference when the principal originally wanted the older classes to be segregated by boys and girls. The boys were really engaged and participated more. They were also more open to music, in general. The girls were the same in both segregated and mixed gender classes, but it was more of a challenge to get the boys to participate when the girls were there. There were obviously a number of factors… hormones being one of them, but I do think the boys were more open to engaging when girls weren’t around. That’s not to say that we should keep all females out of the liturgy. Boys need to learn to work with the girls, but I do think there should be a balance. Women may need to encourage their sons and husbands more not to take the back seat even when they and other women are doing the work. Sometimes women are picking up after them because no one else is doing it and I do think that women*** tend*** to have an easier time to multi-task and handle numerous responsibilities, as well as just pick up after everyone without really thinking about it… their kids, their spouses, etc. It doesn’t make women better than men. It’s just a strength that many women have. Men have their strengths as well, which should be praised and recognized… something I don’t think happens often, which may make men feel emasculated.

Although I do think that people should always try to take responsibility for their own lives, you do have to look at the reasons why people are acting and reacting a certain way. You can’t “fix” things without identifying the underlying problems and reasons.

Father’s point of a strong leader… the priest, is extremely important. He is the one ultimately responsible for his flock and what is going on in his house.

 

[MorEphrem]

I think one social impediment to men attending church is the fact that our hypermasculinized society would suggest it’s feminine to be religious. This is a hard thing to respond to since you can’t really catechize this problem away and it can only be done away with by either a strong personal belief that religion is not feminine or familial support to go to mass.

Anyway, the second largest turn-off I would say (although I don’t experience this in Eastern parishes, I’ll assume for my experience with NO parishes) is simply the clustering women seem to do. I don’t mean to offend any ladies but they take over all the lay roles (EMs, altar servers, the choir, lectoring, religious ed, even ushers) so it leaves no niche for men. People who are involved in the liturgy will obviously feel compelled to attend and by being displaced from all the assisting roles men don’t want to attend; even worse, the fact that all the positions are assumed by women really stifles vocations as well. I’m sure some people will mark me as misogynistic but it’s simply the truth that women have a tendency to cluster which results in men just avoiding the situation (I have witnessed it many times in parishes with altar servers - once there gets to be a lot of girls, boys are more reluctant to serve [seriously]).

 

[jmcrae]

I do. At least in my parish. Beginning with the title “captain.” Just out of curiosity, how did the Church get by in years past without lay “captains?”

By having no lay people except for the Altar servers, and paying the Altar servers a stipend for every Mass they served (thus ensuring no need for substitutes) and by having enough priests and religious to staff the office and the parish schools without the need for paid staff or volunteers.

 

[zab]

Why don’t the men and boys volunteer? Are the women fighting them off with sticks?

This excuse is just that–an excuse. I don’t buy the explanation that “politics” bars men from serving in parish leadership roles.

I still suspect it has to do with money issues (men can’t afford to work in low-paying positions).

But if men refuse to step up and take the positions that are volunteer positions or low-paying (perhaps they can work them as part-time jobs as many women do–there are a lot of women who work a job, and then come home and work a second job caring for their home and family), then men really have no right to complain about missing “male energy.” The energy is missing because the men aren’t there.

And here’s another suggestion for men who believe their parish has been hijacked by women–men, step up and give larger tithes and offerings and designate those monies to be used specifically for increasing the salaries of the various paid leadership positions in your parish . Then more men should be able to accept these positions because they will be able to earn enough money to support their families.

Men, I’m a woman, and this discussion tangent sounds like male whining to me. If women have taken over, then men need to step up and do whatever needs to be done. It’s been my personal experience in all walks of life–home, school, on-the-job, politics, community, and church–that the reason women take over is that men have dropped out and refuse to do the work, and SOMEONE has to do it! Think about that.

But again, in support of men, I honestly think that most men don’t volunteer for church leadership roles because they are already working long, hard hours to earn enough money to support their families, and they don’t accept the paid positions in their parish because the salaries are too low.

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http://forums.catholic-questions.org/image.php?u=2777&type=sigpic&dateline=1222404251

I love your signature!
I happen to agree with you that parish jobs do not normally pay enough for a male bread winner to provide for his family. That was a good point. However, I will say that there are males who can fill some of these jobs due to their particular situations and the salary of the position that they hold. Some may be single, some may have wives that work and have no children. Some may have fallen on bad times and are willing to downsize. My husband retired from the military so his payment from the parish together with his retirement pay gave us the same monthly income as before he retired. He works In maintainance.

This discussion is not supposed to be an attack on the many good women who serve their parish. Sadly it sometimes sounds like that. As several of us have pointed out, it really falls on the pastor to lead his parish and to draw from the gifts and talents of both men and women.

 

[Sarabande]

I think one social impediment to men attending church is the fact that our hypermasculinized society would suggest it’s feminine to be religious. This is a hard thing to respond to since you can’t really catechize this problem away and it can only be done away with by either a strong personal belief that religion is not feminine or familial support to go to mass.

That’s a good point. Society also stresses that organized religion is for unintelligent, dim-witted individuals who can’t think for themselves, who can’t stand up on their own. It’s for “weaker” individuals. Men are supposed to be “strong”, so religion doesn’t fit into that idea.

Anyway, the second largest turn-off I would say (although I don’t experience this in Eastern parishes, I’ll assume for my experience with NO parishes) is simply the clustering women seem to do. I don’t mean to offend any ladies but they take over all the lay roles (EMs, altar servers, the choir, lectoring, religious ed, even ushers) so it leaves no niche for men. People who are involved in the liturgy will obviously feel compelled to attend and by being displaced from all the assisting roles men don’t want to attend; even worse, the fact that all the positions are assumed by women really stifles vocations as well. I’m sure some people will mark me as misogynistic but it’s simply the truth that women have a tendency to cluster which results in men just avoiding the situation (I have witnessed it many times in parishes with altar servers - once there gets to be a lot of girls, boys are more reluctant to serve [seriously]).

I can only speak for the choir part of this. Even in the secular world, men tend to be interested in singing less than women. For instance, some secular choirs will pay to have more men join them because it’s almost always lop-sided with women. On top of that, often times, many of the men who sing the choirs I’ve been a part of are homosexuals. So, it could be possible that men view choral singing as “effeminate”.

I brought this up in another thread, but will repeat here because I think this might have been a common practice in the earlier-mid part of the 20th century and could help us understand more about why males have not been as “active” at mass. A gentleman I know who is in his 70s told me that when he was in grade school back in the 1940s, the boys were not allowed to sing in the choir. So the children’s choir was only made up of girls. The boys could only be altar servers. He said that even in his home and other people’s homes, only the girls were given piano lessons. It was not “appropriate” to give boys music lessons. I don’t know if this was a cultural thing, but it seems from what he told me, it was a prevailing practice during his time among many of the parishes in the area.

When a child is raised to believe that choral singing and music lessons is “only for the girls”, I can see how females can appear to “take over” a certain ministry. These boys grow up to be men, who have children of their own and then this misconception is also taught to them. Of course, this is not the case today. Most places are not telling boys they cannot sing in the choirs or telling them that they are not allowed to take music lessons because of their gender. But I do think that there may still be an underlying belief ingrained in our pysche.

 

[jmcrae]

Watch this.

I agree, us dudes need to step our game up, but you have to understand the huge amount of resistance we receive from certain females once we attempt to relieve them of their “duties”. When a male is confronted with such a female, we tend to relent by nature; its biology.
To avoid such confrontation I believe we need both priests who actively seek males to fulfil these roles rather than women (call it discrimination, I don’t care), or women who would be more than happy to allow a man to replace her.

Or, look for the open positions and take those instead of “ousting” the hard-working women.

RCIA, for example, always needs more men as Catechists and sponsors, along with the women.

 

[SHoJ]

Personally, I blame Hitler.

Think about it. Even since WWII especially, women have gotten a taste of what it’s like to do something other than be a wife and mother, or a nurse or secretary. Women realized that their gifts, talents and skills can be applied to much more than keeping a home and raising children, and they enjoyed facing challenges other than “what’s for dinner” and “where’s my soccer uniform?”. Eventually, society changed, as did women’s roles within society. Women now hold positions of power and influence in all aspects of society, and it’s natural that this would eventually carry over into the church. That’s probably why you hear more and more women nowadays saying that the Church should allow women top be deacons and/or priests, because many are just as capable of the intellectual and spiritual requirements as men - except for the fact that they were born the “wrong” gender. We all know that the Church will not change it’s position on women filling these roles, and by telling women and girls they should step down from any sort of position of service on the altar comes across as misogynistic and is a slap in the face to those women who have put in long, hard hours to keep the parishes running during these years that we’ve had a decline in the number of priests. It will be as popular as telling Rosie the Riveter to go home so the men could go back to work.

 

[SHoJ]

From my perspective, it comes down to “Who is Jesus Christ”? He’s a strong, virile presence. That needs to be reflected in His liturgy and in all aspects of parish life. It’s really just that simple.

Men and women both have roles: masculinity and femininity should both be embraced in God’s plan. But if we turn Christ’s liturgy into something that is not virile and strong, then we’ve missed the boat, and both sexes sense that!

The priest must lead the parish. It starts with him. It’s not really the fault of the men, or the fault of the women. Father has got to order the house, or the disorder of the human condition will reign in the parish, not the spirit of Christ!

I’m sorry, but this whole thread comes across as pretty misogynistic. I mean, what exactly do you see as women’s role in the parish??? Is it, as some suggest, for them to be the parish secretary, clean the parish, take care of the altar linens, decorate the church (as long as it isn’t too feminine), mind the children, and stay in the pews and just pray instead of being “involved” with the liturgy? It seems like you (and some others in this thread) believe that no female should ever serve at the altar in any capacity (reader, EMHC, altar server).

I’ve heard it said that to be Catholic is to be “counter cultural”. Maybe once you are the pastor of your own parish, and putting your house in order, you can use this as an excuse for getting rid of anything you feel causes the liturgy and/or parish life to become feminized. Speak to the men of your parish, both in your homilies and face-to-face, and ask them to step up and help you build a parish that is counter cultural and reflects the “strong, virile presence” of Christ. Let the people of your parish know that it’s your parish and that from now on you will be the only one distributing the Body of Christ, and that there will be only two men distributing the Precious Blood (if you decide to allow the parishioners to partake of the Precious Blood at all), one of whom is a sacristan/instituted acolyte who can act as your “captain” and help you prepare for and clean up after Mass, make sure the lectors and altar boys are all present and accounted for, and find suitable replacements as needed.

 

[FrStevenJones]

I’m sorry, but this whole thread comes across as pretty misogynistic. I mean, what exactly do you see as women’s role in the parish??? Is it, as some suggest, for them to be the parish secretary, clean the parish, take care of the altar linens, decorate the church (as long as it isn’t too feminine), mind the children, and stay in the pews and just pray instead of being “involved” with the liturgy? It seems like you (and some others in this thread) believe that no female should ever serve at the altar in any capacity (reader, EMHC, altar server).

I’ve heard it said that to be Catholic is to be “counter cultural”. Maybe once you are the pastor of your own parish, and putting your house in order, you can use this as an excuse for getting rid of anything you feel causes the liturgy and/or parish life to become feminized. Speak to the men of your parish, both in your homilies and face-to-face, and ask them to step up and help you build a parish that is counter cultural and reflects the “strong, virile presence” of Christ. Let the people of your parish know that it’s your parish and that from now on you will be the only one distributing the Body of Christ, and that there will be only two men distributing the Precious Blood (if you decide to allow the parishioners to partake of the Precious Blood at all), one of whom is a sacristan/instituted acolyte who can act as your “captain” and help you prepare for and clean up after Mass, make sure the lectors and altar boys are all present and accounted for, and find suitable replacements as needed.

I will be praying for you tonight. I don’t buy into any of this bitterness and sarcasm. This thread is about “getting men back to Mass.” If you wish to contribute, I insist that you be polite. Sarcasm and putting words in my mouth are not welcome. But, you will be in my prayers, especially tonight.

 

[TerryJT]

Or, look for the open positions and take those instead of “ousting” the hard-working women.

RCIA, for example, always needs more men as Catechists and sponsors, along with the women.

Bingo-Right now we have 6-8 positions open, some of them on the weekends…not one man has stepped up to the plate. To you guys that are “blaming Eve” for the lack of male participation in the church…I would say you need to get a new excuse. That one is as old as Adam.

Referring to the female volunteers is disparaging terminology (a bunch of old ladies) does nothing to convince me that this is the fault of females.

We are blessed to have a strong, loving, and masculine Pastor in my parish. There is no question who is in charge…however…there are plenty of women in leadership roles. Most of them also have children, many work fulltime, and STILL manage to find time to volunteer where they are led.

So = imo…if you want to get men back in the pews…pray for vocations. Support your pastors. VOLUNTEER to start a men’s group. Lead by example and volunteer for choir, EM, lector, and ushers. Bring your children to church, and stop blaming women!

Jesus is present at Mass…is the sight of a few “Skirts”, or dull and boring music really enough to keep you away from Him?

 

[Urn]

No, I’m sorry, you’re wrong about that. This has been discussed on other threads: the difference between modern and the characteristics of modernism, which is quite different. You’re new here. If you happened to have observed/read other conversations, it would be apparent the context I am using.

What the young man is describing is quite characteristic of the majority of modernistic parishes. That is actually (and unfortunately) a fact. Not modern parishes. Please learn the difference.

And again, I will repeat what I said in my earlier post, just to clarify one aspect of what modernism has come to result in, which includes the portion I bolded earlier:

It’s sad when people misuse terms like “modernism” in this context. It not only serves to confuse due to its inaccurate application, it also cheapens the actual meaning of the word due to the Chicken-Little Syndrome and it unnecessarily inflames discussion.

Much like the terms “liberals”, “Vatican II” or “novus ordo”, too often the term is misused as a general scapegoat for all the ills of the Church.

 

[ProVobis]

Jesus is present at Mass…is the sight of a few “Skirts”, or dull and boring music really enough to keep you away from Him?

I have to admit, a few times I have found it distracting. After reading some of the last few posts, the idea of that all-male (father-son, etc.) Mass is starting to sound more and more appealing. In fact, I remember a statistic which showed that fathers had more influence than mothers when it came to getting their kids to go to Mass in later years.

 

[Urn]

Why don’t the men and boys volunteer? Are the women fighting them off with sticks?

This excuse is just that–an excuse. I don’t buy the explanation that “politics” bars men from serving in parish leadership roles.

I still suspect it has to do with money issues (men can’t afford to work in low-paying positions).

But if men refuse to step up and take the positions that are volunteer positions or low-paying (perhaps they can work them as part-time jobs as many women do–there are a lot of women who work a job, and then come home and work a second job caring for their home and family), then men really have no right to complain about missing “male energy.” The energy is missing because the men aren’t there.

And here’s another suggestion for men who believe their parish has been hijacked by women–men, step up and give larger tithes and offerings and designate those monies to be used specifically for increasing the salaries of the various paid leadership positions in your parish . Then more men should be able to accept these positions because they will be able to earn enough money to support their families.

Men, I’m a woman, and this discussion tangent sounds like male whining to me. If women have taken over, then men need to step up and do whatever needs to be done. It’s been my personal experience in all walks of life–home, school, on-the-job, politics, community, and church–that the reason women take over is that men have dropped out and refuse to do the work, and SOMEONE has to do it! Think about that.

But again, in support of men, I honestly think that most men don’t volunteer for church leadership roles because they are already working long, hard hours to earn enough money to support their families, and they don’t accept the paid positions in their parish because the salaries are too low.

Liturgical “coordinator” positions of all types (my parish has 7) is a closed guild. If you aren’t a member of that guild you don’t stand a chance and if you’re not a female, you’re not getting into the guild.

I have seen a number of men apply for open positions in my parish such as these. Not one time (to my knowledge) has one been given the position.

 

[Urn]

I have to admit, a few times I have found it distracting. After reading some of the last few posts, the idea of that all-male (father-son, etc.) Mass is starting to sound more and more appealing. In fact, I remember a statistic which showed that fathers had more influence than mothers when it came to getting their kids to go to Mass in later years.

Amen. I had never heard of the concept before but it’s a darned good one. Many Catholic retreats are single sex. Many Catholic fellowships are single sex…

 

[zab]

Liturgical “coordinator” positions of all types (my parish has 7) is a closed guild. If you aren’t a member of that guild you don’t stand a chance and if you’re not a female, you’re not getting into the guild.

I have seen a number of men apply for open positions in my parish such as these. Not one time (to my knowledge) has one been given the position.

Then, the problem is more than “a closed (female) guild”.

 

[Urn]

FrStevenJones:

If you have a background in business, you no doubt have taken part in group brainstorming. The process is simple but critical.

A question or problem is defined. Discussion ensues WITHOUT criticism. Group members are asked to offer their suggestions, they are written down and posted WITHOUT criticism to avoid the loss of a good ideas. Once everyone is exhausted of ideas THEN the critical discussion begins, with the initial ideas staring everyone in the face. Not so easy to discount ideas in that setting.

Parishes need to learn to correctly brainstorm (much as we are doing here) to solve many problems in order to find the REAL solutions and so that parishioners have some real BUY-IN.

I led a brainstorming session at my parish some time ago. Two people lacked the self control not to immediately attack others after they suggested solutions. Rather than have the others dummy-up, I had to dismiss them. Both were “liturgical coordinators” at my parish.

 

[Greg_N]

It’s sad when people misuse terms like “modernism” in this context. It not only serves to confuse due to its inaccurate application, it also cheapens the actual meaning of the word due to the Chicken-Little Syndrome and it unnecessarily inflames discussion.

Much like the terms “liberals”, “Vatican II” or “novus ordo”, too often the term is misused as a general scapegoat for all the ills of the Church.

Ughh.

Would you mind explaining how the term was “misused” in this context?

I guess the ‘The Oath against Modernism’ which was issued by the Pope and now Saint Pius X is redundant in your opinion? And the promulgation of Pascendi Dominici Gregis (On the doctrines of the modernists) was only meant to “inflame discussion”; as I don’t see the term being used outside this context.

 

[Cat]

Out of context, it could be seen that way, but when a parent reports that an otherwise fervent 17-year-old has to drag himself to Mass, it confirms the reality of the way the male psyche responds, and to what he best responds. It’s not about pleasing men or satisfying certain “terms” or requirements, as a condition of their attendance. It’s a logical dynamic:

Catholic men, like Catholic women, should go to Mass out of burning desire to do so.
The style of Masses, dynamics of parish governance, and absence of visible male energy in many parishes discourages male participation, which radically reduces male identification with the whole event.
It is difficult to ask any segment to continue a fervent commitment to Mass when so many points of identification are missing.

Josh and Mark, you may be different, and you also may be able to override more easily what other men cannot, or you may be blessed with a more virile parish, shall we say. This discussion reminds me of the Altar Girl threads where this very topic of visual & concrete reference points (as well as group identification) came up. Anyone who has taught boys for any length of time has the opportunity to observe what they do and don’t respond to. This thread is not about what whether men should steel themselves against an impulse, or overcome their internal apathy, but how to “get men back to Mass.” That’s the question Father is asking.

He’s talking about practical realities, that’s all.

And let me just say from a woman’s point of view that the discussion of what appeals to men little and what appeals to them more (at Mass, and in parishes) is also true for me. There’s something weird about parishes dominated by women and by a female “message,” where the priest seems to play a subordinate role, and Masses where men are virtually absent – which is unfortunately too many of them. I get much more out of Mass and out of a parish when those factors that also appeal to men are abundant.

I disagree with the statement that I have bold-faced above.

We should attend Mass out of obedience to Our Lord Jesus Christ and Holy Mother Church. It doesn’t matter if we feel like we are getting anything or nothing out of the Mass–we go because He has asked to go.

It would be wonderful if we all had a burning desire to attend Mass. But the fact that we don’t have a burning desire to attend Mass doesn’t make us any less followers of Jesus. What makes us a follower of Jesus is that we follow Him places where we DON’T want to go. We set aside our personal preferences, our hopes, our dreams, and our desires, and we follow Him into places that we would rather not go.

And it would be a mistake to assume that if we could somehow “adjust” the Mass, we would develop a burning desire to attend. No matter what is done to the Mass, there will always be some aspect of the Mass that we find unpleasant or displeasing, and in our stubborn human weakness, we will return to that unpleasant place and scratch at it, just like we scratch at a bug bite or a scab. It’s amazing how humans will ignore breathtaking scenery and instead, be irritated by someone in front of us whose shorts don’t fit well.

It is not the mountaintop experiences that help us to become more like Jesus, Our Lord. Those are wonderful, yes, and we all need at least some mountaintop experiences in our life. But it is in the valleys and trenches and low places that we learn to love Jesus, for it is there that we have to trust Him and obey Him.

 

[Urn]

I’m sorry, but this whole thread comes across as pretty misogynistic. I mean, what exactly do you see as women’s role in the parish??? Is it, as some suggest, for them to be the parish secretary, clean the parish, take care of the altar linens, decorate the church (as long as it isn’t too feminine), mind the children, and stay in the pews and just pray instead of being “involved” with the liturgy? It seems like you (and some others in this thread) believe that no female should ever serve at the altar in any capacity (reader, EMHC, altar server).

You’re providing a superb example of what this problem exists and rarely gets solved. As soon as it’s even broached, people like you (of both sexes) are quick to draw the misogyny sword – eager to kill any potentially fruitful discussion.

For what it’s worth, I think far too many women seek positions like “reader, EMHC, altar server” specifically because they share your mindset and that is a foundation for disaster – and a loss of parishioners over time.

I’ve heard it said that to be Catholic is to be “counter cultural”. Maybe once you are the pastor of your own parish, and putting your house in order, you can use this as an excuse for getting rid of anything you feel causes the liturgy and/or parish life to become feminized. Speak to the men of your parish, both in your homilies and face-to-face, and ask them to step up and help you build a parish that is counter cultural and reflects the “strong, virile presence” of Christ. Let the people of your parish know that it’s your parish and that from now on you will be the only one distributing the Body of Christ, and that there will be only two men distributing the Precious Blood (if you decide to allow the parishioners to partake of the Precious Blood at all), one of whom is a sacristan/instituted acolyte who can act as your “captain” and help you prepare for and clean up after Mass, make sure the lectors and altar boys are all present and accounted for, and find suitable replacements as needed.

It all comes down to leadership from the pastor. In my parish my pastor has no desire to spend the considerable time and effort necessary to reform the cancerous bureaucracy that some have spent the last 40+ years building. A bureaucracy choke-full of incompetent, inbred individuals who largely spend their time defending their turf.