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ServantSon
Guest
I couldn’t agree with this comment more.
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Cat
Guest
I agree with you about stereotyping men, or anyone, for that matter. But men have definitely suffered from some very inaccurate stereotyping.
My husband is and always has been a fan of figure skating. Yes, he likes football (Go Bears!). But it’s always been figure skating.
My dad (RIP) was the same way–I grew up in a house where we all watched figure skating on the weekends, and Dad would grump when football was on. He was a rough, tough guy who worked with his hands as a pipe-fitter and farmer. But he was a roller skater when he was young, and he loved watching figure skating on TV.
I have a theory that the roughest, toughest guys are usually the most poetic and tender-hearted. I’ve seen this over and over. Again, it’s a stereotype, so I have to be careful not to assume it of all rough, tough guys. But it’s just amazing to me how the biggest, strongest, most-bearded guy is usually the one with the lovely tenor voice who can bring everyone to tears singing “Ave Maria.”
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Urn
Guest
I can’t say my experience in a handful of parishes is statistically representative of all parishes in the USA but it seems to be for the parishes I have visited here in the Western US.
It would take a very courageous pastor with a great deal of leadership ability to even address the possibility that one’s sex could be an issue in this context. My parish has not had that level of leadership in decades.
I think two things particularly hurt my parish. For six years we had a pastor who believed that the more lay ministers we had “involved” at each Mass, the better. This meant we always had two readers, as many EMsHC as possible (7), two “Mass captains” (sacristans) at each Mass, etc., etc. Then ridiculous “coordinator” positions were created to “manage” this abominable bureaucracy. That legacy impacts my parish to this day.
The other thing is the horribly inbred nature of the “liturgical staff” at my parish. There are seven “coordinators” from “liturgical coordinator” to “music ministry.” All seven are women. Many times over the years I have seen far more qualified men apply for positions advertised in the bulletin without success. Now they are not even posted any longer. The universal excuse of “there are no men who want to get involved” is invoked should anyone ask. Though this group is inbred, the level of turf wars are legendary. My pastor spends a fair amount of time trying to referee them.
A neighboring parish had a similar bureaucracy. A new pastor took over (a religious order priest), gave things a good look and rather than deal with the bureaucracy he simply dismantled the one at his parish. One reader per Mass and only the best readers were retained. One EMsHC (if needed) instead of the seven at my parish. There are no “captains” or “coordinators” either. It has seemed to work well for him but he was raked over the coals for a couple of years. At least he had the courage to deal with it.
I suspect my concern is moot in those parishes where it might be valid because most pastors simply are not going to recognize that one’s sex might be an issue.
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Urn
Guest
You’re absolutely right but you’re treading on some (unfortunately) very taboo ground. A male-only Mass (or for that matter a female-only Mass) is a superb idea. Just think about the practical implementation points though.
In my parish if a group of women wanted to start a new Sunday Mass for women only as a way to focus the attendees and craft the Mass to their desires, I don’t think anyone would care. I don’t think it would last, but no one would care.
If a “male-only” Mass was created for the same reasons, all heck would break loose. Being a public liturgy of the Church, there would be more than a few rabble-rousing females that would just attend anyway. There would be charges of sexism and misogyny. It would get ugly real quick.
In any event I think we are giving Fr. at least a touch of insight into why at least some men drift away from the Mass.
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zab
Guest
I don’t know your situation but there is nothing wrong with some of the things that you mentioned. Having two readers at Sunday Mass is fine. That change has been made in our parish, too, and we have a very good pastor. We usually have a man and a woman do the readings, and sometimes it is a husband and his wife or a father and his daughter. As far as “Captains” of EMHC go, it is usually not a favored duty of anyone, male or female. And sacristans are a big help in getting things ready especially when the priest hears confessions before Mass.
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Urn
Guest
Two readers is OK unless the change was specifically made to serve the readers or to intentionally create a bureaucracy so that yet another position (“coordinator”) could be created.
I sincerely hope your parish does not have “captains” as mine does. They are not needed and in the case of my parish were created in order to place people on a stage and to once again create a bureaucracy.
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Catholic_Wife
Guest
If you have to offer excuses such as; what kind of hymns and music are being offered, better sermons, etc. etc. etc., just to get you to come to Mass, then maybe there are bigger issues that you have going on with your faith than just how Mass is being celebrated. You have to have that passion for the Faith burning with fire inside you. To me, if you don’t have a deep, deep passion for Christ in your heart beforehand, then even if you do attend Mass, you will likely be just paying lip service and not much more.
I think that Mark and Josh make good points. A pastor can make some changes to the liturgy, but if a man (or woman) doesn’t have a passion for Christ that permeates their life, how likely are they to stay, or to stay for the right reasons? Do we want to attract lots of men, most of whom may suffer from lukewarmness, who don’t know much about the faith, and have no interest in learning more (and who will be complained about on CAF)? Or do we want to attract men who love God with all their heart, soul, strength and mind, even if there are fewer of them?
and in the case of my parish were created in order to place people on a stage and to once again create a bureaucracy.
Since our parish does not have designated sacristans, we have “captains” who prepare everything for Communion and wash the bowls and chalices after they have been purified.
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Urn
Guest
We don’t have designated sacristans either. It’s sad to hear that “captains” (good grief, even the name is offensive) isn’t limited to my parish. If you must use EMsHC have one of them be the excuse me, “captain.”
I set up/took down for Mass for many years as an altar server. Somehow we managed without “captains.”
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Cat
Guest
Are any of these liturgical staff positions held by women “paid” positions? I’m guessing they are.
I’m guessing that these positions pay very low wages, certainly not enough to support a family. That’s why men don’t end up in these positions. They hear the salary and say, “Sorry, no can do.”
One of my female friends works as a Music Director in a parish. She earns around $18,000 a year. This is not enough to support a family. It’s below poverty level wages. (She’s older, so this isn’t an issue with her.) She does not teach, but she plays a lot of funerals and weddings, which is how she makes enough money to supply her and her husband’s needs.
Men can’t usually afford to take on low-paying jobs. Women can, especially if the positions allow them to have flexible hours, clock in less hours, and work from home. Sometimes these type of church positions even make it possible for a woman to bring her babies and small children to work with her.
Music Director might be the exception, and you often see males are MDs in parishes. That’s because many musicians earn extra money by teaching, either in school (the parish school or another school or both), or private lesson students. Some musicians also make money by playing/singing gigs when they have time.
But still, many men can’t afford to be full-time musicians–the monies earned simply aren’t enough to support a family, and the benefits aren’t always adequate. Most musicians, if they can, hold down a “day job” that does earn a decent and regular wage. Or they are married to someone who holds down a job with a regular paycheck and benefits.
I’m not denying that “parish politics” may be playing a role in why so many of the liturgical staff positions in your parish are held by women.
But I think the main reason is probably money, or more accurately, lack of money.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
You have a point, certainly not invalid. However, the poster specifically said that men would apply to the positions, but would never be considered. Furthermore, I don’t know of many parishes that can afford to pay for seven or eight “coordinator” positions, even if they are not paid well. Perhaps most parishes can afford to pay one music director one modest wage, and wealthier parishes perhaps one or two more, but unless this is a major cathedral or something, I can’t see a parish having eight people in what are essentially dispensable luxury positions for an average parish. (Yes, I think eight “coordinator” posititions are probably dispensable luxuries for the vast majority of parishes.)
I think most men don’t want anything to do with it because they are disinclined to fight about silly things like hymn choices (especially when the Church gives us a set of music for every single Mass in the Missal and otherwise), and would rather spend their time at the KofC or, more usually, on the couch. Now, not all women–certainly not!–are like this. But when that becomes part of a parish’s way of doing things, it is near impossible to get rid of it, and it will always turn men, at least men, off from wanting to volunteer.
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Sarabande
Guest
You and Cat made very good points. It all depends on the dynamics of the parish. I cannot speak for other coordinator positions as I don’t have first hand experience with what goes on there. I can speak about music positions. YoungTradCath’s point is very valid when it comes to volunteer music positions. Not that women don’t work full time jobs as well, but in most families the husband is the main bread winner. Many jobs basically pressure you to work more than the typical 40 hour work week. By the time the weekend comes along, the thought of having a huge responsibility of planning the music liturgy and then also having the time to practice your instrument/voice and the music you will be playing/singing during the week and the morning of is not really desirable, and it’s completely understandable. They may just want to attend mass without all of that extra responsibility. On top of that, they may want that time which would be used to practice, warm up, etc. to be with their families. Speaking from experience, it’s a lot of sacrifice on the weekends and you need a spouse and children who would be understanding. I know that women have similar feelings, especially when they have just as stressful and time-ridden occupations.
Cat’s point is also very valid when it comes to the paid positions. Most men won’t apply if they know what the salary is. For a woman who might be a SAHM or who works part time or does music for a living (I’m two of the three… although I will probably have to find part-time work in order to afford sending my daughter to school this year.) it’s good extra income and allows the woman to be home with her children during the week rather than spending all of that money on daycare or babysitters, with the occasional funeral in the mornings which only takes up the entire morning and the amount you are usually paid for the funeral would cover the little bit you need to spend on a babysitter. You have the time to practice here and there throughout the day and then more focused for the couple hours during the evening when the children are asleep, still giving you plenty of time to be with your husband later in the evening.
Now, one thing we don’t know from the original post is whether or not the men who applied for the positions knew what the salaries were and if it was offered and turned down, etc. Just from speaking with male colleagues of mine, many will apply and audition for music director positions… sometimes just for audition practice, sometimes hoping that they could negotiate a slightly higher salary, or sometimes not even knowing what the salary is. Many know that unless you are auditioning for a cathedral position, at an affluent parish or a special parish like a shrine or something of that sort (none of which are guaranteed a liveable wage), a Catholic parish will offer a poverty-level salary even if it is a full-time position. You usually need another source of income. Most of the men I know who have music director positions at Catholic parishes are single men with no dependents. They usually live in tiny, bachelor apartments and can live ok with their living if they hustle with weddings and funerals and also maybe do some teaching. Some have other sources of income, especially if they live in a nicer place, but they have the time to practice for hours after they come home from work because they have no one to give their time to… no wife, no children, etc. Now, some men are older, retired and married with no dependents. They have the time and the means to take on a small salary at that point in their lives. And some can still play quite well, unless their arthritis or age affects them. Singing-wise their voices tend to be less-than-bearable, including older women’s voices, unless they had a good technique and training (such as a wonderful tenor who was in his 70s and was a great music director at my childhood parish when I was a teenager. He and his wife were on the voice faculty at the local university. They were old, but their voices held up quite nicely throughout their 70s.)
Anyway, these are things to consider when wondering why men don’t take on certain positions.
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Classicist
Guest
As an atheist-going-deist, I only started to go to Mass because of some masculine Franciscan friars who showed me, by their lives, what true sacrifice and manhood consist of. I would have lost the faith in the crucial early years without them, because the throng of old ladies does not inspire me
First of all, get men back to Mass by ceaselessly praying for vocations to the priesthood and religious life. If you’re a male, serve at the altar more often and be more active in parish life outside Mass. Smack a few lazy male Catholic friends around too…
First of all, get men back to Mass by ceaselessly praying for vocations to the priesthood and religious life. If you’re a male, serve at the altar more often and be more active in parish life outside Mass. Smack a few lazy male Catholic friends around too…
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jmcrae
Guest
As I understand it, the role of the Mass Captain is to make sure subs are in place when the assigned people don’t show up. He or she would know who the qualified readers, EMHCs and Altar Servers are, and could make sure all the roles are filled.
I don’t see it as a “power” role at all.
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zab
Guest
The same thing that draws men back to Mass is what draws women-a desire to get closer to God and to His Church, a desire for healing, conversion or a deeper conversion. A good opportunity to draw men and women is to have a parish mission and that usually begins by having the mission priest give the homily at the Sunday Masses so the congregation gets a taste of what the mission will be like. Good missions draw people to repentance. They do not repel people into thinking that their situations are hopeless.
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zab
Guest
Well, I threatened him with a gun, but it didn’t work.
I don’t see how this falls on the wives.
(I am kidding, I haven’t threatened anyone, ever. )
While I thought your answer was funny. You do have a point. I think the best way that wives can get their husbands to Mass is by a loving example and that may take time. Nagging or belittling (or threatening
)him will probably have a negative effect.
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Sarabande
Guest
This is true. Although my grandfather was a Lutheran, my grandmother never pressed the issue about attending mass with her. He went with her every once in a while, but she always kept him in her prayers and attending daily mass. He truly believed that my grandmother was a saint. After 50 years of marriage and loving example and prayers by my grandmother, he decided that he wanted to enter RCIA, himself - no pressure from my grandmother. Unfortunately, he passed away before he could become an “official” Catholic, but because he had the desire to be Catholic, the pastor allowed for him to have his funeral at their parish. Yes, it can take time… sometimes 50 years.
While I thought your answer was funny. You do have a point. I think the best way that wives can get their husbands to Mass is by a loving example and that may take time. Nagging or belittling (or threatening
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maryjk
Guest
Thanks.
While I thought your answer was funny. You do have a point. I think the best way that wives can get their husbands to Mass is by a loving example and that may take time. Nagging or belittling (or threatening
My husband doesn’t attend Mass. He isn’t a practicing Catholic.
I have been told by numerous priests NOT to nag or belittle (or threaten) my husband about attending Mass.
Rather I am to be an example.
So I do my best, trying to be the best Catholic Christian I can be.
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Urn
Guest
The only paid position is that of the head of the music ministry. She gets paid more than $18K/year and she is worth it. Of the seven I suspect she is the only truly competent staffer, largely because she was trained at a large cathedral in a large city.
As I said I have known very competent men (mostly young retirees) who have applied for the gratis positions over the years. The positions have always went to females and always to a friend of one or more of the insiders. I hope this is unique to my parish but I sincerely doubt it is.
There will always be excuses for the way things are. The negative practical impact of sexism/feminism to the Mass is profound. So are ministries that are effectively closed to “outsiders.” It’s so utterly non-PC that it can’t even be recognized in most parishes.
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Urn
Guest
I do. At least in my parish. Beginning with the title “captain.” Just out of curiosity, how did the Church get by in years past without lay “captains?”
One way was by keeping things much simpler. If I compare my parish (“A”) to a neighboring parish (“B”) the difference is remarkable even though they are about the same size and have the same sized Masses.
Parish A: 1 “coordinator”, 2 readers, 2 “captains”, 7 EMsHC, 2 altar servers, 4-5 chalices to set up and then clean and 5 ciboria to set-up and clean. 14 people (plus clergy and music ministry) and 9-10 sacred vessels.
Parish B 1 reader, 1 EMHC and 2 altar servers. 4 people (plus clergy and music ministry) and 2-3 sacred vessels.
14 vs. 4.
Long ago my parish created a bloated liturgy bureaucracy to create positions for people to “get involved” and these people now guard these positions as if they lives depended upon them. To suggest this 14 person circus does not have a gravely negative impact on the Mass is to ignore reality.
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Urn
Guest
I’m not trying to discount what you’re saying but here’s how it would go in my parish if we actually had a mission.
It would be announced. The same 30-40 people who attended ALL parish activities (largely the liturgical insiders) would attend and that would be it. Not only would they be the only people there, they are the very people that are disliked by those of us in the pews.
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