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ProVobis
Guest
Doesn’t look like anyone likes those money collectors, but someone’s got to do it.
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Mark121359
Well-known member
Maybe it’s just me, but this whole premise sounds like we’re somehow just trying to come up with gimmicks to draw men back to Church. If you have to offer excuses such as; what kind of hymns and music are being offered, better sermons, etc. etc. etc., just to get you to come to Mass, then maybe there are bigger issues that you have going on with your faith than just how Mass is being celebrated. You have to have that passion for the Faith burning with fire inside you. To me, if you don’t have a deep, deep passion for Christ in your heart beforehand, then even if you do attend Mass, you will likely be just paying lip service and not much more. And this I speak from experience!…“This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.” Isaiah 29:13
Peace, Mark
Peace, Mark
C
Cat
Guest
The Copland piece was the melody of a Shaker piece called “Simple Gifts,” and the music was originally, as the title suggests–simple. Copland did a musical “trick” by taking this simple Shaker piece and orchestrating, thus surprising and delighting audiences. But the melody was originally “simple,” and playing it with 2 instruments and singers actually conveys the melody quite nicely.
To DANCERS and others who are familiar with dance, music, theater, skating, the arts, etc., the lyrics are very much “real world!” Let’s not leave a whole group of people out! To a lot of dancers, including my husband, a very masculine man who ICE DANCES, this hymn is extremely meaningful! Just one hymn–can’t all the non-dancers and those who despise dance grant the dancers in the crowd just one little hymn?!
As for being abstract, YES, they are abstract, because the hymn is a POEM, and poetry uses abstract imagery, not “statements of fact.” Men throughout the ages have written and read poetry, and I certainly hope that this generation of men and boys is not the first generation to despise poetry and fail to understand it and dismiss it as “effeminate” or “pablum” or any of the other lovely words that I’ve seen here on CAF. (Perhaps, considering the dismal state of American public education, the men truly are unable to understand the lyrics to Lord of the Dance and other poetry, but I give them more credit and think that they are capable of figuring it out and possibly even appreciating it.)
Romantic? I don’t think so. What’s romantic about:
I danced on the Sabbath and cured the lame
The holy people, they said it was a shame!
They whipped and stripped and then hung me high
Left me there on a cross to die!
Not my idea of romantic at all.
I think that if the hymn, Lord of the Dance, were played by a strong instrumentalist with a strong and sure rhythm, at a “dance” tempo, and sung by a male cantor with a deep, rich voice, many men in the audience would feel their blood coursing through their bodies and be reminded of the Scottish men who marched to war to the sound of bagpipes, or the Greek men who celebrated life by dancing together, with other men.
The problem is not the hymn, the problem is that it is all too often played on an organ (inappropriate, unless the organist uses good registration and an appropriate style) or soft guitar, it is played much too slowly (because the instrumentalist is trying to make sure that people can fit the words into the tune), and it is cantored by a female who has soft, light voice. No wonder people get the impression that this song is swishy. It isn’t.
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josh987654321
Guest
:clapping:
The short books on the mass I shared above, will kindle that fire.
God Bless
Thank you for reading
Josh
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Cat, I am a classical musician. No need to “teach” me.
I am a "DANCER"as well. Why are you capitalizing the word as if to imply that I should be excluded from the conversation?
I don’t care for the tone of your entire post here. The shouting capital letters and all the other heavy-handed stuff is a bit over the top.
Yes, I am more than aware of the “whipping and stripping” verse.
“Romantic” has many meanings. Most of the lyrics, combined with the tune, make it come across as light and bucolic. In fact, one of the most prevalent criticisms of modernist liturgical music is a disconnect between the melody and the lyrics. (In this case, the above verse would be an example.)
I hardly claim to speak for all men. Somebody mentioned the piece, and I will merely say that among the men I know in a few parishes, they do not relate to it. Perhaps some men tolerate it or even like it. Many women, as well as men, do not find it to be appropriate liturgical music.
I’m off this thread, as it has become a referendum on one piece of music, with challenges to those who point out a few characteristics of it.
S
Sarabande
Guest
Yes, I agree with this. Unfortunately, the two terms have been used interchangeably as if they are one in the same. Although, I don’t hear it continuously in real life, it’s not unusual to hear people use them interchangeably in order to describe something in a negative light. Therein lies a problem.
Haha!Yet, I do believe that “effeminate music” is a legitimate category and is not appropriate for Mass. Most males and females are not drawn to effeminacy. Feel free to disagree
Well, Father, I guess we’ll have to disagree on this. (Though, I will clarify that I agree with you that I also believe that most males and females are not drawn to effeminacy) I do realize that you are definitely not alone in this belief, though. As I mentioned before, it really doesn’t bother me when people describe music as “feminine” or “masculine”, especially when comparing equal pieces in a non-derogatory way, even if I don’t believe that music has a gender. I have absolutely NO problem, though, in people criticising pieces of music based on composition, style, taste, etc. Composition students get criticised by their teachers and peers all the time and I’ve been a part of and have seen enough master classes to know that although we musicians are a sensitive lot, we are usually tough cookies to handle being ripped to shreds by the “masters” and the “jurors”, sometimes in front of a large group of people. It makes us better musicians… to avoid giving only a part of ourselves in our music, to avoid the saccharine or the “effeminate” as you and others like to describe it. lol! 
That said, I have heard text to songs, both secular and religious, in which I’ve heard plenty of men describe as “gay” - both by gay and straight men. So, go figure.
You have made that very clear and thank you for clarifying.
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FrStevenJones
Guest
The conversation is getting quite tangential, perhaps it is time to retire this thread. Thanks to all who contributed, I have learned a lot from your varied points of view, whether I personally agree, or not. As sort of a closing thought, I will say that certainly a faithless person will not attend Mass at all, as others have pointed out. But worship of Jesus Christ should be offered within an environment of prayerfulness that is appropriate to both men and women. That includes all the incidentals (music, etc.). That is what I’m interested in, thanks for your contributions to this topic!Cat, I am a classical musician. No need to “teach” me.
I am a "DANCER"as well. Why are you capitalizing the word as if to imply that I should be excluded from the conversation?
I don’t care for the tone of your entire post here. The shouting capital letters and all the other heavy-handed stuff is a bit over the top.
Yes, I am more than aware of the “whipping and stripping” verse.
“Romantic” has many meanings. Most of the lyrics, combined with the tune, make it come across as light and bucolic. In fact, one of the most prevalent criticisms of modernist liturgical music is a disconnect between the melody and the lyrics. (In this case, the above verse would be an example.)
I hardly claim to speak for all men. Somebody mentioned the piece, and I will merely say that among the men I know in a few parishes, they do not relate to it. Perhaps some men tolerate it or even like it. Many women, as well as men, do not find it to be appropriate liturgical music.
I’m off this thread, as it has become a referendum on one piece of music, with challenges to those who point out a few characteristics of it.
J
jmcrae
Guest
Thanks, Father!
S
Sarabande
Guest
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Elizabeth502
Guest
I add my thank-yous to Father and agree with him on the essential problem of fidelity (with regard to Mass attendance). However, while there shouldn’t be “conditions” to someone’s attendance (I agree with Mark’s comment on this), the practical reality is that a lack of commitment is further compounded by a history of liturgies at any given parish which are unappealing to many parishioners, whatever the gender.
I will further qualify (or expand, whatever it’s called) my commentary on LOTD to propose that taste and sensitivity, with regard to any music in any religious setting, is key. Appalachian Spring, and its origins (Simple Gifts) is of an entirely different character, as a piece of music, than the way LOTD is performed in several parishes I have attended. One major problem with LOTD is that it corrupts the cadence of Simple Gifts, which is far more attenuated and less bouncy and “happy.” Also, the way LOTD is sung, congregationally, is not with the long lyrical line of Simple Gifts, but with a choppy, “marching” and somewhat juvenile style. This is a problem of arrangement and of performance, both.
Unlike LOTD, the words of Simple Gifts are exquisite. They speak of the virtue of simplicity – a virtue very much ignored in much of modern Christianity. (While humility is often remembered, simplicity rarely is, although it may continue to be emphasized in Religious Orders. There is a difference between the two virtues.)
Though SG is not “sacred music,” it does carry a profoundly spiritual message, and (importantly) conveys that also through an uncontrived marriage of lyric and melody.
The Mass is both a spiritual and a sense-based experience. We are spiritually affected, and spiritually drawn and repelled, by aesthetic experiences (visual and auditory) which are part of Mass. I encourage parishioners everywhere to express appreciation to cantors, music directors, and choirs, for music, settings, and accompaniment chosen which does resonate. The music team will tend to interpret silence about other music as less appealing, so there’s probably no need to even mention it. Also, it’s important to compliment the priest (I’m sure many here do) not just on well-prepared and delivered homilies, but on the beauty of the way he celebrates the rubrics themselves. When I attend such a well-done (sensitive & integrated) Mass, I thank and compliment the priest for that. They deserve to hear that, I think.
I will further qualify (or expand, whatever it’s called) my commentary on LOTD to propose that taste and sensitivity, with regard to any music in any religious setting, is key. Appalachian Spring, and its origins (Simple Gifts) is of an entirely different character, as a piece of music, than the way LOTD is performed in several parishes I have attended. One major problem with LOTD is that it corrupts the cadence of Simple Gifts, which is far more attenuated and less bouncy and “happy.” Also, the way LOTD is sung, congregationally, is not with the long lyrical line of Simple Gifts, but with a choppy, “marching” and somewhat juvenile style. This is a problem of arrangement and of performance, both.
Unlike LOTD, the words of Simple Gifts are exquisite. They speak of the virtue of simplicity – a virtue very much ignored in much of modern Christianity. (While humility is often remembered, simplicity rarely is, although it may continue to be emphasized in Religious Orders. There is a difference between the two virtues.)
Though SG is not “sacred music,” it does carry a profoundly spiritual message, and (importantly) conveys that also through an uncontrived marriage of lyric and melody.
The Mass is both a spiritual and a sense-based experience. We are spiritually affected, and spiritually drawn and repelled, by aesthetic experiences (visual and auditory) which are part of Mass. I encourage parishioners everywhere to express appreciation to cantors, music directors, and choirs, for music, settings, and accompaniment chosen which does resonate. The music team will tend to interpret silence about other music as less appealing, so there’s probably no need to even mention it. Also, it’s important to compliment the priest (I’m sure many here do) not just on well-prepared and delivered homilies, but on the beauty of the way he celebrates the rubrics themselves. When I attend such a well-done (sensitive & integrated) Mass, I thank and compliment the priest for that. They deserve to hear that, I think.
J
josh987654321
Guest
I don’t mean to offend anyone, but I think the music can often attract people to the mass for the wrong reasons.
God Bless
Thank you for reading
Josh
If people attend the mass for entertainment through something like the music played there, than it is no different to those in the above passage who looked for Jesus only because of the miracles, only because they ate all they wanted.
God Bless
Thank you for reading
Josh
U
Urn
Guest
This is a wonderful question and I think it has to do with a lack of parish leadership coupled with something more difficult to describe, but I will try.
Because clerical roles are not open to women, some women seek lay liturgical positions (sacristan, head reader, head extraordinary minister, head altar server, etc.) as “alternatives” for the wrong reasons. Namely: control, power and recognition. While I’m sure some men act in this same manner, it’s far more common with women in my own experience.
We have several women like this in my parish and their turf wars have done horrible damage to the parish over the years. I have asked each and every one over the years if they would be priests or deacons if they were males? Each responded with an emphatic yes.
I think once such people become entrenched and there is no parish leadership to oust them, members (particularly men) get tired of seeing the impact it has on the Mass and they float away.
The other problem is that this matter is so terribly non-PC, it’s difficult to even discuss it without getting attacked as being a sexist or bigot.
U
Urn
Guest
I attend both a Latin Rite parish and a Ruthenian parish each week. I think the Eastern Side of the Church is far more effeminate than the West – and that’s not a knock either.
From the vestments to all the furnishings to how churches are decorated.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Yes. Which is why I said this below. (Bolded)
Music is not “the reason” per se. But the aesthetics of the music are a dimension of the experience, only insofar as they are integral to spirituality.
IOW, let me put it this way. I also don’t attend “because of” the music. However, you’d better believe that music, along with other factors and not apart from it, affects which parish I attend, among many available to me. And sometimes the parish(es) I attend – I won’t go into why I have to attend more than one – have mediocre or even bad music now and then. It certainly doesn’t make me stop attending Mass. And it doesn’t even make me leave the parish if that’s occasional, because I already have a “sense of place” there within a community, which overall has shown consistently two ingredients which are essential to my parish (not Mass) choice:
(a) a congregation which demonstrates by its reverent behavior that it wants to be there
(b) a priest who demonstrates care for the atmosphere at Mass and shows himself to be a prayerful person (most are!) and puts effort into his homily (most do!).
If there were consistently great music every Sunday, but (a) or (b) were missing, I would be choosing a different parish.
You didn’t offend me, Josh, but the question is not one of entertainment.
I will add that the two parishes I currently regularly attend have a high proportion of men attending.
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FrStevenJones
Guest
I have to admit I have no experience with different behaviors from men and women, with regards to these parish roles. I tend to think men and women behave similarly:some are good managers of people, some are not! Now, I’ve only been a priest for a year, and the pastor deals directly with th EMHCs, lectors etc, so my experience in a church setting is limited. But,I have plenty of business experience. Perhaps I am naive to this issue, but now I am curious, have others witnessed this sort of behavior, and do you see difference between the sexes as far as church “turf wars”?
S
Sarabande
Guest
That is a major positive, Father!!
I do think it’s important that pastors have good business acumen to help keep a parish going (or at least have a lay person or another fellow priest with good business acumen).Anyway, with your question, I have worked in numerous parishes, either as an on-going, staff musician or as a free lancer. I also have a lot of colleagues/friends who work in parishes throughout the area. Not all parishes have the “turf war” problems, but I have experienced it first hand. I have experienced as a new-comer cantor or choir member, where certain women and every once in a while, some men, feel threatened. They considered themselves Queen or King of the roost and then some young, “upstart” comes in just to give of their talents for their parish. They have this unfounded fear that they are going to be knocked off their “throne”. I find that this tends to happen with volunteers who don’t have much other experience singing outside of the church world and not much training musically or vocally. There are probably many reasons why this occurs. Part of it might be because they feel insecure when another talented, trained musician (singer or instrumentalist) has the time to volunteer their talents for mass. Sometimes these other people are just as talented with their voice even if they can’t read music, but I do think there is a human element in feeling insecure and maybe even a little jealousy when new faces who might be equally as talented or more talented come in. I’ve always tried to make these men and women see that I have no interest in “knocking” them off their “thrones”. I’m fairly quiet and just do my duty as a music minister. I like to get along with everyone. Most of the time it works, but sometimes it won’t or it will take a long time to make them see.
I’ve known “organists” who couldn’t play their way out of a paper bag and then would try to undermine the main organist by trashing them and their ability (one of which is probably one of the best organists in the area and is a brilliant musician, as well as extremely humble one), and then also try to trash talk about me to other organists about my musicianship so that I couldn’t get work around town. Fortunately, this one particular organist made enough of a reputation for himself as a delusional hack and I worked with enough people for them to realize that what was spread about me were lies, and so my reputation was repaired. The church music world is small and word gets around about who you talk about. I’ve worked with certain guitarists as a freelancer who will treat me rudely at first and from what I later find out, it’s because they thought I might be one of those “snobby” classical musicians and were afraid that if I came in, even as a freelancer, they might get pushed out. They have their guard up, understandably, before they really get to know me. Then once, they know me, they realize I’m not like they thought and I’m even sometimes asked to sing there again. Even if I don’t particularly think that guitars are completely appropriate for liturgy, I never treat the musicians like they are inappropriate. I treat them as equals and work with them as such, doing what I can with my voice to make it as reverent and prayerful as possible. And let’s face it… not all churches have a working organ or even a piano, you work with what you have.
Outside of the church music politics, there are sometimes cliques which are of a certain kind of woman who tends to complain or gossip a lot and are very protective of their “turf”, and they sometimes sound like cackling chickens. If that turns me off, as a woman, I imagine it would turn off the average male and discourage him from wanting to participate.
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FrStevenJones
Guest
Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I am startled at how nuch education I am receiving on CAF. This is pricelessThat is a major positive, Father!!
Anyway, with your question, I have worked in numerous parishes, either as an on-going, staff musician or as a free lancer. I also have a lot of colleagues/friends who work in parishes throughout the area. Not all parishes have the “turf war” problems, but I have experienced it first hand. I have experienced as a new-comer cantor or choir member, where certain women and every once in a while, some men, feel threatened. They considered themselves Queen or King of the roost and then some young, “upstart” comes in just to give of their talents for their parish. They have this unfounded fear that they are going to be knocked off their “throne”. I find that this tends to happen with volunteers who don’t have much other experience singing outside of the church world and not much training musically or vocally. There are probably many reasons why this occurs. Part of it might be because they feel insecure when another talented, trained musician (singer or instrumentalist) has the time to volunteer their talents for mass. Sometimes these other people are just as talented with their voice even if they can’t read music, but I do think there is a human element in feeling insecure and maybe even a little jealousy when new faces who might be equally as talented or more talented come in. I’ve always tried to make these men and women see that I have no interest in “knocking” them off their “thrones”. I’m fairly quiet and just do my duty as a music minister. I like to get along with everyone. Most of the time it works, but sometimes it won’t or it will take a long time to make them see.
I’ve known “organists” who couldn’t play their way out of a paper bag and then would try to undermine the main organist by trashing them and their ability (one of which is probably one of the best organists in the area and is a brilliant musician, as well as extremely humble one), and then also try to trash talk about me to other organists about my musicianship so that I couldn’t get work around town. Fortunately, this one particular organist made enough of a reputation for himself as a delusional hack and I worked with enough people for them to realize that what was spread about me were lies, and so my reputation was repaired. The church music world is small and word gets around about who you talk about. I’ve worked with certain guitarists as a freelancer who will treat me rudely at first and from what I later find out, it’s because they thought I might be one of those “snobby” classical musicians and were afraid that if I came in, even as a freelancer, they might get pushed out. They have their guard up, understandably, before they really get to know me. Then once, they know me, they realize I’m not like they thought and I’m even sometimes asked to sing there again. Even if I don’t particularly think that guitars are completely appropriate for liturgy, I never treat the musicians like they are inappropriate. I treat them as equals and work with them as such, doing what I can with my voice to make it as reverent and prayerful as possible. And let’s face it… not all churches have a working organ or even a piano, you work with what you have.
Outside of the church music politics, there are sometimes cliques which are of a certain kind of woman who tends to complain or gossip a lot and are very protective of their “turf”, and they sometimes sound like cackling chickens. If that turns me off, as a woman, I imagine it would turn off the average male and discourage him from wanting to participate.
F
FrStevenJones
Guest
This is such a nice summary of the issue, offered with perspective, and I thank you for that, Elizabeth. It’s complex but in a way simple: a prayerful atmosphere, a holy priest, a congregation that loves Our Lord in the Mass, and stay away from anything that gets in the way of a prayerful experience!Yes. Which is why I said this below. (Bolded)
Music is not “the reason” per se. But the aesthetics of the music are a dimension of the experience, only insofar as they are integral to spirituality.
IOW, let me put it this way. I also don’t attend “because of” the music. However, you’d better believe that music, along with other factors and not apart from it, affects which parish I attend, among many available to me. And sometimes the parish(es) I attend – I won’t go into why I have to attend more than one – have mediocre or even bad music now and then. It certainly doesn’t make me stop attending Mass. And it doesn’t even make me leave the parish if that’s occasional, because I already have a “sense of place” there within a community, which overall has shown consistently two ingredients which are essential to my parish (not Mass) choice:
(a) a congregation which demonstrates by its reverent behavior that it wants to be there
(b) a priest who demonstrates care for the atmosphere at Mass and shows himself to be a prayerful person (most are!) and puts effort into his homily (most do!).
If there were consistently great music every Sunday, but (a) or (b) were missing, I would be choosing a different parish.
You didn’t offend me, Josh, but the question is not one of entertainment.
I will add that the two parishes I currently regularly attend have a high proportion of men attending.
C
Cat
Guest
I capitalized four (4) words out the fairly-long post, mainly to help people who are skimming through the thread to spot/read the main points and decide if they would be interested in bothering to read the entire post.Cat, I am a classical musician. No need to “teach” me.
I am a "DANCER"as well. Why are you capitalizing the word as if to imply that I should be excluded from the conversation?
I don’t care for the tone of your entire post here. The shouting capital letters and all the other heavy-handed stuff is a bit over the top.
Yes, I am more than aware of the “whipping and stripping” verse.
“Romantic” has many meanings. Most of the lyrics, combined with the tune, make it come across as light and bucolic. In fact, one of the most prevalent criticisms of modernist liturgical music is a disconnect between the melody and the lyrics. (In this case, the above verse would be an example.)
I hardly claim to speak for all men. Somebody mentioned the piece, and I will merely say that among the men I know in a few parishes, they do not relate to it. Perhaps some men tolerate it or even like it. Many women, as well as men, do not find it to be appropriate liturgical music.
I’m off this thread, as it has become a referendum on one piece of music, with challenges to those who point out a few characteristics of it.
Nevertheless, I apologize for offending you by using capital letters that come across as shouting. I will try not to do that in future posts.
And I did not mean to come across as “teaching you” and I apologize for offending you. There are plenty of people reading this thread who are not classical musicians.
And I beg of you and others to please try not to be so easily offended in discussions of liturgical music, and be too quick to get “off the thread.” This is part of the problem with the topic of Catholic liturgical music–I think we all need to stick with the discussions even when they become difficult for us.
I hope the OP has learned that when it comes to Mass music, there’s no pleasing everyone, and no matter what you do, someone will always be upset.
One person’s “prayerful” is another person’s “raucous.”
C
Captain_America
Guest
Good post.
As a man, I’d be intrigued by a men-only mass. Everything else around the church seems run and controlled by women. It can be a turn-off, especially the Competitive Socializing events.
Oh, and as a man, I feel a bit of anger and pain when I see men stereotyped as merely being sports spectators/fans or golfers or anti-intellectual. That’s nonsense, of course, but our society loves to turn maleness into boyish ****, or reduce men to fools.
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