C
clem456
Guest
hey that’s great…
- Status
Y
YoungTradCath
Guest
This is one of the best posts so far.
P
peace2u2
Guest
Courageous by Casting Crowns (written for our men - may God send His Holy Spirit with the gift of Courage)
youtube.com/watch?v=tI1LgfkF8J8
lyrics:
we were made to be courageous
we were made to lead the way
we could be the generation that finally breaks the chains
we were made to be courageous
we were made to be courageous
we were warriors on the front lines,
standing unafraid.
but now we’re watchers on the side lines,
while our families slip away.
where are you men of courage?
you were made for so much more.
let the pounding of our hearts cry,
we will serve the Lord.
we were made to be courageous,
and were taking back the fight.
we were made to be courageous,
and it starts with us tonight.
the only way we’ll ever stand,
is on our knees with lifted hands.
make us courageous,
Lord make us courageous.
this is our resolution, our answer to the call,
we will love our wives and children,
and refuse to let them fall.
we will reignite the passion,
that we buried deep inside.
may the watchers become warriors,
let the men of God arise.
Background:
seek justice, love mercy, walk humbly with your God
seek justice, love mercy, walk humbly with your God
Lead singer:
In the war of the mind i will make my stand,
in the battle of the heart, in the battle of the hands.
in the war of the mind i will make my stand,
in the battle of the heart, in the battle of the hands
G
George22
Guest
I believe that the way to “get men back to Mass” is by actively recruiting men to join or volunteer with traditionally male groups such as the Holy Name Society and Knights of Columbus.
Way back in “A Charlie Brown Christmas,” Lucy had it right. What Charlie Brown needed was involvement. Men need involvement. This requires every member of the parish, men and women, young and old, to invite men to participate, perhaps as an usher, Lector, or Eucharistic Minister. Whether by flipping pancakes at the Pancake Breakfast, or working on fund raisers for children with special needs, or helping out at the Parish Picnic; involvement makes the man feel needed. The priest can’t be the sole (pun allowed) recruiter for the parish clubs and ministries. In fact, the priest needs these groups now more than ever to be “Fishers of Men.”
What’s great about the Holy Name Society and K of C, is that they can provide the venue for bringing the men in. Whether it be a golf outing, a family night at the stadium, or a Super Bowl party in the church hall, there has to be a stepping stone on the way to the pew. A common interest fosters friendship; friendship yields camaraderie; camaraderie forms a brotherhood. When the time comes for Holy Name Sunday Corporate Communion, or the K of C Family Mass, we go to Mass together because this is what Brothers in Christ do. This is what Catholic Fathers do. Religion is a way of life, not a list of rules. We need to show men that it’s manly to worship God. In fact, it is the most manly thing a man can do.
Way back in “A Charlie Brown Christmas,” Lucy had it right. What Charlie Brown needed was involvement. Men need involvement. This requires every member of the parish, men and women, young and old, to invite men to participate, perhaps as an usher, Lector, or Eucharistic Minister. Whether by flipping pancakes at the Pancake Breakfast, or working on fund raisers for children with special needs, or helping out at the Parish Picnic; involvement makes the man feel needed. The priest can’t be the sole (pun allowed) recruiter for the parish clubs and ministries. In fact, the priest needs these groups now more than ever to be “Fishers of Men.”
What’s great about the Holy Name Society and K of C, is that they can provide the venue for bringing the men in. Whether it be a golf outing, a family night at the stadium, or a Super Bowl party in the church hall, there has to be a stepping stone on the way to the pew. A common interest fosters friendship; friendship yields camaraderie; camaraderie forms a brotherhood. When the time comes for Holy Name Sunday Corporate Communion, or the K of C Family Mass, we go to Mass together because this is what Brothers in Christ do. This is what Catholic Fathers do. Religion is a way of life, not a list of rules. We need to show men that it’s manly to worship God. In fact, it is the most manly thing a man can do.
R
runjohnnyrun
Guest
Good song, good movie. I have it, and am reading Facing the Giants.
Where is the equivalent Catholic literature?
N
NovusAugustus
Guest
If you end up trying the basketball, let us know how it goes so we can talk to our pastors about it.
In addition, I have a few things that as a young man I would like to see:
–A pastor who tries to more actively involve men in the ministries
–I’m an altar boy and I think you will get the boys and men in general at your church more enthusiastic if they see lots of other boys and men getting involved in the liturgy
–Talk with the choir director and get him/her to mix up the flavor of the hymns a bit. As others have noted a lot of the music at my church and almost every other church I have attended is florid to the point of being annoying. I’m not sure of the cause of this, but there is a solution–older, stronger hymns with more powerful instruments like organs, trumpets, etc. instead of this willowy guitar and saxophone stuff.
In general, I think men get enthused by a spirit of cooperation, inclusion, camaraderie, etc. If men see other men having a good time reading, ushering, altar-serving, etc. they will join because they want to be part of that group and be perceived in a leading manner. You don’t have to discourage women, but men, I think, enjoy espirit de corps–see the military and sports for examples. If you can incorporate those feelings into church life you will be golden.
N
NovusAugustus
Guest
Ever heard “Lord of the Dance”? That is an effeminate hymn if I ever heard one. In addition, there are feminine ways of singing hymns, like with guitars and fluttery-styled piano playing.
But like I have said, the problem isn’t effeminate hymns, the problem is a lack of masculine hymns to balance things out. Give us more O Come All Ye Faithful and less Gather Us In.
F
fastenatingguy
Guest
We recently sold my deceased mother’s home and in the process came across old photo albums from the 1920’s to the 1970’s.Whether its video games, history and law discussions or BBQ its really about giving men a connection to the Church. Too many men feel that church artivities are primarily geared to the needs of women so giving men opportunites for things they enjoy can only help. You can’t get them through the door without them first stepping on the porch. Use things like this to get them to the porch and after a while they might poke their head through the door.
Common theme: Church = Community; just about every picture had something to do with the Church, the School, etc.
Find anything (sports, lectures, etc) to get men involved in their Church. There are 168 hours in a week. We need to be Catholics all the time, not just on Sunday, not just at mass.
S
Sarabande
Guest
Is there anything we can do to stop calling these hymns as feminine/effeminate or masculine? The way they are being used to negatively describe these hymns is a little insulting, as if all women are into that style of music. As a woman who has very little love for those kinds of hymns and speaking for many other women who feel the same, it’s a bit condescending to women. I personally find most of them sappy and saccharine and mediocre, and I don’t associate those adjectives with feminity, as I believe most of us here, man or woman, would agree. True feminity is beautiful… not sappy or saccharine or mediocre.
F
fastenatingguy
Guest
In my experience there is one mass each Sunday that is dominated by men: 6:45am. However, it is my least favorite to attend because there is no music whatsoever. It is fast, maybe 30-35 minutes instead of 60-70 minutes (we have an enormous parish).
It’s probably 5:1 men to women, nor are there many young people. It is known this time of year as the “golfer’s mass” but even during winter, it’s about the same ratio. The same faces, just getting a little older.
My situation is different than most. My wife stopped attending mass about eight years ago. Sadly, our 26 year old daughter who lives in New York does not either–but that is another thread. I am blessed that my 17 year old son attends and goes to monthly confession too.
It’s probably 5:1 men to women, nor are there many young people. It is known this time of year as the “golfer’s mass” but even during winter, it’s about the same ratio. The same faces, just getting a little older.
My situation is different than most. My wife stopped attending mass about eight years ago. Sadly, our 26 year old daughter who lives in New York does not either–but that is another thread. I am blessed that my 17 year old son attends and goes to monthly confession too.
J
jmcrae
Guest
I’m with you - feminine is tough in a different way than masculine, and shouldn’t be synonymous with weakness or inferiority.
F
FrStevenJones
Guest
According to dictionary.com " effeminate" is an adjective describing a man or boy who has feminine delicacy and womanly traits. So the term is not disrespectful to femininity per se. Rather it is a reference to an displacement of traditionally feminine characteristics onto a man.
Dictionary.com also offers a 2nd definition that “effeminate” may be characterized by excessive softness, delicacy, self-indulgence, etc.; effeminate luxury. Those are clearly not feminine traits, many women are much tougher than men, and women are frequently more “other-focused” and less self indulgent then men. So for the male to become effeminate means to take on those undesirable “effeminate” qualities, which would seem to be inappropriate for either a woman or a man.
The quality of effeminacy is thus distinct from feminity. Effeminacy has a disordered quality about it, while feminity does not.
E
Elizabeth502
Guest
Definitely.
Z
zab
Guest
I know a man who could be described as “effeminate” who is happily married heterosexual man with many children. He does not “take on” those qualities. That is just how he is. In fact I have met a few heterosexual effeminate men in my lifetime who do not exaggerate. So I guess they would fit into Definition no.1. When I see someone who is exaggerating femininity the word that comes to my mind is flamboyant.
E
Elizabeth502
Guest
Thank you, zab, for indirectly correcting me, and reminding me that I, too, have met several men who fit the description you just gave. Those men are not “affecting” anything, of course. They just are, naturally, who they are, and they should be appreciated for their individuality. (I can think immediately of at least two heterosexual, happily married men who exactly fit that description.)
I actually have mentioned that variation on other CAF threads, but in this case I was focused on Father’s specific above post.
S
Sarabande
Guest
The problem I had was that the term was constantly being used as a derogatory description of awful hymns. I don’t think people using the term meant it that way, but it gave the implication that music which is often sappy, saccharine and mediocre would even be described as effeminate or feminine. (Firstly, there is really no such thing as feminine and masculine music if you look at it from a purely musical point-of-view, but that actually doesn’t bother me, especially if someone wants to describe two equally well-composed compositions as such.) But to describe what people consider “good” music as masculine and what they consider “bad” music as feminine/effeminate (the two terms have been used interchangeably here on CAF) is where the problem lies.
Also, I do know very masculine, straight men who actually like these hymns. There is nothing effeminate about them. They just like the music for whatever reason and although I think the music is downright horrible, I wouldn’t think their liking for it is “disordered”.
I usually don’t get my corsette strings too uptight about these things, but seeing feminine/effeminate constantly on one thread or on other threads used as a derogatory description of a certain style of music was a little frustrating.
F
FrStevenJones
Guest
It is correct that the terms should not be confused. Feminity and effeminacy are distinct ideas. Feminity should be exalted, as should masculinity. We need both in our lives!
Yet, I do believe that “effeminate music” is a legitimate category and is not appropriate for Mass. Most males and females are not drawn to effeminacy. Feel free to disagree
Please let’s be clear that the term “effeminacy” is not a put down of femininity. Please see the dictionary.com definition, above.
C
Cat
Guest
I personally think that hymns should never be described with adjectives unless the disclaimer is added: “This is my personal opinion.”
In my personal opinion, Lord of the Dance is a very strong, masculine hymn. The tune is found in Copland’s Appalachian Suite, and was written based on American mountain folk music–hardly an “effeminate” or “saccharine” environment. On the contrary, life in the Appalachians was a daily struggle for survival.
The words to the hymn are poetic, very strong and thought-provoking. Hopefully poetry and poetic imagery isn’t considered “effeminate,” or Shakespeare is surely out the window.
And although dance in the U.S. has somehow managed to acquire a reputation of “gay” or “sissy stuff”, this is not the case in the rest of the world! This is a personal bone of contention with me, as we know thousands of figure skating females who would love to compete in ice dancing (and smaller females who would like to compete in pairs skating), but because so many men and women in the U.S. perceive anything “dance” as “gay” or “unmasculine” or “sissy stuff,” we don’t get males in the sport.
Ballet is the same way. Other than in the cities where there is a large theatrical industry, very few boys are enrolled in ballet or dance classes by their parents, who cite “fear of gayness” as the main reason (at least privately–they would never say this in public these days).
It’s ridiculous and wrong, and Catholics of all people should fight against the wrong stereotype of “dance” as “un-masculine.” Dance has always been done by strong, virile men, and a hymn using dance as imagery is totally masculine, in my opinion.
Would it be less “effeminate” is we re-wrote the hymn as “Lord of the NASCAR”?
Let’s THINK, and be careful to make it clear when something is just our personal opinion.
In my personal opinion, Lord of the Dance is a very strong, masculine hymn. The tune is found in Copland’s Appalachian Suite, and was written based on American mountain folk music–hardly an “effeminate” or “saccharine” environment. On the contrary, life in the Appalachians was a daily struggle for survival.
The words to the hymn are poetic, very strong and thought-provoking. Hopefully poetry and poetic imagery isn’t considered “effeminate,” or Shakespeare is surely out the window.
And although dance in the U.S. has somehow managed to acquire a reputation of “gay” or “sissy stuff”, this is not the case in the rest of the world! This is a personal bone of contention with me, as we know thousands of figure skating females who would love to compete in ice dancing (and smaller females who would like to compete in pairs skating), but because so many men and women in the U.S. perceive anything “dance” as “gay” or “unmasculine” or “sissy stuff,” we don’t get males in the sport.
Ballet is the same way. Other than in the cities where there is a large theatrical industry, very few boys are enrolled in ballet or dance classes by their parents, who cite “fear of gayness” as the main reason (at least privately–they would never say this in public these days).
It’s ridiculous and wrong, and Catholics of all people should fight against the wrong stereotype of “dance” as “un-masculine.” Dance has always been done by strong, virile men, and a hymn using dance as imagery is totally masculine, in my opinion.
Would it be less “effeminate” is we re-wrote the hymn as “Lord of the NASCAR”?
Let’s THINK, and be careful to make it clear when something is just our personal opinion.
J
josh987654321
Guest
I’m surprised at the amount of Catholics who rarely attend mass, I think it’s because they don’t know what they are missing, they can’t see.
These short books have really opened my eye’s. By sharing them it will help others open their eye’s as well. They have deepened me in the Catholic faith in enormous ways, in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Please read these short books (they range from about 20-40 pages each), especially the ones in bold about the mass.
Books on the Eucharist
The Holy Mass - loveandmercy.org/Eng-HM-Reg.pdf
Holy Hour - loveandmercy.org/Eng-HH-Reg.pdf
In Adoration - loveandmercy.org/Eng-IA-Reg.pdf
Books on Spiritual Testimonies & Devotions
Divine Providence - loveandmercy.org/Eng-DP-Reg.pdf
My Broken Christ Walks Over the Waters - loveandmercy.org/Eng-MBC-Reg.pdf
Praying the Rosary - loveandmercy.org/Eng-PR-Reg.pdf
The Visible Face of the Invisible God - loveandmercy.org/Eng-VF-Reg.pdf
Books on the Passion
The Passion - loveandmercy.org/Eng-TP-Reg.pdf
The Stations of The Cross - loveandmercy.org/Eng-SOC-Reg.pdf
From Sinai to Calvary - loveandmercy.org/Eng-FSC-Reg.pdf
I Have Given My Life for You - loveandmercy.org/Eng-IHG-Reg.pdf
For more, please go here FrStevenJones - youshallbelieve.com/
It is all free, online.
God Bless You
Thank you for reading
Josh
E
Elizabeth502
Guest
Sure, and Amen, sister, as far as dance, generically, having many masculilne dimensions, including strength and vigor. However, 3 things:
~ the portion adapted from Copland probably does not convey what you and I understand about the Copland piece, since probably both of us have heard the whole piece
~ the strength & vigor of the Copland piece is best expressed orchestrally, not with one or 2 instruments and in chorale
~ the lyrics are abstract, romantic, vague, and have very little real-world context or even Catholic context.
The latter would be very important to men.
Also, yes, I understand about the personal opinion part, but liturgical music is best selected both for its authenticity and for its appeal to a majority of Catholics. The point of this thread is to discuss ‘getting men back to Mass.’ If music is one of the obstacles, then disregarding one half of the human race (when it comes to communicating through music) seems a poor strategy.
- Status