Girl or Guy?

[xyneshia]

I do think that her argument holds any water. God uses boys to make men and girls to make women. Your friends friend deserves our prayers but not affirmations.

 

[aspawloski4th]

slow down for a second…

No I was pointing out the “perceived arrogance” in your previous statement. You don’t interact with people with beliefs like mine. People like me are disregarded by you and are of little value to you because we hold beliefs that are different than your, right? See the point being made?

Are your opinions really the only ones that matter in a discussion? Why are you discounting mine?

You then go on to suggest that people like me somehow contribute to you not getting anything out of Mass besides meeting your obligation. That responsible is yours my friend no matter what I say or think.

This where Im seaking only for me. I actually have friends with all kinds of different bliefs from mine. I’m tired of a few different things here. Those who generally cannot agree to disagree, those who poo poo anything science(which Im surrounded by in my real life envirment), and those who make fun of people like me. I am very intellectual ,which goes very much against the grain of the blue collar " Joe SixPack" envirment which I am surrounded by in real life. You asked if I was coming from opinion or absolute truth, whci when I read between the lines tells me you are presuming me to have just a mere opinion. That "opinion " of mine is based on personal experience and a 1/3rd of a century of personal study.A couple posts ago it sounded like you were making fun of tg’s. with you taslking about paupers and the rich, etc. While I can be light hearted and even a jokester in a lot of areas of life, I take the gender issues very seriously. It’s hhard to make light of 30+ years of termoil.

 

[aspawloski4th]

I do think that her argument holds any water. God uses boys to make men and girls to make women. Your friends friend deserves our prayers but not affirmations.

Walk a mile in the friend’s shoes and see if you keep the same tune.

 

[xyneshia]

Walk a mile in the friend’s shoes and see if you keep the same tune.

I’m not the smartest person in the world so forgive me but, my own feelings don’t change what is right or wrong. If I became mentally ill (walking a mile in this persons shoes) and wanted to become a man, it would in NO WAY change the fact that God makes men out of boys and women out of girls. And I mean no dispresect to people who suffer this way. I really meant that this poor soul deserves our prayers. I imagine his life is painful and he obviously needs some sort of help. As a woman if I suddenly (or even gradually) started to feel like I was male I would seek out a psychologist and get the medical help I would need. To use your own terminology, yes I would keep the same tune.

 

[aspawloski4th]

I’m not the smartest person in the world so forgive me but, my own feelings don’t change what is right or wrong. If I became mentally ill (walking a mile in this persons shoes) and wanted to become a man, it would in NO WAY change the fact that God makes men out of boys and women out of girls. And I mean no dispresect to people who suffer this way. I really meant that this poor soul deserves our prayers. I imagine his life is painful and he obviously needs some sort of help. As a woman if I suddenly (or even gradually) started to feel like I was male I would seek out a psychologist and get the medical help I would need. To use your own terminology, yes I would keep the same tune.

Ye needs to read more science. female brains can occur in male bodies. Nature makes mistakes with the himan body all the time. Albinoism. ambiguous sex characteristics, brain stem only births. Im not about to blame that on God, so I dont blame nature developing the incorrect sex for what soul is in a particuler person either.

 

[Charles_22]

In aspawloski4th’s case he hasn’t stopped attending Mass, but he seems to be on the road I’ve seen so many times. My brother, for example, doesn’t want to understand how I could not attend his “wedding” to a divorcee, whome they had made no prior arrangements, and are unlikely to, to regularize it. One of his retorts was “when the priests stop molesting the children then I will listen to what they say”. The silliniess of that of course, is that I wouldn’t think it would ever stop altogether, as indeed public schools have a much worse problem with that, but nonetheless, it’s not that he won’t listen to the Church because of that issue. I know that, because he probably hasn’t attended Mass in at least 20 years. So what kept him from doing so before the scandals broke out? Nothing, he just didn’t go (he was a former altar boy too, so he knew better in how things worked at his school anyway). So what the scandal in reality is for him, is just another excuse, piled on top of all the others, not to do his catholic duty. He’s had years of other excuses, and this is just the latest flashpoint way of saying he’s not interested.

 

[aspawloski4th]

In aspawloski4th’s case he hasn’t stopped attending Mass, but he seems to be on the road I’ve seen so many times. My brother, for example, doesn’t want to understand how I could not attend his “wedding” to a divorcee, whome they had made no prior arrangements, and are unlikely to, to regularize it. One of his retorts was “when the priests stop molesting the children then I will listen to what they say”. The silliniess of that of course, is that I wouldn’t think it would ever stop altogether, as indeed public schools have a much worse problem with that, but nonetheless, it’s not that he won’t listen to the Church because of that issue. I know that, because he probably hasn’t attended Mass in at least 20 years. So what kept him from doing so before the scandals broke out? Nothing, he just didn’t go (he was a former altar boy too, so he knew better in how things worked at his school anyway). So what the scandal in reality is for him, is just another excuse, piled on top of all the others, not to do his catholic duty. He’s had years of other excuses, and this is just the latest flashpoint way of saying he’s not interested.

I have no plans to stop attendiing Mass. Im there to wrship God first and formost, that is the pourpose of Mass. But I have no need for those who think they can run my life for me. Please don’t think you have me pinned down, Through this thread all you know is my thoughts on transgender isssues and not the rest of me. you might be surprised at my posts in recent right to life threads and one about global warming. Yes I am right to life and don’t believe there is glabal warming. Surprized?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

As a phenomenon, the Church should always denounce the concept of sex change operations to satisfy the disordered promptings within any given individual. As far as dealing with individual people, I wonder if the Church’s practice regarding another area might be clue as to what we should do? The Catholic Church does not recognize the validity of the orders of the Anglican Communion, ie, we do not believe that their bishops, priests, and deacons are validly ordained, their bishops have no legitimate claim to apostolic succession, they cannot confect the Holy Sacrifice, etc. Yet we still accord them the courtesy of the titles they claim. The Holy Father does not refer to the Archbishop of Canterbury as the “Archlayman of Canterbury,” though in truth, that is what the man is. Our hierarchy addresses their heirarchy with courtesy and respect by calling them what they wish to be called, though the Anglicans are fully aware that we believe as we do regarding their orders Perhaps we should do the same with “transgendered” people. Just think out loud.

 

[Dale_M]

As a woman if I suddenly (or even gradually) started to feel like I was male I would seek out a psychologist and get the medical help I would need.

And rightly so. But you may not be aware that transsexuals have struggled with gender identity their whole life. Almost all mention that they realized they had the wrong body when they were ages 3-8. The feeling of being transsexual is not a whim or a recent development for them. When an adult decides to change their sex, it has been the result of a long-fought, long-thought, struggle. And yes, during the course of this struggle, they would naturally seek the help of a psychologist and medical doctor. Changing one’s sex is a last resort.

 

[Charles_22]

I have no plans to stop attendiing Mass. Im there to wrship God first and formost, that is the pourpose of Mass. But I have no need for those who think they can run my life for me. Please don’t think you have me pinned down, Through this thread all you know is my thoughts on transgender isssues and not the rest of me. you might be surprised at my posts in recent right to life threads and one about global warming. Yes I am right to life and don’t believe there is glabal warming. Surprized?

Perhaps if you had read between the lines better, you would had detected the basic flow, that if you are departing in one manner, it’s usually quite comon for ALL of us to start departing on others as well. A lot of excuses people make for themselves, just like the ones of my brother’s, really have no foundation, as they’re just something they say to get people off their back.

Yes, I was starting to suspect that you might had been little more than a liberal agitator of some stripe, and you didn’t respond this time as I suspected a person meeting that description would. I’m not really interested in pinning you down, but if I have to talk to you I want to make sure as best I can what I’m dealing with. Trying to get people to call you by the sex you wish to be, rates extremely high on the agitator list for me, but if that’s all you got and you don’t wax till eternity on this board about it, I’m sure I will all but forget about it in my own case.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Perhaps if you had read between the lines better, you would had detected the basic flow, that if you are departing in one manner, it’s usually quite comon for ALL of us to start departing on others as well. A lot of excuses people make for themselves, just like the ones of my brother’s, really have no foundation, as they’re just something they say to get people off their back.

Yes, I was starting to suspect that you might had been little more than a liberal agitator of some stripe, and you didn’t respond this time as I suspected a person meeting that description would. I’m not really interested in pinning you down, but if I have to talk to you I want to make sure as best I can what I’m dealing with. Trying to get people to call you by the sex you wish to be, rates extremely high on the agitator list for me, but if that’s all you got and you don’t wax till eternity on this board about it, I’m sure I will all but forget about it in my own case.

If that agitates you I do feel a bit sorry for you. Quite frankly I should be able to be called what I want, gender aside or gender not aside.

 

[Charles_22]

As a phenomenon, the Church should always denounce the concept of sex change operations to satisfy the disordered promptings within any given individual. As far as dealing with individual people, I wonder if the Church’s practice regarding another area might be clue as to what we should do? The Catholic Church does not recognize the validity of the orders of the Anglican Communion, ie, we do not believe that their bishops, priests, and deacons are validly ordained, their bishops have no legitimate claim to apostolic succession, they cannot confect the Holy Sacrifice, etc. Yet we still accord them the courtesy of the titles they claim. The Holy Father does not refer to the Archbishop of Canterbury as the “Archlayman of Canterbury,” though in truth, that is what the man is. Our hierarchy addresses their heirarchy with courtesy and respect by calling them what they wish to be called, though the Anglicans are fully aware that we believe as we do regarding their orders Perhaps we should do the same with “transgendered” people. Just think out loud.

The archbishoop, is in fact, the archbishop of “that” church, so the Pope calling him that doesn’t compromise catholicism in the least. Only if the anglicans were almost entirely converted back over, with anglicanism being almost in total shambles, could the Pope calling him such a title possibly be without reason. Very many of the anglican clergy have in fact never been catholic, so there never will be doubts as to whether they’re properly ordained (unlike in the anglican church’s beginnings) such that reserving the title would be reasonable. It’s only when calling him by that title crosses over into it possibly be mistaken as him being part of catholicism that it’s reasonable to not call him that. That’s something quite removed from somebody in fact admitting they are one thing, and then insisting they be called another. It’s an even greater illusion than for a priest to go around wishing to be called an archbishop by everyone. There is such a thing as somebody wishing to be called something which is quite unreasonable.

 

[Charles_22]

If that agitates you I do feel a bit sorry for you. Quite frankly I should be able to be called what I want, gender aside or gender not aside.

I didn’t say it agitates me, though it does. What I was trying to say that I was afraid “you” were an agitator, in other words, you were trying to agitate; to try to force people to call you by whatever you wished, for example. If you are indeed an agitator, there are more avenues open to you, and you didn’t take the immediate one I thought you would, but then. perhaps, that’s not your purpose. I hope you don’t prove yourself to be an agitator about this one issue anyway.

 

[jemfinch]

Sex change surgery cannot change one’s chromosomal makeup.
You’re still either an XX or an XY.

It’s not as simple as that, though. There are biological males who are XX and biological females who are XY. It really has to do with activation of the SRY gene.

Personally, I refer to people how they wish to be referred to. I refer to certain Protestant churches as “Churches of Christ” even though I don’t believe they are the Church of Christ. I refer to certain Protestant churches as “non-denominational” even though I believe they constitute a denomination in every important sense. Heck, I use the term “church” of quite a few ecclesial communities which don’t properly deserve the term, because they have failed to preserve the apostolic succession. I likewise expect to be called “Catholic” and for my Church to be called the “Catholic Church” even though I know many people I talk to don’t really believe that my Church is the universal Catholic Church.

On the same principle, if a transgendered or transsexual person wants me to use feminine pronouns to refer to him or her, I’m willing to do so. The issue (and the sin) lies with them for bearing false witness, not with me for being respectful and facilitating communication.

Jeremy

 

[xyneshia]

aspawloski4th,
It seems that you are taking things here personally, you really shouldn’t. Nobody is trying to attack you. The OP doesn’t mention anything about this man have ambiguous genitals. Corrective surgery in such a case would be different. And while I respect everyones opinion here, I don’t believe that a mans soul can end up in a womans body or vise versa. I believe that these people suffer mental illness and need treatment to correct it. However, with how accepting our culture is of this particular disorder (out of compassion I am sure) people, it seems, are more likely to simply dress like and associate themselves with the opposite gender rather than seek medical care. Please understand that I say that with all possible charity, I have nothing against these people and truly feel for them.

 

[aspawloski4th]

I didn’t say it agitates me, though it does. What I was trying to say that I was afraid “you” were an agitator, in other words, you were trying to agitate; to try to force people to call you by whatever you wished, for example. If you are indeed an agitator, there are more avenues open to you, and you didn’t take the immediate one I thought you would, but then. perhaps, that’s not your purpose. I hope you don’t prove yourself to be an agitator about this one issue anyway.

Nope Im not an agitator. Although to be honest I dont worry about whether Im doing that or not. I just am a very independent and off the beaten path thinker. Not affriad to say what I think, as well as hear what others think.

 

[aspawloski4th]

aspawloski4th,
It seems that you are taking things here personally, you really shouldn’t. Nobody is trying to attack you. The OP doesn’t mention anything about this man have ambiguous genitals. Corrective surgery in such a case would be different. And while I respect everyones opinion here, I don’t believe that a mans soul can end up in a womans body or vise versa. I believe that these people suffer mental illness and need treatment to correct it. However, with how accepting our culture is of this particular disorder (out of compassion I am sure) people, it seems, are more likely to simply dress like and associate themselves with the opposite gender rather than seek medical care. Please understand that I say that with all possible charity, I have nothing against these people and truly feel for them.

While I trust you are trying to be charitable. Keep in mind as a teased, picked on, and beaten up on child, I don’t find it hard to get in the defensive mode.With all I have read on this subject over a 1/3 of a century, with all the evidence Ive seen personally I’m totally confident that I stand in the right on this one. For me to take your side I’d have to deny what Iv’e seen with my own eyes, and my eyes work just fine mind you. You mention the seeking of medical care for what we are debating, contrary to what you think that medical care is not going cure it. Over the years there have been many cases where somone trys to cure it just to have the patient attempt suicide. There is a reguler poster in CAF who is just what I described. Eventaully Im going to transition my life to what I am inside, when I a get out of near poverty. When I do transition if Im not accepted where I am, or at least given the live anbd let live treatment, I ll go where I can be me.

 

[xyneshia]

While I trust you are trying to be charitable. Keep in mind as a teased, picked on, and beaten up on child, I don’t find it hard to get in the defensive mode.With all I have read on this subject over a 1/3 of a century, with all the evidence Ive seen personally I’m totally confident that I stand in the right on this one. For me to take your side I’d have to deny what Iv’e seen with my own eyes, and my eyes work just fine mind you. You mention the seeking of medical care for what we are debating, contrary to what you think that medical care is not going cure it. Over the years there have been many cases where somone trys to cure it just to have the patient attempt suicide. There is a reguler poster in CAF who is just what I described. Eventaully Im going to transition my life to what I am inside, when I a get out of near poverty. When I do transition if Im not accepted where I am, or at least given the live anbd let live treatment, I ll go where I can be me.

Hello,
I do not mean to say that this can be cured, or that all people can be cured. Certainly there are many illnesses that plague mankind for which we do not have a cure. My own son has autism, there is no cure. That is very hard for me to deal with. He will never be normal. Nobody can change that. I certainly do not hold it against him and likewise I do not hold against people with gender identity crisis’s their illness either. And I do apologize if the word illness offends you, I just cannot think of a better term. Just like my little boy will never be “normal” no man can ever be a woman. Now with a lot of time I can teach my son not to stim and make eye contact so that he will **look **“normal” (i dont like that word normal btw) but he will always be autistic. Likewise a man can put on a dress, grow his hair long and take progesterone to soften his voice, reduce his muscle mass and grow breasts–but he is still a man. I do respect your opinion btw. And I certainly hope you never despair to the point of suicide. I cannot imagine how bad someone must hurt to want to take their own life. Also I do hope you break the cycle of poverty. I have been there myself and do not wish it on anyone. I do sincerley wish you nothing but the best with whatever transition you are working through. No matter what it is you do not deserve to be abandoned by your family and your friends.

 

[Mirdath]

xyneshia, you are correct that Steph is taking things a bit personally. But it’s pretty understandable, really: she is one of four, maybe five, transgendered/transsexual or intersexed Catholic posters on this board, currently one of the most active, and under pretty heavy fire for daring to be both a faithful Catholic and a sufferer of gender dysphoria, in this and other threads. Taking a breather might be advisable, were it not that the people punking on her would probably take it as capitulation, but it’s nothing to be ashamed of.

I, on the other hand – I have every right to take this thread personally. I’ve been following it since it first popped up and I was still lurking unregistered, and have been reading it closely since it returned from the grave. It is quite specifically about me, and about a dear friend with whom I was romantically involved at the time. The Angelus happens to be my sister, and another member of my family also posted in this thread during its first run.

The details in the story have been changed somewhat from the actual facts. Both I and the other person mentioned in the OP are transgendered. This thread was made when I was making some first, tentative steps toward being honest with my family – given that you read the OP I’m sure you can guess how that turned out. In the intervening years, not much has changed except that they’ve realized I do not jump anymore when they say ‘boo’.

As for the attitudes of tg/ts and is people toward psychiatric care, I think you will find you are mistaken. Yes, there are those who do not seek medical help, for a variety of reasons from fear (which kept me from doing so for a long time) to poverty (which hasn’t helped either). But the medical establishment is heavily involved in all steps of the way, from therapy and counseling to hormone replacement to actual surgical procedures. To get one’s identification relabeled – where it’s even possible – requires a psychiatrist’s approval. Sure, visual and social identification with one’s actual gender is incredibly important to a lot of people; after growing up being treated as the wrong one (or living longer in the same way), I don’t see how that’d be at all unexpected.

Nor is society nearly as accepting as you seem to think. The primary cause of death for transpeople is still murder last I looked; we have a much harder time finding and keeping jobs (I’ve joked with therapists that the best bet is in the three Ps – porn, prostitution, and programming – it is not a very funny joke, even though I’m fortunate enough to be in the third field ); our families often refuse to accept us for who we are; society in general looks at those of us who can’t pass perfectly as freaks; our very existence is seen entirely too often as an invitation to physical and sexual assault. Despair drives us to depression, anxiety, substance abuse, suicide attempts – I’ve been there, done all that, and have the t-shirt. You say we’re accepted out of compassion – what strange kind of acceptance and compassion is this? I appreciate your charity, but I deeply regret your naivete.

Given the current tone of much of this thread I expect this to be so many wasted words, for the most part; but if it inspires just one person toward greater compassion and understanding I will consider it a worthwhile effort. Besides – the OP needed closure, and out of all people I’m the only one left to provide it

 

[xyneshia]

xyneshia, you are correct that Steph is taking things a bit personally. But it’s pretty understandable, really: she is one of four, maybe five, transgendered/transsexual or intersexed Catholic posters on this board, currently one of the most active, and under pretty heavy fire for daring to be both a faithful Catholic and a sufferer of gender dysphoria, in this and other threads. Taking a breather might be advisable, were it not that the people punking on her would probably take it as capitulation, but it’s nothing to be ashamed of.

I, on the other hand – I have every right to take this thread personally. I’ve been following it since it first popped up and I was still lurking unregistered, and have been reading it closely since it returned from the grave. It is quite specifically about me, and about a dear friend with whom I was romantically involved at the time. The Angelus happens to be my sister, and another member of my family also posted in this thread during its first run.

The details in the story have been changed somewhat from the actual facts. Both I and the other person mentioned in the OP are transgendered. This thread was made when I was making some first, tentative steps toward being honest with my family – given that you read the OP I’m sure you can guess how that turned out. In the intervening years, not much has changed except that they’ve realized I do not jump anymore when they say ‘boo’.

As for the attitudes of tg/ts and is people toward psychiatric care, I think you will find you are mistaken. Yes, there are those who do not seek medical help, for a variety of reasons from fear (which kept me from doing so for a long time) to poverty (which hasn’t helped either). But the medical establishment is heavily involved in all steps of the way, from therapy and counseling to hormone replacement to actual surgical procedures. To get one’s identification relabeled – where it’s even possible – requires a psychiatrist’s approval. Sure, visual and social identification with one’s actual gender is incredibly important to a lot of people; after growing up being treated as the wrong one (or living longer in the same way), I don’t see how that’d be at all unexpected.

Nor is society nearly as accepting as you seem to think. The primary cause of death for transpeople is still murder last I looked; we have a much harder time finding and keeping jobs (I’ve joked with therapists that the best bet is in the three Ps – porn, prostitution, and programming – it is not a very funny joke, even though I’m fortunate enough to be in the third field ); our families often refuse to accept us for who we are; society in general looks at those of us who can’t pass perfectly as freaks; our very existence is seen entirely too often as an invitation to physical and sexual assault. Despair drives us to depression, anxiety, substance abuse, suicide attempts – I’ve been there, done all that, and have the t-shirt. You say we’re accepted out of compassion – what strange kind of acceptance and compassion is this? I appreciate your charity, but I deeply regret your naivete.

Given the current tone of much of this thread I expect this to be so many wasted words, for the most part; but if it inspires just one person toward greater compassion and understanding I will consider it a worthwhile effort. Besides – the OP needed closure, and out of all people I’m the only one left to provide it

Maybe culture is vastly different between where you and I live but nobody I know is prejudice against tg people.(granted I dont know everyone) Murder is also the leading cause of death among pregnant women, last time I checked. My mayor is a man who dresses like a woman. He’s a good guy. I am a small town girl. I am glad that medical care is involved in the process. Nobody in your family should be treating you like a freak. Actually people in society should not either, it’s none of their business who or what you are. Some people’s lack of campassion is apalling. I certainly hope I did not say anything to make you feel like a freak – my intenetion is only to express my view – not to hurt anyone, ever. I gotta say knowing that this post was about another person on CAF and given the sensitive nature of the post, I am a little concerned about the fact that it was posted here. I doubt that I will change my opinion but I will meditate on the info that you and Steph have given me. At the least I will better appreciate the struggles of people in your situation.