Girl or Guy?

  • Thread starter Thread starter The_Angelus
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Maybe culture is vastly different between where you and I live but nobody I know is prejudice against tg people.(granted I dont know everyone) Murder is also the leading cause of death among pregnant women, last time I checked. My mayor is a man who dresses like a woman. He’s a good guy. I am a small town girl. I am glad that medical care is involved in the process. Nobody in your family should be treating you like a freak. Actually people in society should not either, it’s none of their business who or what you are. Some people’s lack of campassion is apalling. I certainly hope I did not say anything to make you feel like a freak – my intenetion is only to express my view – not to hurt anyone, ever. I gotta say knowing that this post was about another person on CAF and given the sensitive nature of the post, I am a little concerned about the fact that it was posted here. I doubt that I will change my opinion but I will meditate on the info that you and Steph have given me. At the least I will better appreciate the struggles of people in your situation.
You’re in Oregon, I see – that’s probably a good part of why you don’t see a whole lot. It’s definitely one of the more socially open states in the union. I grew up in Florida, which is definitely not. Michigan is a much better state to look different from what people expect a man or woman to look like, at least in the southeastern part (I really feel for Steph, who’s in Grand Rapids :eek: ), but it’s nowhere near as accepting and safe as I’m told the left coast and northeast are.

My sister did not know I was occasionally reading CAF when she posted this. Perhaps that’s a little food for thought for the many, many, many people here who post such intimate details about the personal lives of their friends and family members, no? 🙂
 
xyneshia, you are correct that Steph is taking things a bit personally. But it’s pretty understandable, really: she is one of four, maybe five, transgendered/transsexual or intersexed Catholic posters on this board, currently one of the most active, and under pretty heavy fire for daring to be both a faithful Catholic and a sufferer of gender dysphoria, in this and other threads. Taking a breather might be advisable, were it not that the people punking on her would probably take it as capitulation, but it’s nothing to be ashamed of.

I, on the other hand – I have every right to take this thread personally. I’ve been following it since it first popped up and I was still lurking unregistered, and have been reading it closely since it returned from the grave. It is quite specifically about me, and about a dear friend with whom I was romantically involved at the time. The Angelus happens to be my sister, and another member of my family also posted in this thread during its first run.

The details in the story have been changed somewhat from the actual facts. Both I and the other person mentioned in the OP are transgendered. This thread was made when I was making some first, tentative steps toward being honest with my family – given that you read the OP I’m sure you can guess how that turned out. In the intervening years, not much has changed except that they’ve realized I do not jump anymore when they say ‘boo’.

As for the attitudes of tg/ts and is people toward psychiatric care, I think you will find you are mistaken. Yes, there are those who do not seek medical help, for a variety of reasons from fear (which kept me from doing so for a long time) to poverty (which hasn’t helped either). But the medical establishment is heavily involved in all steps of the way, from therapy and counseling to hormone replacement to actual surgical procedures. To get one’s identification relabeled – where it’s even possible – requires a psychiatrist’s approval. Sure, visual and social identification with one’s actual gender is incredibly important to a lot of people; after growing up being treated as the wrong one (or living longer in the same way), I don’t see how that’d be at all unexpected.

Nor is society nearly as accepting as you seem to think. The primary cause of death for transpeople is still murder last I looked; we have a much harder time finding and keeping jobs (I’ve joked with therapists that the best bet is in the three Ps – porn, prostitution, and programming – it is not a very funny joke, even though I’m fortunate enough to be in the third field 😦 ); our families often refuse to accept us for who we are; society in general looks at those of us who can’t pass perfectly as freaks; our very existence is seen entirely too often as an invitation to physical and sexual assault. Despair drives us to depression, anxiety, substance abuse, suicide attempts – I’ve been there, done all that, and have the t-shirt. You say we’re accepted out of compassion – what strange kind of acceptance and compassion is this? I appreciate your charity, but I deeply regret your naivete.

Given the current tone of much of this thread I expect this to be so many wasted words, for the most part; but if it inspires just one person toward greater compassion and understanding I will consider it a worthwhile effort. Besides – the OP needed closure, and out of all people I’m the only one left to provide it 😉
great post.
its a shame people cant realise the facts of the matter as you have explained in the 2nd and 3rd last paragraphs of that post and instead just think we are all just waiting for a call up to the next jerry springer episode.
as for the other poster ,yes illness is not a good term to use.physical disorder would be a better choice of words as that pretty much is what we have had the whole time.mental disorders arrive later due to societies ignorance and lack of compassion.
 
xyneshia, you are correct that Steph is taking things a bit personally. But it’s pretty understandable, really: she is one of four, maybe five, transgendered/transsexual or intersexed Catholic posters on this board, currently one of the most active, and under pretty heavy fire for daring to be both a faithful Catholic and a sufferer of gender dysphoria, in this and other threads. Taking a breather might be advisable, were it not that the people punking on her would probably take it as capitulation, but it’s nothing to be ashamed of.

I, on the other hand – I have every right to take this thread personally. I’ve been following it since it first popped up and I was still lurking unregistered, and have been reading it closely since it returned from the grave. It is quite specifically about me, and about a dear friend with whom I was romantically involved at the time. The Angelus happens to be my sister, and another member of my family also posted in this thread during its first run.

The details in the story have been changed somewhat from the actual facts. Both I and the other person mentioned in the OP are transgendered. This thread was made when I was making some first, tentative steps toward being honest with my family – given that you read the OP I’m sure you can guess how that turned out. In the intervening years, not much has changed except that they’ve realized I do not jump anymore when they say ‘boo’.

As for the attitudes of tg/ts and is people toward psychiatric care, I think you will find you are mistaken. Yes, there are those who do not seek medical help, for a variety of reasons from fear (which kept me from doing so for a long time) to poverty (which hasn’t helped either). But the medical establishment is heavily involved in all steps of the way, from therapy and counseling to hormone replacement to actual surgical procedures. To get one’s identification relabeled – where it’s even possible – requires a psychiatrist’s approval. Sure, visual and social identification with one’s actual gender is incredibly important to a lot of people; after growing up being treated as the wrong one (or living longer in the same way), I don’t see how that’d be at all unexpected.

Nor is society nearly as accepting as you seem to think. The primary cause of death for transpeople is still murder last I looked; we have a much harder time finding and keeping jobs (I’ve joked with therapists that the best bet is in the three Ps – porn, prostitution, and programming – it is not a very funny joke, even though I’m fortunate enough to be in the third field 😦 ); our families often refuse to accept us for who we are; society in general looks at those of us who can’t pass perfectly as freaks; our very existence is seen entirely too often as an invitation to physical and sexual assault. Despair drives us to depression, anxiety, substance abuse, suicide attempts – I’ve been there, done all that, and have the t-shirt. You say we’re accepted out of compassion – what strange kind of acceptance and compassion is this? I appreciate your charity, but I deeply regret your naivete.

Given the current tone of much of this thread I expect this to be so many wasted words, for the most part; but if it inspires just one person toward greater compassion and understanding I will consider it a worthwhile effort. Besides – the OP needed closure, and out of all people I’m the only one left to provide it 😉
Mirdath, you can add another to that list of TS posters. I also have “been there and done that” but I don’t have the T-shirt. Where do you get one?? :confused:
You pointed out a lot of things that the general public is not aware of re: medical etc.
I’m 66 years old. I’m a cradle catholic. My mom’s only sibling, her sister, was a nun. I had two sisters. One older and one younger. I went to catholic schools ans was a target from the early grades. Even for some of the nuns!! In grade school I was mostly alone because I didn’t like the boy’s “rough and tumble” play and I was not aloud to play with the girls.
I was a “boy”, a " young man" and that was it. Up until 5 years ago I kept trying to prove that i was a “man” to myself and society. I married, had two beautiful daughters and had a career. Nearly commited suicide early on and was very suicidal towards the end of my being a “man”. I believe that if it hadn’t been for my faith, I wouldn’t be here now.
I spent 4 years in counceling and had an extensive psychiatric exam with a doctor that had been in practice for many years and was curious about TS issues. I was his second TS patient and he concluded that I was not insane or mentally deranged in any form. In fact, he found me to be better adjusted than average , in every area of my life except for one. I was very distressed at what this was costing me. EVERY relationship I had was changing or had changed. I lost every thing that I had ever known…!!
At age 64 I found myself alone, trying to build a new life and build a new relationship with my daughters. The latter has been facilitated by my wife.
I’m one of the fortunate ones. I have a good job as a Flight attendant and I have a few very good friends. But most importantly, I have my faith.
 
Do you have absolute truth or could some of your opinions be just that, some of your opinions?
“Absolute truth” !? Who has that?? In the majority of the posts re: this is just a whim on our part or a “feeling” on our part, it is very obvious that people are expressing opinions. Opinions that the majority of society holds to be “truth” and re-inforced by Jerry Springer.
I’ll add 60+ years to aspawloski4th’s 30+ years.
I would not wish this (TS) on anyone. Although it would be poetic jutice.😃
We do not undertake this journey litely. ( See my previous post. ) And, we do not do it because we want to.
I don’t “feel like a woman”. I never did. However, it came to a point that if I was to continue living, I had to be living as a woman. That is my nature. Something I had denied all my life.
 
Bottom Line How are they going to answer God when they die?

When He says I created you one gender. Why did you change to the other?

I dont make mistakes.

ANTRIM
 
welp, chicas (and the one or two trans guys lurking around, I know you’re out there 😉 ), break’s over!

Antrim: your God may not make mistakes, but how can you deny that nature is imperfect? Have you never seen a congenital defect, physical or mental, before? Look up a few: cleft palates, Down’s, autism, thalidomide flippers. Try applying your attitude to those…
Antrim universalized:
Suck it up and don’t bother to look for ‘help’, or how are you going to answer to God when you die and he tells you ‘I meant you to be cripplingly ugly or mentally screwed up or unable to open jars’?
 
He is everybodys God not just mine.

We will all have to answer for what we did and did not do.

All I did was ask a question. I did not say anything else about anything except that God does not make mistakes.

It looks like I got somebody thinking and it is bothering them.

Only God knows the truth in these situations and that may be the reason the Church is silent on it and is leaving it up to Him.

Antrim
 
Antrim, the only thing you’ve got me thinking is ‘oh sweet zombie Darwin, this again?’. Haven’t you seen the hordes of other posts substantially identical to that one? There’s loads to discuss and even debate under the umbrella of gender variance and the ethicality of various responses, treatments, and what society has right or wrong about how it sees the issue, but all most people seem to want to talk about is what they think God thinks about turning genitalia inside-out. We get the message: lots and lots of Christians think anyone who makes them feel weird is nucking futs and damned to boot, and believe you me the sentiment is frequently returned. It’s a dead horse, let the poor thing lie in peace. Can we cover some new ground here, maybe?
 
He is everybodys God not just mine.

We will all have to answer for what we did and did not do.

All I did was ask a question. I did not say anything else about anything except that God does not make mistakes.

It looks like I got somebody thinking and it is bothering them.

Only God knows the truth in these situations and that may be the reason the Church is silent on it and is leaving it up to Him.

Antrim
First and formost the church right now is silent because it has a million and one things on it’s plate and just can’t get to everything at once. Believe it or not the church will study the issue forwords, backwards and sideways before coming out with something definative. I do agree does not make mistakes, but when nature takes over he still allows them to happen. If mistakes didn’t happen our hospitals wouldn’t be half as filled as they are. For your information it isn’t changing gender , it is changing sex. Sex is between the legs and gender is between the ears. Whats between the ears cant be changed, but isn’t always a match or congruent with whats between the legs. Iv’e lived with that for 41 years, I don’t intend to suffer through another 41.🤷
 
Well, now I have witnessed the hate that some of you have talked about.

ANTRIM, I tend to agree with you on this one as far as people should not change their gender and men should not adorn themselves as women. It is a sin.

What these people feel is that (please correct if I am wrong) is that they are correcting not changing their gender. So the man who is a woman in his mind is correcting his body to match what he is psychologically.

Now in a case where said person does not have ambiguous genitals, it is my opinion that the condition that needs to be corrected in probably mental and not physical. That said, ANTRIM, maybe be a little more kind to the tg people on CAF. I can only imagine how emotionally damaging it would be to really truly in my heart of hearts believe that I am a man and then look down at my breasts everyday (hope that wasnt too naughty to say her :eek: ). That is what these people go through every day of their life and I am sure that each of them has given their condition plenty of thought. 🙂
 
Well, now I have witnessed the hate that some of you have talked about.

ANTRIM, I tend to agree with you on this one as far as people should not change their gender and men should not adorn themselves as women. It is a sin.

What these people feel is that (please correct if I am wrong) is that they are correcting not changing their gender. So the man who is a woman in his mind is correcting his body to match what he is psychologically.

Now in a case where said person does not have ambiguous genitals, it is my opinion that the condition that needs to be corrected in probably mental and not physical. That said, ANTRIM, maybe be a little more kind to the tg people on CAF. I can only imagine how emotionally damaging it would be to really truly in my heart of hearts believe that I am a man and then look down at my breasts everyday (hope that wasnt too naughty to say her :eek: ). That is what these people go through every day of their life and I am sure that each of them has given their condition plenty of thought. 🙂
Thankyou! Antrim sounds like a mellower version of my parents. It seems that some here treat sin as if it’s something one can totally identify on a chart, and it’s something with no dynamics surrounding it. Lets play Devils advocate here and assume briefly I have been wrong on the whole gender group of issues. God also knows I’m very emotionally impaired, and knows of the things I have done that are good, ie on the abortion front, or the one day I rescued a baby kitten out of a junk yard where nasty dogs were chasing it. I think on the final judgement day it isnt going to all boil down how I handled my transsexuality and nothing else. Like some here make it out to be. While in this forum lately Im posting on tg issues, in my life outside of the net Im defending the Catholic church a ton. If I don’t seem Catholic or christina enough for you as well as the others here like me . Let me remind you to read Mark chapter 9 verses 38 to 41.
 
Well, now I have witnessed the hate that some of you have talked about.
I’m not sure I’d call that ‘hate’. Ignorant, smug, and superior yes, but I’ll give Antrim the benefit of the doubt as far as actual malice goes. If you reread those two posts, there’s no ill-wishing or denigration in them; everything follows pretty naturally from Antrim’s prior assumption that gender is a perfect and prescriptive property of personhood rather than a descriptive one subject to nature’s whims and screwups. That assumption is where the problem is, not (that I have seen) with any personal prejudices – of which there are plenty in this very thread, just start reading backward 😦

Thank you for the rest of that post though 🙂
 
I am talking here in general terms just like a Priest would ask the same question. If asking questions of truth is being unkind so be it.
We Catholics have a moral obligation to save Souls and that has to be done by telling the truth.
There are Souls going to Hell every day like Snowflakes in a storm because of Sins of the Flesh , Sodomy , Debauchery.and other sins. The reason this is happening is they chose to live a lifestyle that is not of God’s will. There are more Souls going to Hell because of Sins of the Flesh than all other Sins combined.
I remember a missionery Priest talking one time about sins of the Flesh and he asked this question If a man and woman are having intercourse and are not married one of them dies at that moment where do you think he/she will spend all Eternity? The same applies for all of these illisit acts that people are commiting.
All I will say in response to the reason they are having surgery is that the Church forbids mutalation of the human body because it is a Temple of the Holy Spirit.
If people want to go to Heaven they must stop justifing their wrong doings change their lives and ask God for forgiveness.
God is full of mercy and compassion.
Repent go and sin no more.

Antrim
 
First and formost the church right now is silent because it has a million and one things on it’s plate and just can’t get to everything at once. Believe it or not the church will study the issue forwords, backwards and sideways before coming out with something definative. I do agree does not make mistakes, but when nature takes over he still allows them to happen. If mistakes didn’t happen our hospitals wouldn’t be half as filled as they are. For your information it isn’t changing gender , it is changing sex. Sex is between the legs and gender is between the ears. Whats between the ears cant be changed, but isn’t always a match or congruent with whats between the legs. Iv’e lived with that for 41 years, I don’t intend to suffer through another 41.🤷
The emphasis here should be placed on that fact that God doesn’t make mistakes; PERIOD. We see a bunch of what we call defects and claim those were mistakes, when they were not. Who’s to say that deafness, for example, isn’t the norm and hearing is the mistake? I don’t say that deafness is the norm, but that we just don’t know. If God allows defects from the norm, then apparently that is the norm, and isn’t a mistake or defect. God allows us mistakes or defects from His Will in all things, so why would He have to make people some great Aryan race in order to claim no mistakes?

It’s absurd to see a design that doesn’t follow the same pattern all the time, and therefore claim it’s mistaken. It’s just as bad as to say us dying, when we will ultimately do so, is a mistake. Anyone ignorant of God might claim such a thing, and indeed, we were meant for the dying in the first place, and therefore, the mistake is ours. He made no mistake in making us to die; it was just punishment. One could even argue, perhaps successfully, that had it not been for our error in the Garden, that it’s quite likely the things we call mistakes, would had never happened to anybody. Indeed, the description of Heaven, sounds very much apart from the things we experience down here.
 
The emphasis here should be placed on that fact that God doesn’t make mistakes; PERIOD. We see a bunch of what we call defects and claim those were mistakes, when they were not.
Are you saying that a baby born with a cleft palate is God’s will and that we shouldn’t use surgery to correct it?
 
The emphasis here should be placed on that fact that God doesn’t make mistakes; PERIOD. We see a bunch of what we call defects and claim those were mistakes, when they were not. Who’s to say that deafness, for example, isn’t the norm and hearing is the mistake? I don’t say that deafness is the norm, but that we just don’t know. If God allows defects from the norm, then apparently that is the norm, and isn’t a mistake or defect. God allows us mistakes or defects from His Will in all things, so why would He have to make people some great Aryan race in order to claim no mistakes?

It’s absurd to see a design that doesn’t follow the same pattern all the time, and therefore claim it’s mistaken. It’s just as bad as to say us dying, when we will ultimately do so, is a mistake. Anyone ignorant of God might claim such a thing, and indeed, we were meant for the dying in the first place, and therefore, the mistake is ours. He made no mistake in making us to die; it was just punishment. One could even argue, perhaps successfully, that had it not been for our error in the Garden, that it’s quite likely the things we call mistakes, would had never happened to anybody. Indeed, the description of Heaven, sounds very much apart from the things we experience down here.
And if it is possible to cure deafness, the Catholic church allows one to partake of that cure. But I can’t have my condion cured. Don’t get me on the subject of double standards.
 
Are you saying that a baby born with a cleft palate is God’s will and that we shouldn’t use surgery to correct it?
Not anymore than I would say that if there were a surgery to cure my mother’s deafness, I would approve of it. It’s God’s Will the condition exists. It’s also God’s Will the outcome of any corrective surgery attempts. IOW, God didn’t make a mistake by allowing the condition we find undesireable, not even when He later lets that condition a successful correction.
 
Just to add some information, sometimes people are born with a chromosome set that they do not present physically. In other words someone may have XX and be born a guy. Or there are genetic problems where they wind up with 3 chromosomes.

But as for my opinion, if you are born a guy, liking dolls, wanting to wear dresses and make-up, and wanting to have sex with guys doesn’t make you a girl. I think you are still a guy. I’ll try to refer to suck persons using the term they like, although I disagree, because insisting on calling them something different is not going to change their mind.
 
Not anymore than I would say that if there were a surgery to cure my mother’s deafness, I would approve of it. It’s God’s Will the condition exists. It’s also God’s Will the outcome of any corrective surgery attempts. IOW, God didn’t make a mistake by allowing the condition we find undesireable, not even when He later lets that condition a successful correction.
Gosh I wish I was around when these threads start. I seem to come along at the end and people are tired of the discussion. However, I don’t see this entire discussion as a dead horse. I see a lot of opinionated comments. Some that I would relegate to Jewish mentality BC and still held by many of them, as well as many Christians. No disrespect meant but before Christ, the Jewish people felt that bad things occured to people because either they did something wrong or their parents did. Christ tried to dispell that thinking without much success.
As someone else pointed out, GOD does not make mistakes. How could HE, HE is GOD. Now please consult an expert on Christion doctrine before commenting to this post. This is what I picked up over the years, from talking to ( if not experts ) very learned teachers of the Catholic faith.
When Adam and Eve sinned, that sin seperated us from GOD’s will. It broke that perfect bond that they enjoyed. Being cast out of the Garden of Eden, brought sickness, abnormalities and death. All the **** that we deal with on a daily basis. This is NOT GOD’s will. We, the human race ( A & E ), rejected GOD’s will and are suffering the consequences. Our GOD is a “loving GOD”. He wanted and wants the best for us.
However, **stuff happens ** and HE allows that. Earthquakes happen. Hurricanes happen. Birth defects happen… He does not interfere in human affares. He gave us free will.
Will HE judge us on how we deal with the things that “happen”?? I have no doubt. Do I fear how HE will judge me??
I hope that HE will have pity on my soul.
However, I have no doubt that my SRS was warranted and that HE will accept me as I now am.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top