Girl Scout Employee Quits, Not Allowed to Wear Pro-Life Shirt

[LemonAndLime]

This is your best post so far. You are right – we do have a class system. I don’t know how much you’ve been following American politics, but there is class warfare going on, fueled by Democratic Party political opportunists who have divided us into various political/social/economic groups. It use to be that a person’s morality was judged by his actions; now it is judged by what political causes he supports. We have many cases similar to your mother’s. There have been many lawsuits filed by university applicants who were passed over so the school can meet its quota of racial minorities even though they had lower grades and test scores. You might even call this activity a class system in reverse.

We have that as well. Oxbridge is the name given to Cambridge and Oxford Universities, they are seperate but together are constantly changing between being the 1st and 2nd best in the country, so they’re just bundled together as being the best. Anyway, about 80% of their intake are from private schools. Even though state school students have the same grades, they still pick mainly from private - even though there are significantly fewer of those than state-ran. Their argument “the schooling is better” - despite numerous government and private audits which show that some state schools are out-performing private, or are at least on a par with them. But Oxbridge are old, really old, so habits die hard. They have been told they have to improve the number of students they have from unprivilaged backgrounds, forcibly. So you have 2 different kinds of discrimination in one example.

In America though I was thinking about the north/south divide, also that political families seem to enjoy an upper-class status along with all the privilages that go with it. You have super-wealthy over there who make themselves royalty, wheres for us its the other way round. But it does appear that you take the “which party do you support” line much more serious that we do. Here no one really gives a monkey’s bottom what party you support. But wind back 40 years ago or so, if you didn’t vote labour and you were working class you were probably crazy.

 

[sedonaman]

…In America though I was thinking about the north/south divide, also that political families seem to enjoy an upper-class status along with all the privilages that go with it. You have super-wealthy over there who make themselves royalty, wheres for us its the other way round. But it does appear that you take the “which party do you support” line much more serious that we do. …

Not to derail the thread or get too far OT,
“America’s Ruling Class”
spectator.org/archives/2010/07/16/americas-ruling-class-and-the

is a somewhat lengthy but excellent article that explains the political facts of life in America. It explains what goes on beneath the surface. All Americans would do well to read it. Since people are people, I suspect something similar might be going on in Britain.

 

[Tenofovir]

Are you sure that in the US you don’t have a class system?

I am not American. What gave you the idea?

Think about it. Begin with your history of “political families/legacies”.

Also, in India what caste you belong to can seriously stop your life and restrict who you can marry. In Britain, we are not even slightly close to that. Just because you refuse to use the word “class” in the US doesn’t mean you don’t have a similar system, just not acknowledged.

Saying that, my mother was unable to go to university despite having the grades because she was told she wasn’t the right sort of person (grew up on a council estate) that they wanted there. Times however have swiftly changed and it is no longer as much of an issue as it was even 30 years ago.

But it still is an issue, and the whole world has changed. Even the Iranians are more likely now to be forgiving and merciful than 20-30 years ago. The North Koreans actually let South Koreans work in parts of North Korea these days.

Compared to Europe and America, Britain is still a class society, despite the heavy influx of Pakistanis, Indians, Africans, ex-Colonials, etc. It’s still a caste like system and I never suggested it was identical to the Indian caste system.

 

[LemonAndLime]

I am not American. What gave you the idea?

But it still is an issue, and the whole world has changed. Even the Iranians are more likely now to be forgiving and merciful than 20-30 years ago. The North Koreans actually let South Koreans work in parts of North Korea these days.

Compared to Europe and America, Britain is still a class society, despite the heavy influx of Pakistanis, Indians, Africans, ex-Colonials, etc. It’s still a caste like system and I never suggested it was identical to the Indian caste system.

Well, as a British person who has lived there all their life, I disagree with you based on my own personal experience. As you haven’t really justified your opinions so far and have just stated them, I have no reason to think you have some enlightened knowledge I don’t have. I really dislike it when people tell me “Yes, but this is really true in your country.” I mean, honestly?

 

[sedonaman]

America has a class system, and the incident involving the woman who is the subject of this tread is proof. She was deemed an outsider and “cast” out of the class because she didn’t support the “correct” political causes. Ever been to a graduation ceremony? Anyone who has will remember all those professors who preached equality suddenly wearing all sorts of gold and color bands over their black gowns. They also sit under a canopy while the rest of us suffer their speeches in the hot sun. A lowly bank teller might be on the bottom of the heap at work during the day, but later that evening, his lodge, of which he is the big kahuna, will be initiating the bank president into its membership where he will be at the bottom. These are all ways of saying, “We are better than you; we belong to a higher class than you.” I could go on, but you get the idea.

 

[LemonAndLime]

America has a class system, and the incident involving the woman who is the subject of this tread is proof. She was deemed an outsider and “cast” out of the class because she didn’t support the “correct” political causes. Ever been to a graduation ceremony? Anyone who has will remember all those professors who preached equality suddenly wearing all sorts of gold and color bands over their black gowns. They also sit under a canopy while the rest of us suffer their speeches in the hot sun. A lowly bank teller might be on the bottom of the heap at work during the day, but later that evening, his lodge, of which he is the big kahuna, will be initiating the bank president into its membership where he will be at the bottom. These are all ways of saying, “We are better than you; we belong to a higher class than you.” I could go on, but you get the idea.

That’s not a “class system” that’s prejudice. They are different.

 

[sedonaman]

That’s not a “class system” that’s prejudice. They are different.

I agree they are different, but I still think it’s a class system. This is why:

Social classes are economic or cultural arrangements of groups in society. … In the social sciences, social class is often discussed in terms of ‘social stratification’. In the modern Western context, stratification typically comprises three layers: upper class, middle class, and lower class. Each class may be further subdivided into smaller classes (e.g., occupational).

The most basic class distinction is between the powerful and the powerless. Social classes with a great deal of power are usually viewed as “the elites” within their own societies. … wiki.ask.com/Social_class

 

[LemonAndLime]

I agree they are different, but I still think it’s a class system. This is why:

How does prejudice on what party you support fit into a class structure of low, middle, and high class? The definition states that what makes you fit into each class is not merely one or two issues. It has to be several points which encompass your whole life. As someone who loves in a class structure and grew up in one more severe than now, I can assure you that what you are describing doesn’t cut it at all.

 

[Tenofovir]

Well, as a British person who has lived there all their life, I disagree with you based on my own personal experience. As you haven’t really justified your opinions so far and have just stated them, I have no reason to think you have some enlightened knowledge I don’t have. I really dislike it when people tell me “Yes, but this is really true in your country.” I mean, honestly?

You may not be aware of it as you’ve taken it for granted your whole life. Britain is a class based society. You’re born into a class, those of the class above yours will always know you’re from the lower class. Some opportunities will always be closed to you.

Perhaps also, you don’t mix with the particular sort of people to recognise it.

 

[Tenofovir]

America has a class system, and the incident involving the woman who is the subject of this tread is proof. She was deemed an outsider and “cast” out of the class because she didn’t support the “correct” political causes.

That’s not class. It’s a reaction to her behaviour. By class I mean a socio-economic stratum you’re born into and cannot get out of. She could avoid getting thrown out by conforming her behaviour.

 

[LemonAndLime]

You may not be aware of it as you’ve taken it for granted your whole life. Britain is a class based society. You’re born into a class, those of the class above yours will always know you’re from the lower class. Some opportunities will always be closed to you.

Perhaps also, you don’t mix with the particular sort of people to recognise it.

You are presuming to know more about my life and my experiences than I do? You are also presuming you are more enlightened about a country you have not spent your entire life living in than someone who has?

And how does this not apply to other countries, like USA, Australia, Canada?

 

[Tenofovir]

You are presuming to know more about my life and my experiences than I do? You are also presuming you are more enlightened about a country you have not spent your entire life living in than someone who has?

Different vantage point. But I didn’t just make this up. You have a 3 tier system in your country. In other parts of the world the differences are not as pronounced. USA does not have aristocracy (dukes, lords, barons, people who matter because of blood relations, etc), middle classes and lower classes. That’s quite an elitist setup. Even granting titles such as “Sir” smacks of an appeal to this elitism.

Of course people may still group according to ethnicity, wealth and education in USA, Oz, NZ and Canada. But when it comes to wealth and education, one can work one’s way up the ladder (or down). But a noble is a noble, even if he loses all his wealth.

But let’s not take this thread off topic.

 

[sedonaman]

How does prejudice on what party you support fit into a class structure of low, middle, and high class? The definition states that what makes you fit into each class is not merely one or two issues. It has to be several points which encompass your whole life. …

Doesn’t my example of the lowly teller and bank president illustrate those “several points”?

There are other classes besides low, middle, and high. Those are economic classes. One definition of “prejudice” is,“unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.” Like it or not, it is a fact that we are judged by the class we are perceived to be in. I say “perceived” because here in America for example, a member of a racial minority is automatically assumed to be in the political class we call “Democrats”. If, upon later examination, he shows that he has views different from the Democrats, he is ostracized and declared not a “real” __________________ [fill in racial minority].

Republicans have been traditionally the “party of the rich man”. Reality changes much quicker than attitudes because many rich have moved over to the Democrats, but the Republicans still carry the stigma of being “for the rich”. Democrats have been much more successful in shedding their image of the Southern racist.

If all this sounds confusing, it’s because it is.

 

[LemonAndLime]

Doesn’t my example of the lowly teller and bank president illustrate those “several points”?

Your job doesn’t dictate your class, but it helps to define it.

There are other classes besides low, middle, and high. Those are economic classes.

Economic classes is the class system of low, middle and high. What class you are in is largely dictated by your economic status in life. Can you imagine someone of high class living in a slum?

One definition of “prejudice” is,“unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.” Like it or not, it is a fact that we are judged by the class we are perceived to be in. I say “perceived” because here in America for example, a member of a racial minority is automatically assumed to be in the political class we call “Democrats”. If, upon later examination, he shows that he has views different from the Democrats, he is ostracized and declared not a “real” __________________ [fill in racial minority].

Republicans have been traditionally the “party of the rich man”. Reality changes much quicker than attitudes because many rich have moved over to the Democrats, but the Republicans still carry the stigma of being “for the rich”. Democrats have been much more successful in shedding their image of the Southern racist.

If all this sounds confusing, it’s because it is.

Political views is an expression of class, not a defining of it. What makes you the class you are are things that are impossible or hard to change, political party is something I can change in a few seconds.

 

[LemonAndLime]

Different vantage point. But I didn’t just make this up. You have a 3 tier system in your country. In other parts of the world the differences are not as pronounced. USA does not have aristocracy (dukes, lords, barons, people who matter because of blood relations, etc), middle classes and lower classes. That’s quite an elitist setup. Even granting titles such as “Sir” smacks of an appeal to this elitism.

Of course people may still group according to ethnicity, wealth and education in USA, Oz, NZ and Canada. But when it comes to wealth and education, one can work one’s way up the ladder (or down). But a noble is a noble, even if he loses all his wealth.

But let’s not take this thread off topic.

The USA does have an aristocracy, it just doesn’t give them titles. Apart from Mr President. Every single country has its own class system, whether it recognises it or not. You always have the rich and privilaged, whose children get into the best schools via contacts, or later become President after coming from a political family… ah, democracy.

 

[sedonaman]

Your job doesn’t dictate your class, but it helps to define it.

There are sub-classes in your place of employment.

Economic classes is the class system of low, middle and high. What class you are in is largely dictated by your economic status in life.

This sounds like circular reasoning.

Political views is an expression of class, not a defining of it. What makes you the class you are are things that are impossible or hard to change, political party is something I can change in a few seconds.

This is incorrect according to the definition in post #85. This is the last I’m going to post on class because it is OT.

 

[LemonAndLime]

There are sub-classes in your place of employment.

This sounds like circular reasoning.

This is incorrect according to the definition in post #85. This is the last I’m going to post on class because it is OT.

As someone who lives in a traditionally class-based society I can assure you you are wrong. There is no such a thing as “sub classes” where you are employed, as class is something that is reaching beyond and within the workplace, not in it. Class is a sphere of its own, there are not lots of little spheres in which people can change classes depending on their environment.

 

[Jesusismyfriend]

So then who is preaching to you about what is right or wrong. It’s ironic that’s all I have to say.

Okay so if you’re wondering what church I belong to, I went to a non-denominational church called “The Alliance Church.” They teach that pre-martitual sex is a sin. They also believe homosexuality is a sin. A few Bible verses (not only in the old testement) preach against homosexuality. Thousands say or suggest that sex should only be practiced within a marriage. Maybe your church doesn’t agree with that. I believe that not just because my church taught that. God has taught me through life expereince that it is better to wait.
A pastor once said that Christians tend to sin because they love their sin. I have talked to several Christians who have struggled with different sins (alcoholism, drugs, having multiple sex partners, etc). Most of these people told me they didn’t “love” or enjoy their sin. They just felt guilty. I’m sure they might have felt some enjoyment or pleasure at the time, but most of them felt guilty. Most of them knew that God did not approve of what they were doing. I believe Christians usually feel conviction from the Holy Spirit when they are doing something wrong. It is only when we feel convicted that we know we are doing wrong.
So that is why I believe what I believe. I’ve made a ton of mistakes, and I’ve felt convicted and I am trying to walk away from that kind of lifestyle. I don’t believe the devil would try to bring about guilt unless he wanted to keep me from growing as a Christian. The kind of guilt I felt caused me to make changes in my life. So it must, in my mind, come from God.

 

[Jesusismyfriend]

Actually, no. It’s called functioning and having a job. My college roomate was a fundie who believed everyone but Baptists, including Jews, Catholics and other Christians were going to Hell. She was not allowed to pass out chick tracks at work. It’s just the way it was. Work is WORK it’s not buddy bible sharing time.

Okay. I can see why her tactics and beliefs would upset a number of people. I don’t believe God favors one denomination over another another. And promoting that is almost like promotoing hatred.

 

[sedonaman]

… I don’t believe God favors one denomination over another another. And promoting that is almost like promotoing hatred.

Then your friend Jesus died for nothing. If God is indifferent to the various religions, then there wouldn’t have been any reason for Jesus’ efforts. God could have just as well let people join any existing religion they wanted, or no religion.