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crowonsnow
Guest
Given Infinity, can a universe create a god?
Why or why not?
Why or why not?
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davidv
Guest
The God that I know is the uncreated first cause. Therefore, the universe can not create God. And whether there is infinity does not matter.
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Leopard
Guest
Given the existence of a hole, can that hole spontaneously give rise to a doughnut?
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quasimodo
Guest
It is perhaps possible for the universe to give rise to a being that we poor humans could not distinguish from God, but if God is the uncreated first cause, then no.
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ASimpleSinner
Guest
A simple yet profoundly nuanced observation!
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crowonsnow
Guest
You’re just stating an axiom. I’m attempting to account for a possible god’s existence, asking how it originates.
How exactly would a god be anything less than what it is if it were created by the universe?
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ASimpleSinner
Guest
Maybe your definition of “god” needs to be presented.
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crowonsnow
Guest
If by hole you mean nothing, it can’t. It can’t because ‘nothing’ isn’t real. But a doughnut is, and given infinity, can certainly create as many ‘holes’ as it wants, semantic holes that is, because the universe is everywhere all the time.
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crowonsnow
Guest
I don’t know what ‘god’ is. But thanks for asking.
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john_doran
Guest
well, if by “god” you mean something like “really powerful being”, then i suppose it could come into existence any nunber of ways: it could be born into a race of other super-powerful beings; it could acquire its power through millions of years of evolutionary advances; it could be created in some random event; or…
but why would you be asking a question about “gods” on a catholic board like this one?
because the christian god is uncreated and eternal. thus, anything that comes into existence is not that god.
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tptram
Guest
Your first post:
You asked "Can a _________ create a ___?
Please define the second blank space.
Also, you stated an assertion/assumption “Given _______”
Please also clarify your assertion/assumption.
For the first order of logic argument, these term must be define/clarify to be meaningful.
Thanks
Tak
and
You need to define your object of the inquiry.I don’t know what ‘god’ is. But thanks for asking.
You asked "Can a _________ create a ___?
Please define the second blank space.
Also, you stated an assertion/assumption “Given _______”
Please also clarify your assertion/assumption.
For the first order of logic argument, these term must be define/clarify to be meaningful.
Thanks
Tak
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Leopard
Guest
No, it isn’t nothing. If it were nothing, you wouldn’t know what I meant by it. It is a reality, but it is a reality dependent on the doughnut for its existence. Depending on the shape you make your doughnut into, it may give rise to zero, one, or more holes. but the holes themselves could not exist apart from the doughnut, much less give rise to the doughnut because while the hole is real, it is of a reality subordinate to the reality of the doughnut.
Likewise, the Universe (or if you prefer, a universe) is also real, but it is of a reality subordinate to the Reality of God.
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Truthstalker
Guest
If by God you mean what everything else is less than, then no, because something that is less cannot make something greater, by its very nature. Any universe is necessarily less than something larger than that universe. God is the one greater than anything else, so He is greater than any universe, or even the set of all possible universes.
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ASimpleSinner
Guest
At the risk of sounding cliched, folksy, home-spun or a an expositer of pious platitude…
I readily concede the forces of the universe come together to create “gods” often. A favorite one of mine to worship in days past was money & the pursuit of wealth.
If we are playing fast and lose with the concept of what is a god and what can create it, I am the first to concede that Golden Calves get manufactured assembly line style these days.
But I suppose the OP isn’t quite thinking of this sort of example. As vague as the question seems to be to my caffiene-deprived noodle, this seems rather rather a working answer.
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crowonsnow
Guest
Okay. Let’s try this:
Given infinity, can a universe create beings that create universes?
Does that help? It would make the most sense to people who believe in creators, which I suppose is what most people ultimately mean when they talk about gods. Generations ago those thoughts were more specific. People might have asked how lightning or volcanoes or mountains or they themselves originated, all parts of the universe certainly. But now our tools and knowledge have given us a greater awareness of the size of the question.
It still doesn’t overcome any axiomatic or dogmatic hurdles but perhaps looking at it that way would help.
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john_doran
Guest
(A) what do you mean, “given infinity”? do you mean, “given an infinite amount of time”?
(B) again, even if such a being could arise, it would not be God, but only a god.
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crowonsnow
Guest
Well, if need be to clear up any confusion wrt the word infinity, we could just say:
‘Given that a universe exists, can a universe create beings that create universes?’
Either way works.
quote=john doran again, even if such a being could arise, it would not be God, but only a god.
[/quote]
How would you know the difference?
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john_doran
Guest
because the christian god is uncreated…
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crowonsnow
Guest
Is this an axiom among people who believe in creator gods? It seems like a contradiction.
What I mean is that if a creation god like a christian god is taken as uncreated, and if the universe, like a christian universe is something that is created, then clearly that which is created can only arise from that which is uncreated. That is the logical outcome - creation from the uncreated. That seems to be what christians believe.
So if the universe or cosmos is taken as uncreated, which observationally is accurate, though perhaps dogmatically uncomfortable to some, using a christian created/uncreated line of reasoning, it would seem that a christian would have to admit that the universe can create a creator god just like theirs. Or is there a mistake in my line of thought as to how a christian reasons out a creator?
Or like I said, it is not a matter of reason but rather dogma?
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john_doran
Guest
that the universe is uncreated is not “observationally accurate”. leaving aside the basic epistemological problem that the past is not observable, the best cosmological theories we currently have involve an initial singularity.
what line of thought? you haven’t presented any reasoning to support your claim that “it would seem that a christian would have to admit that the universe can create a creator god like theors”. why does it seem that way?
look, christians believe that the universe was created by god (or at least relies upon god for its (possibly eternal) existence). they believe that god is a noncorporeal being that has existed for all eternity. neither of those properties is compatible with a being that began to exist after the universe was created.
look, you’re obviously fishing for something here, but you’re being needlessly circuitous in the way you’re baiting the hook…
the question you’re actually asking about the relation between the christian god and some god created by the universe, is a semantic question: it’s like asking if a geometric plane figure with three sides could be a square - given the definition of “square”, the answer is simply and analytically, no. same goes for “god” defined as “uncreated creator off the universe”: any being that lacks those properties is so far forth not god. QED.
but if what you really want to know is whether there’s any good reason to think that an uncreate creator exists, then you should just ask that question.
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