Given Infinity, can a Universe create a God?

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crowonsnow said:
Given Infinity, can a universe create a god?

Why or why not?
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sure. who knows, perhaps the creator of this universe was simply a product of another universe. afterall god has to come from somewhere! šŸ˜ƒ
 
It would be impossible for a created being to simply ā€œcreateā€ a universe (by create, I assume you mean ex nihilo, or out of nothing). No created being (no finite being, or being that is not all powerful or eternal) would be able to will something, such as a universe, into existence. Therefore the universe could not produce such beings by itā€™s own volition.

Also, from a Christian standpoint, God always was, and the universe is secondary. God is eternal and all powerful. So, if we were to accept this, then there could be no other all powerful beings. There can not be more than one all powerful being in existence because if you have more than one then they limit each others power (if they disagree on something, then one would have to have the ability to thwart the otherā€¦ but if one is thwarted, then it cannot be all powerful. If one cannot thwart the other, then once again, it is not all powerful)
 
crowonsnow said:
If by hole you mean nothing, it canā€™t. It canā€™t because ā€˜nothingā€™ isnā€™t real. But a doughnut is, and given infinity, can certainly create as many ā€˜holesā€™ as it wants, semantic holes that is, because the universe is everywhere all the time.
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If ā€œnothingā€ isnā€™t real, then how is it we can mention its existence as something that isnā€™t there? The hole in the center of a doughnut is something real - itā€™s the absence of that part of the doughnut which was removed or that part of the doughnut which is lacking. ā€œNothingā€ really exists in the middle of the doughnut only because the doughnut first existed, if by ā€œnothingā€ we mean the hole in the center. šŸ¤“

With regard to the Title, the universe is an effect, so it canā€™t create what caused it, if we mean God.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
Guldenat said:
I
Also, from a Christian standpoint, God always was, and the universe is secondary.
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the bible did not really say that god created space and time. perhaps he is co-eternal with the space that he occupies. šŸ˜ƒ
 
Valke2 said:
What do you mean by given infinity? Are you saying the universe is infinite?
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its well known that the universe as we know it is not infinite. BUT, there is a possibility that the creation & destruction of a universe (big bang & big crunch) is part of an infinite cycle.
 
Current understanding of the universe shows that there is no where near the mass needed for the Big Crunchā€¦

There are two current possibilitiesā€¦ (and this may change as understanding changes

The Big Ripā€¦
The Universe continues to accelerate the rate of expansion until it is so fast that even atoms cannot stand up to the forces needed to stay together. If this is the case, Iā€™ve heard some put the estimate of when at roughly 10 billion yearsishā€¦

The Big Chill
The Universe does not undergo such drastic acceleration of expansion, but still expands all the same until everything is so far apart, the effective density of the universe is 0

In Christ
 
If by God we mean the cause of existence, then I donā€™t see how something that already exists can create God.
 
heisenburg said:
Current understanding of the universe shows that there is no where near the mass needed for the Big Crunchā€¦
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the universe is mainly composed of dark matter. of which we know nothing about. so the big crunch still remains a possibility.
 
AgnosTheist said:
if there is such a thing as multiple universes, then its possible.
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If there are multiple universes, then theyā€™ve already been created. Is the questoin, 'can this universe create a God that is the first cause of existence in other universes? Essentially, can Omnipotence evolve? Does any of this explain Chris Angel?
 
crowonsnow said:
Given Infinity, can a universe create a god?

Why or why not?
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Depends on what your definition of a God is.

My definition is, an inteligent being, the ā€œultimate realityā€ of a thing, the cause and foundation of all nature, the ā€œessenceā€ of ā€œexistingā€; without which, nothing could exist. God is the reason why there is anything and is the root of everything, whether that be a infinite universe or a finite one. God is Super-nature.

So, by my definition, no, an infinite universe could not create a God. If the universe itself is the ultimate reality, then you could say that the universe is God, if you redefine the word God as just meaning ā€œthe ultimate realityā€; but up against my criteria, it lacks one of the major characters, which is ā€œinteligence and sentienceā€. Therefore there would be no such thing as God, if your talking about a created being.
 
from the impossibility threadā€¦
Donald45 said:
the bible says the gift of god is eternal life. that means good catholics would also be timeless? outside of time?
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how can something outside of time have a beginning? thats contradictory. even so, god could have started from somewhere the same way. a finite creature that was able to bend reality and achieve infinity, eternity. its like the paradox of time travel. its just that heā€™s been around for so long he cant remember where he came from anymore. thus no beginning and no end. šŸ˜ƒ
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AgnosTheist said:
from the impossibility threadā€¦
how can something outside of time have a beginning? thats contradictory. even so, god could have started from somewhere the same way. a finite creature that was able to bend reality and achieve infinity, eternity. its like the paradox of time travel. its just that heā€™s been around for so long he cant remember where he came from anymore. thus no beginning and no end. šŸ˜ƒ
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Would you care to explain how a finite creature which has a beginning can eventually achieve the state of being an infinite and eternal being? If he were finite to begin with, then obviously he could never be eternal (without beginning and end). The only reality I see being bent here is logic. šŸ¤“

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
AgnosTheist said:
the bible did not really say that god created space and time. perhaps he is co-eternal with the space that he occupies. šŸ˜ƒ
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You are correct, the bible does not, but I was not referencing the bible for any of my claims. It is simply logic. If our definition of God includes his perfection and is eternal, and we agree that the created universe has a set beginning, then God existed before the universe. Also, God is a pure spirit, so he does not ā€˜occupyā€™ space. If he existed before creation, and he is perfect, then it follows that he existed before time, since time requires change, and a perfect and eternal being cannot change. If a being is perfect then any change would inevitably result in a lack of perfection, and the being would not be God.
 
AgnosTheist said:
the universe is mainly composed of dark matter. of which we know nothing about. so the big crunch still remains a possibility.
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no, itā€™s not: the expansion of the universe is accelerating, which makes a big crunch impossible.
 
AgnosTheist said:
its well known that the universe as we know it is not infinite. BUT, there is a possibility that the creation & destruction of a universe (big bang & big crunch) is part of an infinite cycle.
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If existence is as you suggest, that means existence itself is eternal. Being eternal implies perfection, and since the universe is constantly changing, it cannot be perfect, and therefore cannot be eternal.
 
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