Given the principles of evolution, natural selection, survival of the fittest, etc, do you think belief in the supernatural will die out or become a m

[OneSheep]

A bit more than a yes or no response is required. Properly judging the pros and cons of one view and an opposing view is not based on fear but on the merits, or lack thereof, of both views. The tendency here is the “evolution is a fact” approach - so it’s a settled matter. No debate, no dissent, no counter-argument(s) allowed. Or, to put it in colloquial terms: “What? You don’t believe in evolution? Do I have to slap you upside your head? I won’t stand for such ignorance.” Of course, far, far more subtle approaches have been tried.

If someone accuses me and their accusation is provable, I admit my error. I say I’m sorry. Not with this.

Discover does not work either. This is a take as it is now approach, or suffer subtle accusations and indignations, or fall into the 'you’re obviously not educated enough to accept what I accept" group. The answer must always be yes. Anything else and you have page after page of “I’ve read it all before,” before the thread is locked or disappears.

Ed

How frustrating, Ed.

It might be worthwhile to keep in mind that those who push the Theory of Evolution (all aspects) as fact may themselves be coming from a position of fear and/or resentment. The fear: that religion is pushed on people. This would come, perhaps, from someone who has experienced some religious zealotry that has been harmful in some way, and they seek to protect people. Of course, they also seek to seemingly protect science itself from religious interference, just as someone like yourself may seek to protect Christian faith from the threat of evolutionary theory, such as it seems.

Where the supernatural comes into play here is when one side or another realizes that they would have the same stance if they had the other’s experience base. “I get it, you are protecting an ideology, protecting others from being swayed by something you see as harmful.” Such a statement comes from the Supernatural gift of Understanding, which comes from the Spirit.

Accusations, even if subtle, will always be counterproductive.

 

[Bradski]

Where the supernatural comes into play here is when one side or another realizes that they would have the same stance if they had the other’s experience base.

That’s not applicable. The point is that evolution has been shown to be the process whereby we have arrived where we are now. Period. There are literally no other scientific explanations.

Now I would say that nature has utilised this process. You can say that it is the method that God has used. That’s great. We can agree to disagree on that, but let me get you a beer and now we can talk politics or sport.

But what some people want to do is say that God couldn’t have done it that way (thus selling God short), but for whatever reason He did it some other way, for which there is zero evidence.

Which makes more sense to you: God did it in a way which is verified by a gargantuan amount of evidence or in a way which has zero credible evidence only presented by Christians with an agenda?

 

[grannymh]

Regarding the term supernatural in this thread’s title.

Discussion would be easier when there is the recognition of two worlds, the material and the spiritual. I do think that an atheist can recognize the concept of the spiritual world without believing in it. It is like following the yellow brick road.

The term supernatural is a good way to describe the spiritual world. The spiritual world is often considered above the material world – top drawer. In the Catholic Church, the spiritual world of joy eternal following bodily death is the goal of earthly life.

In real life, humans, in addition to a spiritual soul, have a decomposing anatomy. That places us in the center of our material world. The Science of Human Evolution is correct within the material world. The first difficulty comes when the Science of Human Evolution intersects with beliefs belonging to the spiritual world. The second difficulty is that not all Christians have the same “religious” beliefs.

Given the above thoughts about two worlds, material and spiritual, I wonder why the term Science of Human Evolution is not used on a thread like this. Does someone know?

 

[Bradski]

Given the above thoughts about two worlds, material and spiritual, I wonder why the term Science of Human Evolution is not used on a thread like this. Does someone know?

I think it’s a given that we are talking about human evolution. It seems superfluous to constantly refer to it as ‘the science of human evolution’.

 

[grannymh]

I think it’s a given that we are talking about human evolution. It seems superfluous to constantly refer to it as ‘the science of human evolution’.

That is a good comment. Thank you.

We need to keep mentioning the Science of Human Evolution because it is the only evolution model which can intersect with Catholic Doctrines. It is important to learn about the Science of Human Evolution as the result of the Homo/Pan Split. This is important information because it helps clarify why Catholics cannot accept the given human evolution when at the same time Catholics can accept the evolution of whales, dogs, and chimpanzees.

We could switch to paleoanthropology. However the Science of Human Evolution has a warm sense.

 

[Bradski]

This is important information because it helps clarify why Catholics cannot accept the given human evolution when at the same time Catholics can accept the evolution of whales, dogs, and chimpanzees.

I think that when you say Catholics you mean Grannymh.

 

[grannymh]

I think that when you say Catholics you mean Grannymh.

Of course I am a Catholic.

Actually, I should say the Catholic Church. There are lots of Catholics who want to rebuild Catholicism from the bottom up.

On the other hand, you are right that often I mean grannymh.

This is because some of the CAF participants who had a good grasp of natural science including evolution have not returned on a regular basis. However, fortunately a few knowledgeable posters are still here.

Thank you for recognizing that I do mean grannymh because I belong to the dead generation who had a different way of learning Catholicism, including the early years following Pentecost and the protocol of the visible Catholic Church on earth.

And I may be the only granny who understands what Pope Pius XII was saying in
“church-speak.” There are some grandfathers who also understand.

Now that you know who I am, perhaps we can have an interesting discussion.

 

[inocente]

It needs intelligent people to use the evolutionary theory in life science. In a similar way, if evolution happened, it would need God to direct it. We know that the ToE is being used to prove a God is not necessary.

Evolution is very easy to understand. We were taught the idea in one lesson aged 13 or 14.

It would be easy to tell if God directed it. Lots of people have tried to find something, anything, that God directed, but after 158 years no one has. Appears He lets it run on autopilot.

 

[inocente]

Glad to see you.

The huge error on this thread is that we all talk about “evolution” that many Catholics accept and never ever talk about all, yes all, elements of “human evolution.”

In addition, we do not normally examine the general protocol for research papers. Nor do we consider the assumptions, some are valid at the time, that are used in research.

One of the early assumptions in paleoanthropology was that the brow ridge can be one key in determining the Homo species descending from the Homo/Pan split. Then there is the Piltdown Man which actually advanced better and stronger methods of examining finds. My favorite error occurred when people considered the “Eve Research” as proving that the Eve in Scripture is real. I was always referring to Wikipedia’s “Common Misconceptions” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

All of the above are signs of basic evolution at some point in human evolution history. Each point is part of a population. Scientists naturally consider that the above occurred as part of evolution populations evolving into new evolution populations. Even the Piltdown Man became the “hoped for” example of one population evolving into a new population.

When this thread speaks of the principles of evolution, we cannot set aside the fact that natural selection, survival of the fittest, etc. takes place in large indiscriminate random breeding polygenesis populations.

In the Catholic Church, the origin of the human species begins as a population of two fully-complete human persons.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Each human person is worthy of profound respect.

Hiya, hope you’ve had good times since we last met.

My understanding is that the Church teaches God gives everyone their soul. At some point he gave the first two their souls, and so on ever since. Which seems to be separate from evolution. Or is it more complicated?

 

[inocente]

Evolution has no practical purpose.

Ed

Evolution produced you. Well, perhaps you’re saying so what, you have no practical purpose. I disagree. You almost certainly do, unless you’re purely decorative.

 

[grannymh]

Hiya, hope you’ve had good times since we last met.

My understanding is that the Church teaches God gives everyone their soul. At some point he gave the first two their souls, and so on ever since. Which seems to be separate from evolution. Or is it more complicated?

Unfortunately, it has become complicated. That may be because over time, people have become very sloppy in their terminology at the same time that evolution has become very precise due to technology. Evolution has left the era of the Piltdown Man.

For example. “God gives everyone their soul.” That is correct; however, the term “gives everyone” assumes that there was an everyone such as the first two in order for God to give the living them a soul. The Science of Human Evolution is precise in that populations developing into new populations are capable of humanizing everyone.

We can say that God gives everyone their soul because the “spiritual soul is created immediately by God --it is not “produced” by the parents --” (CCC 366) Still we cannot skip over the fact that it is the spiritual soul which animates matter (conception) so that this matter “becomes a living human body;” (CCC 365) The Science of Human Evolution uses words such as “emerging from the forces of living matter or as a mere epiphenomenon of this matter”
Refer to this famous speech.
newadvent.org/library/docs_jp02tc.htm

“Consequently, theories of evolution which, in accordance with the philosophies inspiring them, consider the spirit as emerging from the forces of living matter or as a mere epiphenomenon of this matter, are incompatible with the truth about man. Nor are they able to ground the dignity of the person.”

Please accept my apology, but I am traveling and cannot properly continue the above.
And yes, I have enjoyed life.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . the material world. . . the spiritual world. . . I wonder why the term Science of Human Evolution is not used on a thread like this. Does someone know?

Let’s remember that there is one world. We can do this because of our capacity to analyze and isolate components place them into categories and to restructure and synthesizes them into a whole.

As a side track that is to the point, isn’t it funny how it is possible?

I suppose there are people studying how that capacity, they believe, would have “evolved” from say membrane changes in unicellular creatures reacting to harmful temperatures, which would precipitate a series of chemical changes, resulting in movement away from harm. It’s something like that perhaps and maybe some inquisitive soul is collating that sort of information at an academic level.

I came across a study recently that I can’t easily find at the moment, which stated that the human brain’s ability to respond to sequences is unique to living creatures. What this would mean is that we can place events in a temporal and causal order, and animals cannot. The consequence of this inability for an ape who has been taught rudimentary language, is that it would not be able to distinguish between “Bob struck Bill” and “Bill struck Bob”. The human brain can “code” (I’m holding my nose as I use this modern analogy to computers, which distorts the truth of what the brain is.) for order; this is important for a rational being who exists at the intersection of time and eternity. Our material being has been molded in such a way as to express where we are here and now, in time and space, the spirituality inherent in being a person.

A “Science of Human Evolution” does not exist. If there is any movement in that direction it is at the level of arrowheads compared to communication satellites. Because they cannot offer any explanation as to the ability we have to do mathematics, create works of musical and visual beauty, do philosophy, economics, politics, do what we are doing in this moment, some people who do “evolution” have rendered it “mindless” and eliminated the reality of humanity by absorbing it into the animal kingdom. All life on this planet, I envision as a planned byproduct of the essential purpose of creating a being who would come to know its Creator - to have the capacity for love. There is no true evolution towards the existence of mankind, but rather a step forward, a new creation. Because of this, I would consider it a misnomer to speak of “Human Evolution”.

To tidy up this post, ending where I started, again I would advocate for a view that sees there being but one world. The material is an expression of what is spiritual in nature. At the Very Centre from which all this springs is perfect relationality - Love. Everything is brought into being, by the Word of God. At risk of being considered an eccentric bordering on the delusional, I will mention that the wacky worlds of relativity and quantum physics, make sense without any mental contortions, when one considers a God-centred universe.

 

[grannymh]

Briefly.

The reason there are two worlds, spiritual and material, is that God is not a blood and guts (material) creature.

The Science of Human Evolution devotes its energy to the hominin descendants of the Homo/Pan Split which is an essential component (speciation event) in the full complete evolution theory regarding humans. Paleoanthropologists also study the precursors to the Homo/Pan Split.

 

[rossum]

I came across a study recently that I can’t easily find at the moment, which stated that the human brain’s ability to respond to sequences is unique to living creatures.

That study is probably wrong, at least for chimps. Chimps can respond to sequences, and some chimps perform better than humans, probably due to superior short-term working memory.

See on YouTube.

rossum

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Briefly.

The reason there are two worlds, spiritual and material, is that God is not a blood and guts (material) creature.

The Science of Human Evolution devotes its energy to the hominin descendants of the Homo/Pan Split which is an essential component (speciation event) in the full complete evolution theory regarding humans. Paleoanthropologists also study the precursors to the Homo/Pan Split.

Amen. Many atheists wish fervently that mankind will become half-robotic so that they can preserve their lives on earth forever. They are so concerned with preserving their lives because they believe there is no afterlife. How surprised they will be when they die! Atheists think this earth is it. If you can’t see it or touch it or taste it or smell it or hear it, it does not exists. Atheists are pure materialists.

 

[edwest2]

Evolution is very easy to understand. We were taught the idea in one lesson aged 13 or 14.

It would be easy to tell if God directed it. Lots of people have tried to find something, anything, that God directed, but after 158 years no one has. Appears He lets it run on autopilot.

Not so. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, raised the dead literally. This intersection between God and His Creation cannot be avoided. People who would have otherwise died were brought back from the dead, without science.

Ed

 

[edwest2]

How frustrating, Ed.

It might be worthwhile to keep in mind that those who push the Theory of Evolution (all aspects) as fact may themselves be coming from a position of fear and/or resentment. The fear: that religion is pushed on people. This would come, perhaps, from someone who has experienced some religious zealotry that has been harmful in some way, and they seek to protect people. Of course, they also seek to seemingly protect science itself from religious interference, just as someone like yourself may seek to protect Christian faith from the threat of evolutionary theory, such as it seems.

Where the supernatural comes into play here is when one side or another realizes that they would have the same stance if they had the other’s experience base. “I get it, you are protecting an ideology, protecting others from being swayed by something you see as harmful.” Such a statement comes from the Supernatural gift of Understanding, which comes from the Spirit.

Accusations, even if subtle, will always be counterproductive.

There is nothing subtle about some of the accusations. But your assumptions are exactly that. I’ll accept truth but not an unexamined ‘Believe it only’ concept.

The Catholic Church has a National Academy of Sciences.

This isn’t about life experience. There is no such thing as two right answers. Ideologies exist for a lot of things including this. I am going beyond settled science and hearing about viable alternatives to this. The only question that remains unanswered after reading about this here for years is, How will my life be affected if I don’t believe this theory has merit?

I have never gotten a reply. I will say this: There will be zero effect on my ability to do anything, technical or otherwise. Guaranteed.

Ed

 

[edwest2]

I meant Pontifical Academy of Sciences.

Ed

 

[Aloysium]

Briefly.

The reason there are two worlds, spiritual and material, is that God is not a blood and guts (material) creature.

The Science of Human Evolution devotes its energy to the hominin descendants of the Homo/Pan Split which is an essential component (speciation event) in the full complete evolution theory regarding humans. Paleoanthropologists also study the precursors to the Homo/Pan Split.

I think of the physical universe as fundamentally spiritual by the fact that it exists, has a purpose, is the truth in the structure of its being, expresses its Creator’s glory and beauty and is held within the ocean of His infinite compassion. The ontological structure of the material world, the formation of complex organisms, layered by their souls into a hierarchy from “light”, to particles forming atoms, molecules, and cells to become animals and plants, reflects the triune nature of its Maker. It is an act of loving union of pure individual states having a common essence, surrendering to each other (entangled) and the greater whole, which together they form. Sorry if this sounds confusing and esoteric; I’m not sure how to simply express it.

God is not blood and guts, save in the Eucharist, the body and blood of our Saviour. As Creator, He is other to His creation, with which He is in Love. We as its sentient expressions can come to know Him, our love for Him and His love for us becoming one in Jesus Christ, as the Beatific Vision.

I understand that The Science of Human Evolution would be the study of anatomic and physiological changes that have occurred since we came into this world and that result in the diversity that we see among various populations.

My perspective of the Homo/Pan split is that it exists as an idea that brings together data in a coherent picture, portraying mankind as emerging from animals that resemble us. This is a view that many, perhaps even most of us believe. This need not necessarily be the case. God is God and we could have come into being initially any number of ways. For example, God knowing we need a companion, made Eve from Adam as he slept. I have no idea why there should be male and female other than it expresses love better than does asexual reproduction. So, one scenario might be that while Adam slept through the millions of years it took to mold stardust into the human form, the pair was formed, in this case cradled within a prehuman womb, to become our parents. God who emptied Himself to became a man, immaculately conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, God who raises the dead, of whom we partake that we may transform ourselves into Him, God can definitely bring about a flourishing of genetic variety necessary for human adaptation, that may give the appearance of there having previously existed a group, where initially there were only two.

 

[OneSheep]

There is nothing subtle about some of the accusations. But your assumptions are exactly that.

Hi Ed,

Not sure which assumptions you are referring to, but no accusation was intended.

I’ll accept truth but not an unexamined ‘Believe it only’ concept.

The Catholic Church has a National Academy of Sciences.

This isn’t about life experience. There is no such thing as two right answers. Ideologies exist for a lot of things including this. I am going beyond settled science and hearing about viable alternatives to this. The only question that remains unanswered after reading about this here for years is, How will my life be affected if I don’t believe this theory has merit?

I have never gotten a reply. I will say this: There will be zero effect on my ability to do anything, technical or otherwise. Guaranteed.

Ed

Again, there is no argument against this solid, genuine, viewpoint based on personal experience. I can think of no possible counter-argument to the view that giving merit to the Theory of Evolution has any effect on your ability to do anything or experience life in a better way. Stand by your good statement, friend, there is nothing to say to refute this!