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tonyrey
Guest
It’s survived the test of 2,000 years…
Given the principles of evolution, natural selection, survival of the fittest, etc, do you think belief in the supernatural will die out or become a m
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grannymh
Guest
“Problem with science” is so tiny that one does not need a rug to hide it. However, be careful because Adam can trip over a tea bag.
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Bradski
Guest
Well, gee, it’s a scientific web page. Giving scientific information. About science. How could it be anything except secular?
And if there are no natural causes, then why do people like Behe spend the best part of their lives trying to to convince us that there is a difference between what we see as natural and that which is not. That is, designed.
If it’s all designed then he is wasting his time. And ours. You should tell him. Here’s the email for the Director of Comms at the Design Institute: rob@discovery.org.
He’ll pass on your comments.
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Eric_Hyom
Guest
In that case, science could only be truthful if there is no God.
You have used this to try and explain population drift, and how a new species splits from it’s common ancestor. But the bottom line is the squirrel, fish and microbe have not split from their common ancestor as a result of these changes in the environment.
Life is too complex, it has to be designed by God, and science at some point will come to this conclusion.
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PluniaZ
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inocente
Guest
The university says it was “specifically founded by the Catholic bishops of the United States, with a charter from then Pope Leo XIII, to be the national university of the Catholic Church in America”.
It doesn’t matter to me what you believe, but it seems probable that Church teaching is what a Catholic university, founded by a Pope, teaches to seminarians.
That’s what philosophers called an appeal to ignorance, and what theologians call god-of-the-gaps. What you believe is up to you, but we are on a philosophy forum
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grannymh
Guest
News Flash
In the United States,
not every Catholic University or Catholic clergy or Catholic website likes basic Eve and Adam history.
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lynnvinc
Guest
You got it.
The material world can be studied analytically/artificially independent of the spiritual, which is what science does. But the spiritual world pervades and encompasses the material, sort of the way infinity contains within it the finite.
As a social scientist I followed a multi-dimensional perspective which has it that none of the various dimensions of the human condition determine the others, but they impact and pervade/interpenetrate each other – the environmental, biological, psychological, social and cultural dimensions.
When I got to the chapter on religion (or belief systems), I explained that the beliefs/knowledge/values aspect of religion is of the cultural dimension, as science is (which is a knowledge/belief system without a value system & thus also of the cultural dimension). (Note that a famous sociologist claimed that religion is an eminently collective thing – of the social dimension, church – and if not it really isn’t religion.) And I guess psychologists would have their say about religion being psychological.
However, the spiritual, as opposed to the religious, is something beyond the purview of science and social science and is deleted from science’s equations so as to make science easier to do (sort of as they delete many other variables that are not part of their current focus).
However, for the religious person who has faith and belief in the spiritual, the spiritual is all-pervasive and impacting all the other dimensions. God is omni-present, omni-potent, and omniscient. But it is a matter of faith, not scientific experiments, not something we can know scientifically. And I’ve heard that at work in the spiritual dimension is “divine economy” and many other things that help us finite mortals make sense of it a bit to the extent we lesser beings can.
However, during that belief systems chapter I would also share a newspaper clipping about a scientific experiment done in Florida of a group praying over the sick; the ones prayed over got better at a higher rate than the ones they didn’t pray over. I suppose they had to stop that experiment short and just pray over everyone, since it was found to be so effective
There was also another newpaper article I would use about a science fair project in which a girl took 5 marigold plants. One she talked to, one she prayed over, one got classical music, one got hard rock, and the 5th was just watered like the rest but got no special treatment.
The control one did fine, grew well; the one that she spoke to did better; the one that got classical music did even better; and the one she prayed over did best. The one that got hard rock died.
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grannymh
Guest
The supernatural will not die out.
It will remain on the back burner as long as the crowd ignores the basic evolution principle in Humani Generis, Pope Pius XII, 1950.
It will remain on the back burner as long as the crowd ignores the basic evolution principle in Humani Generis, Pope Pius XII, 1950.
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inocente
Guest
How can I put this as gently as possible?
If, after 2000 years, Catholic scholars still cannot agree the meaning of the first three pages of the bible, non-Catholics may wonder how many more thousand years it will take.
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grannymh
Guest
Regarding many more thousand years…How can I put this as gently as possible?
If, after 2000 years, Catholic scholars still cannot agree the meaning of the first three pages of the bible, non-Catholics may wonder how many more thousand years it will take.
My estimation, according to Humani Generis, is roughly 5,735 years. Non-Catholics can sit in their favorite chair (my favorite childhood expression may be banned) or they can do some exploring.
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inocente
Guest
As you’re in the social sciences, you may not have been introduced to concepts like statistical significance and experimental repeatably.There was also another newpaper article I would use about a science fair project in which a girl took 5 marigold plants. One she talked to, one she prayed over, one got classical music, one got hard rock, and the 5th was just watered like the rest but got no special treatment.
The control one did fine, grew well; the one that she spoke to did better; the one that got classical music did even better; and the one she prayed over did best. The one that got hard rock died.
Suffice to say that one student doing a single such experiment isn’t much different to flipping a coin. Sure enough, a quick google found the exact opposite result - (as I understand it, Cliff Richard is a British Christian balladeer).
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grannymh
Guest
Personally, I liked the guts of the one student.As you’re in the social sciences, you may not have been introduced to concepts like statistical significance and experimental repeatably.
Suffice to say that one student doing a single such experiment isn’t much different to flipping a coin. Sure enough, a quick google found the exact opposite result - (as I understand it, Cliff Richard is a British Christian balladeer).
Keep going kid. In the future you may be repeating that experiment when you land on Mars.
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Vonsalza
Guest
Trying to be a civil as possible;How can I put this as gently as possible?
If, after 2000 years, Catholic scholars still cannot agree the meaning of the first three pages of the bible, non-Catholics may wonder how many more thousand years it will take.
Baptists encounter the same issue in the same way with the same problems.
As such, it’s not a “Catholic” problem. It’s a Christian problem.
Catholics have just been at it for 2000 years because Catholics have been around that long. Not so much for Baptists.
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inocente
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The non-Catholic explorer would probably go to the secular resources listed on that university page I cited.Regarding many more thousand years…
My estimation, according to Humani Generis, is roughly 5,735 years. Non-Catholics can sit in their favorite chair (my favorite childhood expression may be banned) or they can do some exploring.
Agreed. Everyone should do science at school. Then the world would be a better place.
Nope. Different understanding of baptism and original sin. Not an issue. We might have other problems, but that’s not even a bijou problemette.
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grannymh
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Good for her. Sometimes, it is better to learn how sour milk tastes.The non-Catholic explorer would probably go to the secular resources listed on that university page I cited.
On the other hand, I better confess I did not get to your university page. I am in round 3 in my fight with the computer. However, if you will post it again…
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Vonsalza
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Interesting. There were loads of Baptists at seminary that were divided on young earth v. old earth, genesis is literal v. genesis is figurative and allegorical, we inherit responsibility for Adam’s sin v. we only inherit the fallen world, open v. closed theism concerning the fall and many, many others.
I’ll let them all know a Spanish Baptist commenter on Catholic Answers Forums insists that those debates have actually been authoritatively settled for all Baptists. I’m sure they’ll be relieved.
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inocente
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Perhaps you were on vacation that day.Interesting. There were loads of Baptists at seminary that were divided on young earth v. old earth, genesis is literal v. genesis is figurative and allegorical, we inherit responsibility for Adam’s sin v. we only inherit the fallen world, open v. closed theism concerning the fall and many, many others.
I’ll let them all know a Spanish Baptist commenter on Catholic Answers Forums insists that those debates have actually been authoritatively settled for all Baptists. I’m sure they’ll be relieved.
In a nutshell the idea is that we are a royal priesthood, so we all only have one master, Christ. Which necessarily means we are all equal. And we are each responsible directly to God. A Baptist has no automatic advantage over an atheist. God and God alone judges each of us.
So that’s a principle of individual responsibility. When it comes to beliefs, no one ought try to hide behind a Nuremberg defense or try to coerce anyone. In matters of religion libertad, igualdad, fraternidad.
As a result, put six Baptists in a room and get twelve opinions out. No debate is ever settled. Because what you believe is between you and God. Hence, not even a bijou problemette.
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Vonsalza
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I genuinely don’t see what you’re trying to say here.
First you act as though Baptists are somehow more unified on doctrine than you think Catholics are, but then you say that for every Baptist there are two opinions…
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grannymh
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Years ago, I had some great conversations with Inocente. Studying some Baptist websites helped. I understand. The odd thing is that I see similar thinking in what some current Catholics are proposing going backwards to the 1940’s. My current observations are probably wrong so I will keep them to myself.I genuinely don’t see what you’re trying to say here.
First you act as though Baptists are somehow more unified on doctrine than you think Catholics are, but then you say that for every Baptist there are two opinions…
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