Glenn Beck rally will be a measure of the tea party's strength

[Catherine_D]

How does the Left have a solution to kill the poor? Enlighten us of direct programs in place or the Left are proposing that says to kill people.

Taxes is taking other people’s money? I would assume you are talking about taxes?

I can’t speak for the other poster as to what they meant, but I can at least give it a try.

I suspect the reference about “killing the poor” is in regards to the many abortions among the poor. These days Planned Parenthood likes to distance itself from Margaret Sanger, who was involved in Planned Parenthood from the beginning, but people have long memories. Margaret Sanger was a proponent of eugenics, it’s just that her target was different than Hitler’s.

As for “taking other people’s money”, the essence of income redistribution is to take money from income earners in the form of taxation and provide it to others in the form of welfare. Those programs have been in place for over 40 years. If they worked, there shouldn’t be any more poor people, but there still are millions of them.

I think it’s time to try education and job training as a means out of poverty, but that’s just me.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

I can’t speak for the other poster as to what they meant, but I can at least give it a try.

I suspect the reference about “killing the poor” is in regards to the many abortions among the poor. These days Planned Parenthood likes to distance itself from Margaret Sanger, who was involved in Planned Parenthood from the beginning, but people have long memories. Margaret Sanger was a proponent of eugenics, it’s just that her target was different than Hitler’s.

As for “taking other people’s money”, the essence of income redistribution is to take money from income earners in the form of taxation and provide it to others in the form of welfare. Those programs have been in place for over 40 years. If they worked, there shouldn’t be any more poor people, but there still are millions of them.

I think it’s time to try education and job training as a means out of poverty, but that’s just me.

Great post.

 

[josephdavid]

I can’t speak for the other poster as to what they meant, but I can at least give it a try.

I suspect the reference about “killing the poor” is in regards to the many abortions among the poor. These days Planned Parenthood likes to distance itself from Margaret Sanger, who was involved in Planned Parenthood from the beginning, but people have long memories. Margaret Sanger was a proponent of eugenics, it’s just that her target was different than Hitler’s.

Who has these abortions? Whom does Planned Parenthood pray upon (sorry to those I offend but I think Planned Parenthood is a predetory organization)? Why do these people have these abortions?

As for “taking other people’s money”, the essence of income redistribution is to take money from income earners in the form of taxation and provide it to others in the form of welfare. Those programs have been in place for over 40 years. If they worked, there shouldn’t be any more poor people, but there still are millions of them.

I think it’s time to try education and job training as a means out of poverty, but that’s just me.

Would you say then Welfare is the form of Common Good which Beck speaks of and we should be against it? That taxation for the Common Good of society is a bad thing?

So then in the words of Mr. Beck if we are to hear that taxation is persmissible and should be obligated to pay these taxes especially for the Common Good of society, we should ignore or run away from that church?

Would you say the politician elected by his constituants especially if he is Christian is given a pass and could use the tax revenues to fund wars, subsidize businesses which prefer to do business with brutal dictatorships?

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Whom does Planned Parenthood pray upon (sorry to those I offend but I think Planned Parenthood is a predetory organization)?

Because they make a fortune doing them

 

[josephdavid]

Because they make a fortune doing them

I was asking a question. Let me phrase that question a different way: "Who are having the abortions? Is it overhwhelmingly the poor? Why are they chosing to kill a child?

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

I was asking a question. Let me phrase that question a different way: "Who are having the abortions? Is it overhwhelmingly the poor? Why are they chosing to kill a child?

Ahh, OK. Got ya. My apologies.

Here is an article: washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/22/AR2008092202831.html

 

[Catherine_D]

Who has these abortions? Whom does Planned Parenthood pray upon (sorry to those I offend but I think Planned Parenthood is a predetory organization)? Why do these people have these abortions?

Would you say then Welfare is the form of Common Good which Beck speaks of and we should be against it? That taxation for the Common Good of society is a bad thing?

So then in the words of Mr. Beck if we are to hear that taxation is persmissible and should be obligated to pay these taxes especially for the Common Good of society, we should ignore or run away from that church?

To address your questions one at a time:

• Many poor women get abortions. I don’t know that I would characterize Planned Parenthood as a “predatory” organization, but they do a lot of abortions. I can’t possibly tell you why the women get abortions, that’s an individual decision. The number of abortions is so huge that sometimes I wonder if women are using it as a means of “birth control”, but I haven’t researched as to whether there is any data to suggest that.
• I don’t know what Glenn Beck means by the “Common Good”, but I doubt he supports huge wealth re-destribution programs run by the Federal Government. I suspect he would, and very likely does, support voluntary donations to charitable organizations.
• I don’t know what you mean by your last question.

 

[mary_bobo]

Frankly instead of Beck’s and the Tea Party movements I’d like to see one behind Dennis Kucinich and Bernie. Other than they caving on the public option to get @ least something passed, I believe the world would be a much better place with more social Democrats like Dennis and Bernie.

If there were enough people who believed this way, it would sell. Fortunately there are not. This country, believe it or not, is right of center in personal behavior.

 

[Via_Dolorosa]

If there were enough people who believed this way, it would sell. Fortunately there are not. This country, believe it or not, is right of center in personal behavior.

Maybe in self proclaimed personal behavior. Maybe. that doesn’t mean that most people live up to what they proclaim to be.

 

[josephdavid]

To address your questions one at a time:

I don’t know that I would characterize Planned Parenthood as a “predatory” organization, but they do a lot of abortions. .

I would because they have been cited by many states for wrong doings, pressuring and misinformation. The lobby against providing ultrasounds or advising people what the procedure is. Planned Parenthood lobbies against parental notification against minors’ parents.

I

can’t possibly tell you why the women get abortions, that’s an individual decision. The number of abortions is so huge that sometimes I wonder if women are using it as a means of “birth control”, but I haven’t researched as to whether there is any data to suggest that.

Guttmacher Institute studies these trends. Overwhelmingly site economic hardship why they have an abortion. I also believe the abortion rate went up the past 2 years.

• I don’t know what Glenn Beck means by the “Common Good”, but I doubt he supports huge wealth re-destribution programs run by the Federal Government. I suspect he would, and very likely does, support voluntary donations to charitable organizations.
• I don’t know what you mean by your last question.

]

What if I told you the Catholic Church says taxation is obligatory and should be used for the Common Good, especially for the disadvantaged?

 

[Suudy]

What if I told you the Catholic Church says taxation is obligatory and should be used for the Common Good, especially for the disadvantaged?

Then I hope you would also cite the relevant passages on subsidiarity. Also with that comes the notion that family and community come before government in providing for the good.

Beck, as much as I know of his position (which isn’t very much), is at least consistent with Church teaching in that respect.

 

[Andrew1983]

Frankly instead of Beck’s and the Tea Party movements I’d like to see one behind Dennis Kucinich and Bernie. Other than they caving on the public option to get @ least something passed, I believe the world would be a much better place with more social Democrats like Dennis and Bernie.

I don’t, but then again I deify God and not Gov’t. Quite honestly, Beck is doing this country a service. Better yet, since Dennis Kucinich is someone whom you idolize, let’s say he held the rally instead of Beck but gave the exact same speech. Would you be as against Kucinich as you are Beck? Did you even bother to watch the event? I’m sure you can look it up on Youtube.

Perhaps the only political jab against Obama was made by Sarah Palin and that was about resisting fundamental transformation and instead embracing values restoration.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

What if I told you the Catholic Church says taxation is obligatory and should be used for the Common Good, especially for the disadvantaged?

I would tell you that the church has no authority to teach this. The authority of the Magesterium extends solely to matters of faith and morals, i.e., what is necessary for salvation. It does not extend to secular matters such a civil governance, with the exception of those area that intersect with faith or morals, such as abortion or cloning (for example). Since the particulars of care for the poor have multiple plausible solutions, of which taxation is simply one viable one, then they have no authority to infallibly declare that taxation is necessary.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Oye, Dennis Kucinich? Seriously?

 

[Suudy]

I would tell you that the church has no authority to teach this. The authority of the Magesterium extends solely to matters of faith and morals, i.e., what is necessary for salvation. It does not extend to secular matters such a civil governance, with the exception of those area that intersect with faith or morals, such as abortion or cloning (for example). Since the particulars of care for the poor have multiple plausible solutions, of which taxation is simply one viable one, then they have no authority to infallibly declare that taxation is necessary.

Indeed! Great post!

But I feel the need to cexpound a bit. The Church has the authority to infallibly declare what must be done (and the Scriptures make it clear that care for the poor and needy is one of them), but not how it is to be done. And in fact the Church has made no statement on how it must be done. It has indicated that some ways are better than others. And certainly a solution involving the federal government is not one of them.

 

[josephdavid]

I would tell you that the church has no authority to teach this. The authority of the Magesterium extends solely to matters of faith and morals, i.e., what is necessary for salvation. It does not extend to secular matters such a civil governance, with the exception of those area that intersect with faith or morals, such as abortion or cloning (for example). Since the particulars of care for the poor have multiple plausible solutions, of which taxation is simply one viable one, then they have no authority to infallibly declare that taxation is necessary.

From CCC:

Duties of civil authorities

2235 Those who exercise authority should do so as a service. "Whoever would be great among you must be your servant."41 The exercise of authority is measured morally in terms of its divine origin, its reasonable nature and its specific object. No one can command or establish what is contrary to the dignity of persons and the natural law.

2236 The exercise of authority is meant to give outward expression to a just hierarchy of values in order to facilitate the exercise of freedom and responsibility by all. Those in authority should practice distributive justice wisely, taking account of the needs and contribution of each, with a view to harmony and peace. They should take care that the regulations and measures they adopt are not a source of temptation by setting personal interest against that of the community.42

2237 Political authorities are obliged to respect the fundamental rights of the human person. They will dispense justice humanely by respecting the rights of everyone, especially of families and the disadvantaged.

The political rights attached to citizenship can and should be granted according to the requirements of the common good. They cannot be suspended by public authorities without legitimate and proportionate reasons. Political rights are meant to be exercised for the common good of the nation and the human community.

The duties of citizens

2238 Those subject to authority should regard those in authority as representatives of God, who has made them stewards of his gifts:43 "Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution. . . . Live as free men, yet without using your freedom as a pretext for evil; but live as servants of God."44 Their loyal collaboration includes the right, and at times the duty, to voice their just criticisms of that which seems harmful to the dignity of persons and to the good of the community.

2239 It is the duty of citizens to contribute along with the civil authorities to the good of society in a spirit of truth, justice, solidarity, and freedom. The love and service of one’s country follow from the duty of gratitude and belong to the order of charity. Submission to legitimate authorities and service of the common good require citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community.

2240 Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one’s country:

Pay to all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.45
[Christians] reside in their own nations, but as resident aliens. They participate in all things as citizens and endure all things as foreigners. . . . They obey the established laws and their way of life surpasses the laws. . . . So noble is the position to which God has assigned them that they are not allowed to desert it.46

The Apostle exhorts us to offer prayers and thanksgiving for kings and all who exercise authority, "that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way."47

 

[josephdavid]

Indeed! Great post!

But I feel the need to cexpound a bit. The Church has the authority to infallibly declare what must be done (and the Scriptures make it clear that care for the poor and needy is one of them), but not how it is to be done. And in fact the Church has made no statement on how it must be done. It has indicated that some ways are better than others. And certainly a solution involving the federal government is not one of them.

You are right that Church does not say exactly how social justice is dictated but as long at it is for the Common Good for all man and all society. Not just for a select few. That the government has an obligation as much to protect the most vulnerable.

Government can not restrict man to a certain faith, government can not restrict where one person can move or another, can not interfere with how we teach our children (e.g.thus it is legal to send your children to private schools or home schooling)

 

[Suudy]

From CCC:

Are you really going to go down this road again? Where do these quotes tie into charity? Where do the extol the government to provide for the needy?

There never has been confusion on rendering unto Caesar. But there has been a question of what Caesar should do with what has been rendered.

I note you failed to include 1883 and 2431 to put your quotes into perspective.

 

[Suudy]

You are right that Church does not say exactly how social justice is dictated but as long at it is for the Common Good for all man and all society. Not just for a select few. That the government has an obligation as much to protect the most vulnerable.

Government can not restrict man to a certain faith, government can not restrict where one person can move or another, can not interfere with how we teach our children (e.g.thus it is legal to send your children to private schools or home schooling)

Only when the lower orders of society are unable to do so. You are ignoring subsidiarity. Where do you see a call for the federal government to do this?

 

[josephdavid]

Only when the lower orders of society are unable to do so. You are ignoring subsidiarity. Where do you see a call for the federal government to do this?

I am not ignoring the subsidarity.

And in many cases they do so. When the States have gaps in fullfilling the expendetures towards public education, the Federal government will assist in funding. However the States and the local communities dictate the larger policies which are taught in the public schools.

Federal government will assist the State in funding interstate highway programs.

There are laws in our Constitution which gives States rights, unless it is a case of interstate commerce.

Now for example the minimum wage, in some States the minimum wage is higher than other States. The Federal government does not interfere with those states and makes them come down to the Federal set standard. Why? Because the State’s law in this case is stronger and better than the Federal Standards.