Gnostic Atheism

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No one has ever said that I deserve to be (and will be) tortured forever for not believing in unicorns.
No one has ever said that I can’t effectively ground my ethics without a belief in unicorns or has implied that I am untrustworthy and likely to commit acts of theft, murder, or rape because of it.
No one has ever said that I can never be a good husband or father because I don’t believe in unicorns.
No one has ever tried to use the death of a loved one as a means to attempt to emotionally manipulate me into believing in unicorns.
No one has ever said that people who don’t believe in unicorns aren’t real Americans, can’t be real patriots, can’t hold public office, or that our presence will doom the nation.
No one has ever blamed earthquakes, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, and more on an increase of people who don’t believe in unicorns.
No part of the word is currently engulfed in decades-long violence due to people believing opposing things about unicorns.
No one has ever challenged me to explain the origin of the universe or of life since I can’t explain it through unicorn magic. No one is trying to have the unicorn theory of creating taught in public schools.
No one is actively trying to deny another group’s civil rights because they believe it’s the will of the unicorns.

But if we’re talking about God instead of unicorns, yeah, all that stuff and more.

Simply put, belief if God is not only more common than belief in all the other things you listed, it’s also more consequential.
Everything you have listed are things taught by various religions - with the exception of people who don’t believe in God aren’t real Americans. I personally don’t know of any religion that teaches that. That is not to say there are people who believe in God think that.

The reason I posed the question is I am of the opinion the issue is not belief in God, but religion. Your post would suggest there is some substance to my opinion.
 
Everything you have listed are things taught by various religions - with the exception of people who don’t believe in God aren’t real Americans. I personally don’t know of any religion that teaches that. That is not to say no one who believes in God thinks that.

The reason I posed the question is I am of the opinion the issue is not belief in God, but religion. Your post would suggest there is some substance to my opinion.
Ignore this
 
No one has ever said that I deserve to be (and will be) tortured forever for not believing in unicorns.
No one has ever said that I can’t effectively ground my ethics without a belief in unicorns or has implied that I am untrustworthy and likely to commit acts of theft, murder, or rape because of it.
No one has ever said that I can never be a good husband or father because I don’t believe in unicorns.
No one has ever tried to use the death of a loved one as a means to attempt to emotionally manipulate me into believing in unicorns.
No one has ever said that people who don’t believe in unicorns aren’t real Americans, can’t be real patriots, can’t hold public office, or that our presence will doom the nation.
No one has ever blamed earthquakes, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, and more on an increase of people who don’t believe in unicorns.
No part of the word is currently engulfed in decades-long violence due to people believing opposing things about unicorns.
No one has ever challenged me to explain the origin of the universe or of life since I can’t explain it through unicorn magic. No one is trying to have the unicorn theory of creating taught in public schools.
No one is actively trying to deny another group’s civil rights because they believe it’s the will of the unicorns.

But if we’re talking about God instead of unicorns, yeah, all that stuff and more.

Simply put, belief if God is not only more common than belief in all the other things you listed, it’s also more consequential.
There are many people who believe in God who would not subscribe to or endorse any of the things you have listed.
 
There are many people who believe in God who would not subscribe to or endorse any of the things you have listed.
Most atheists read theology and scripture as fundamentalists.
They construct a straw man god that almost noone actually believes in.
They’ve either had very negative and false experiences of Christianity or they construct a straw man cause it’s easy to burn down.

In any case, atheists very rarely attack the true God as expressed by the CC, but a caricature of him.
 
If we direct ourselves to the greatest good, we do good for ourself - and thus do good for other human beings.
The phrase “greatest good” is just a meaningless mumbo-jumbo. There are zillions of good actions. We do not need to believe in some God to know that some actions are beneficial and some actions are harmful. Beneficial and harmful refer to biology - in the widest sense, both physically and mentally.
Of course, that’s not only my personal definition.
The word “you” can be both singular and plural. Do I have to say every time: “you (in general, not particular)”? As a matter of fact, when I mean “you” as “personally you”, actually write it like that. Unqualified “you” is always “generic you”.
I mean, you can’t have it both ways. You’re on a Catholic site, arguing with Catholics about God. If you have a different definition of who God is, then you could explain that. In Catholicism God is defined via a number of attributes and that’s one way we have to discuss who God is. It’s the First Cause argument and the impossibility of an infinite regress - so, it’s logical.
I am arguing against certain “attributes” of God. The basic Christian definition of God is the “creator of the universe”. Nothing else. The rest you need to substantiate by observing the universe. That some theologians and philosophers tried to attach some extra attributes to God is not just plain problematic, it is the foundation of the problems.
God is the perfection of Goodness because he is the fullness of Being. There is no perfection lacking in Him because if there was, how would it occur? A lack of perfection would be a potential for improvement. But in an infinite being, timeless - there can be no opportunity left for improving. Plus, there could be nothing greater than God to provide the improvement. If there was something greater than God, then that thing would be God. That would continue infinitely - thus an infinite regress which is illogical.
Eventually, we must have a First Cause of Being. And that First Cause must possess the Fullness of Being, because there could be no additional Being beyond it - and where there is a fullness, there is no lack. Where there is no lack there is no evil. Where there is no evil, there is the fullness of Good…
This is not the correct thread about the “first cause” argument. In a nutshell, the word “perfection” without a specific referent is nonsense. You can speak of a “perfect bullet”, which can penetrate any shield, or about a “perfect shield”, which can withstand any bullet, but there is no “generic perfection”. You cannot even describe a “perfect dinner”.
 
I am arguing against certain “attributes” of God. The basic Christian definition of God is the “creator of the universe”. Nothing else.
Then you do not understand the Christian God.

The basic Christian definition of God is this:
God is love.
From there all else flows.
 
Most atheists read theology and scripture as fundamentalists.
They construct a straw man god that almost noone actually believes in.
They’ve either had very negative and false experiences of Christianity or they construct a straw man cause it’s easy to burn down.

In any case, atheists very rarely attack the true God as expressed by the CC, but a caricature of him.
I agree atheists characteristically read theology and scripture as fundamentalists.

I would also say they seem reluctant to draw a distinction between religious fundamentalists and others who believe in God who are not. We all seem to get tarred with the one brush.

I have also encountered many atheists who have become atheists as a consequence of negative and false experiences of Christianity rather than ‘there is no evidence.’ In fact I have yet to meet the atheist in person where an intrinsic link cannot be established between their decision to be an atheist and bad experiences with religion. Perhaps it is for this reason many atheists I have encountered come across as very embittered against religion, and this is why they are reluctant to draw a distinction between religious fundamentalists and others who believe in God who are not. They categorically deny any embitterment, but their words and actions strongly suggest otherwise.
 
Educated himself out of intelligence…

No atheists in a foxhole. I say put them all in the Marine Corps and throw them on the front lines, see what they say then.
They would just say that you are emotional manipulatng yourself to believe that death is not final.
 
Then you do not understand the Christian God.

The basic Christian definition of God is this:
God is love.
From there all else flows.
I suggest you take a remedial course in English 101. Then at least you would not spew forth such linguistic nonsense.
I agree atheists characteristically read theology and scripture as fundamentalists.
Really? Fundamentalists consider the bible as literally precise and correct in every detail. Atheists read the bible as a collection of ancient documents, which contain a few historically correct references, but mostly just stories without any ground in reality.

There is one positive thing to be said about fundamentalists, at least they are consistent in interpreting the bible. Catholics are not. Catholics pick and choose which parts of the bible are historically correct and which parts are allegorical. The problem is that the “magisterium” did not create an authoritative enumeration of the historically correct and the “fairy tale” type of texts, so the Catholic “apologists” play hide and seek. 🙂

The same text is considered historically correct sometimes, and merely allegorical the next time. It is another “Cafeteria” approach.

So, no. There is nothing even remotely similar between the fundamentalist and atheist approach in reading the bible. This accusation comes up when the apologist runs out of all the arguments, and does not want to admit it. A typical approach of the intellectually dishonest “debater”.
 
Do you not believe that parts of the Bible were written as allegory?
 
Really? Fundamentalists consider the bible as literally precise and correct in every detail. Atheists read the bible as a collection of ancient documents, which contain a few historically correct references, but mostly just stories without any ground in reality.
That’s interesting - as I’ve had many an atheist tell me I should read the Bible like a fundamentalist.
There is one positive thing to be said about fundamentalists, at least they are consistent in interpreting the bible. Catholics are not. Catholics pick and choose which parts of the bible are historically correct and which parts are allegorical. The problem is that the “magisterium” did not create an authoritative enumeration of the historically correct and the “fairy tale” type of texts, so the Catholic “apologists” play hide and seek. 🙂
It’s also good to know you have a marginally less disparaging opinion of fundamentalists than Catholics.

I would guess you know very little concerning how Catholics read the Bible. Why don’t you tell me how I read it? I believe you have the capacity to know what I what I say in advance. An example would be good - as opposed to ranting. Personally I don’t see any great skill or degree of persuasiveness in ranting, but you of course are free to disagree and consider this intellectual honesty.
So, no. There is nothing even remotely similar between the fundamentalist and atheist approach in reading the bible. This accusation comes up when the apologist runs out of all the arguments, and does not want to admit it. A typical approach of the intellectually dishonest “debater”.
Not to you - and you are free to go on believing that, but there is to me and I am not alone in that thought. There is no reason to believe your views should be favoured over anyone else’s any more than there is a reason to favour mine.

It was not an accusation - but then you know it wasn’t.

I’m not an apologist - but then you know that as well.

How could you possibly know whether or not I have run out of arguments? Or is it the case you tar all Catholics - and in fact anyone who believes in God with one brush as I suggested?

You certainly have an odd way of demonstrating intellectual honest - assuming of course that is what you are trying to.

Any word on where you read your ‘Catholic definitions’ of justice, grace and mercy yet?
 
I am arguing against certain “attributes” of God. The basic Christian definition of God is the “creator of the universe”.
To be a creator of the universe requires certain attributes which are necessarily part of the definition of God. Claiming that one statement as “the basic Christian definition” is absurd and laughable.
But I’ll just repeat what others pointed out – you don’t know what you’re talking about.
You’re on a Christian site making proclamations about what you think the Christian definition of God is – offering zero references to back that up.
Where did you get your knowledge of Christianity? What have you read and studied about Catholicism?
Failing to show any expertise in the subject area will only make you appear more ignorant than you would like.
 
I suggest you take a remedial course in English 101. Then at least you would not spew forth such linguistic nonsense.
it’s against forum rules to insult the poster rather than address the argument.

Reason works better than assertions.
You made a statement about the definition of God that isn’t a Christian definition, or at best a very minimalist definition.
 
This is not the correct thread about the “first cause” argument. In a nutshell, the word “perfection” without a specific referent is nonsense. You can speak of a “perfect bullet”, which can penetrate any shield, or about a “perfect shield”, which can withstand any bullet, but there is no “generic perfection”. You cannot even describe a “perfect dinner”.
The referent in this case, when we use the term perfection is Being.
Nothing like a bullet, or a shield or a dinner or an island can be considered to possess perfection of Being - which is completeness or fullness of existence. All of the qualities of existence in their fullest dimension would be perfection, That is, Being without flaw or defect.

There cannot be a perfect bullet because bullets have a finite existence, finite power, finite purpose. To say “this is the perfect bullet” would mean that there could not be one greater. But there can be an infinite number greater because the qualities used to describe the perfections are limited and can be transcended. To say “this is the perfect bullet for penetrating that shield” is putting an arbitrary limit or purpose on the thing. The bullet can penetrate that shield but it will disintegrate after and go out of existence. Another bullet can penetrate that shield and another. But a more perfect bullet can exist. But this is an infinite regress of finite things - an impossibility and nothing explains the origin or existence of these infinite number of bullets.

The term perfection references an ultimate being. That’s how we know what the word means. If we see a flaw, a limit, a dependency, a composition, a finiteness … it is easy to see a lack of perfection. A being where there is no flaw or limit or composition is what we point to at the ultimate end of the measurement scale - whenever we judge the value of anything.
The phrase “greatest good” is just a meaningless mumbo-jumbo. There are zillions of good actions.
You judge an action good based on its purpose, intention, effect, outcome and other factors. If you are not able to determine the difference in quality between one good and another, then you wouldn’t know the difference in value between an heroic act of a person, sacrificing himself to save hundreds of lives, and the act of eating a sandwich. Both are good acts. But you can’t tell the difference in the quality of goodness of them?

As you look at good acts in that light, you can recognize a greater good from a lesser good. The act of saving many lives is a greater good. If to save a life is good – how would we rate the act of giving or creating life?

It’s only a small step further to rate the act of creating and giving all life.
 
There are many people who believe in God who would not subscribe to or endorse any of the things you have listed.
Indeed.

As Bishop Barron says, in dialogue with atheists: I reject the same God you reject.
 
That is not correct. The number of universes that we could do different things is infinite therefore it is possible to find universe that people always do good.
Oh, no doubt.

And in that universe it would be populated by robots.
 
No one is actively trying to deny another group’s civil rights because they believe it’s the will of the unicorns
Now wait just a cotton-pickin’ minute, KtS.

If you haven’t heard an argument against gay marriage that never appeals to “Because God says so” you need to do a bit more studying.

All of us who are against gay marriage should be able to argue against its morality without ever appealing to the Bible, to God, to Catholicism.
 
I love how this thread has completely proven the point that I was making. The demand that atheists have to prove God doesn’t exist is a shell game.
The fundamental tenet of philosophical debate that “the burden of proof rests upon the claimant” is a “shell game”?

“God doesn’t exist” is a claim.
If someone points out a contradiction between being all merciful and all just, it suddenly becomes a debate about what justice and mercy really mean.
And welcome to “semantics”.

Most of the debates I’ve been involved in never move beyond this stage because the differing meaning or nuance of the basic terms involved is usually what gives rise to the difference being debated.

“If you wish to converse with me, define your terms.” - Voltaire.
Up until yesterday, most people on this forum would probably have excepted the dictionary definitions of those two words, and probably wouldn’t have batted an eyelash over the idea that you can’t do both at the same time.
You mean to tell me that the meaning of a word can be dependent upon the context?!? Especially under technical usage?!? Who knew?!?:eek::eek::eek:
 
Now wait just a cotton-pickin’ minute, KtS.

If you haven’t heard an argument against gay marriage that never appeals to “Because God says so” you need to do a bit more studying.

All of us who are against gay marriage should be able to argue against its morality without ever appealing to the Bible, to God, to Catholicism.
The atheist’s favorite straw-man. That poor fellow gets the exercise, doesn’t he?
 
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