Gnostic Elements in Early Catholicism

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would like to point out that the use of Chrism is used within scripture for blessings. For example, in the epistle of James it speaks of using Chrism for the purpose of blessing and praying for those who are dying. The Jews would annoint their kings with Chrism.
The Roman world more or less ran on oil–olive oil. Oil was by the Jews for various religious rituals, and certainly for anointing, as when David was anointed. But it was also used by all other cults, including Roman cults. One of the reasons Christians were murdered back then was that they refused to offer oil to the emperor.

Pistis has squat to do with it.

May God grant you a million miracles, Annem
 
They want to talk to another sheep and get angry when they hear a goat.
Not me. I love goats. Especially stupid ones.

May God grant you a million miracles, ANnem
 
My goodness, you do need to do some reading. Start with Macabees, which will show you how Jews at time felt about being Hellenized. Then try Hengel’s “Judaism and Hellenism”

Then, again, you do not know what you are talking about. The Gnostic schools were small and elite. Not pervasive. Try reading Petrement’s “A Separate God”

False. Vast majority of scholars date Pistis to around 250. So, sorry, but you are very wrong. Would you like a list of books on the subject?
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  1. The writer of Mac did not consider his writing inspired.
  2. Gnosticism was pre-Christian and also influenced Judaism
  3. If Valentinus was the author, PS is 150 AD. But lets say 150-250.
 
Gnostics arrived a hundred years after all the major dogmas of Christianity were in place. Second Temple Jews, as all the archaeological and historical research has shown, were fierce monotheists, not dabblers in Hellenistic philosophy. Remember the two wars they fought? Recall the archaeological evidence?

May God grant you a million miracles, Annem ,
what about philo? and the hellenistic Jews in Acts 5?
 
John and 1 John are written against gnostic influences in the Church, or so they teach us.
 
  1. The writer of Mac did not consider his writing inspired.
  2. Gnosticism was pre-Christian and also influenced Judaism
  3. If Valentinus was the author, PS is 150 AD. But lets say 150-250.
  1. Sorry to be dense, but I don’t understand your argument. There was no agreed upon canon for any books in the Old Testament, and there wouldn’t be a canon for some time afterwards. Yet Mac clearly shows the willingness of Jews to die rather than alter any aspect of their religion. Also, it clearly shows prayers to the dead.
  2. Sorry, but this is wrong. There is no proof of any Gnostic school until 100 years after the start of Christianity. And by that time, as 1 Clement and the letters of Ignatius show, not to mention the books of the New Testament, most of the important dogmas were already in place. So was a functioning church, with bishops, etc.
  3. I disagree strongly. The overwhelming majority of scholars put Pistis at 250; some as early as 200. Even then, it’s only an obscure Gnostic text as compared to the wildly popular and much read Protoevangelium.
May God grant you a million miracles, Annem
 
what about philo? and the hellenistic Jews in Acts 5?
I was certainly too tired and writing too fast last night. I should have put it much more clearly.

Here is the general agreement of most scholars today as I understand it: Hellenism was pervasive throughout most of the western cultures. However, as Tessa Rajak recently argued, the hellenizatioin of the Mediterranean world left the original cultures inteact. It was more of a veneer.

This was especially true for the Jews. In fact, as Martin Hengel argued it was because of they were surrounded by pagan cultures that the Jews became much more resistant to even the slightest hint of any alteration of their monotheisim.

Of course many Jews rejected Hellenistic religious influences from the get go, but during and after the time of Maccabees, all evidence of religious syncretism among the Jews vanishes entirely. Before that time, there is archaeological evidence for some religious syncretism. Not after. iTheir reaction to any hint of paganism was fanatical.

Philo is interesting. In his case, he fully understood the Greek philosophers and used their arguments, but only to explain Judaism. In a sense, this is what later Christian theologians would do in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, much to the benefit of the church.

May God grant you a million miracles, Annem
 
John and 1 John are written against gnostic influences in the Church, or so they teach us.
This was certainly the argument for some time, especially in the 80’s. However, there simply is no real evidence of any Gnostics until after 100 years after the start of Christianity. What’s her name, April Deconick (?) recently published a book arguing that the gospel of John was written against the Gnostics, so the argument continues.

However, as I said, nobody can point to a single instance of an actual Gnostic until quite some time after John. Not that I know about.

May God grant you a million miracles. Annem
 
Origen was before Ambrose so Ambrose could not be his patron.
This Ambrose was a deacon in Alexandria who had been a Valentinian Gnostic.

“Composed c. 233, the treatise on Prayer is not merely a treatise, but a prayer itself. The Exhortation was composed c. 235 to provide solace for Origen’s great friend and patron, Ambrose, and the presbyter, Protoctetus, both of whom had been imprisoned.” 209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:WAd2pxexch0J:orthodoxbookstore.ecrater.com/product.php%3Fpid%3D2358618+On+Prayer+Origen+ambrose+patron&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

“Origen’s principal apologetical work is the treatise Against Celsus, in eight books. Celsus was a learned Platonist, firmly attached to the national religion…would, in all probability, have remained unnoticed, had not Origen brought it into prominence by writing, c. 244-249, a refutation of it at the request of his friend Ambrose.” earlychristianwritings.com/tixeront/section1-5.html
 
You guys are out of my depth. I will keep reading but probably not contribute.
 
This was certainly the argument for some time, especially in the 80’s. However, there simply is no real evidence of any Gnostics until after 100 years after the start of Christianity. What’s her name, April Deconick (?) recently published a book arguing that the gospel of John was written against the Gnostics, so the argument continues.

However, as I said, nobody can point to a single instance of an actual Gnostic until quite some time after John. Not that I know about.

May God grant you a million miracles. Annem
What was the Theraputae Community near Alexandria pre-dating Christianity and who were the Theravada?

“Asceticism is indigenous to the religions which posit as fundamental the wickedness of this life and the corruption under sin of the flesh. Buddhism, therefore, as well as Christianity, leads to ascetic practices. Monasteries are institutions of Buddhism no less than of Catholic Christianity. The assumption, found in the views of the Montanists and others, that concessions made to the natural appetites may be pardoned in those that are of a lower degree of holiness, while the perfectly holy will refuse to yield in the least to carnal needs and desires, is easily detected also in some of the teachings of Gautama Buddha. The ideal of holiness of both the Buddhist and the Christian saint culminates in poverty and chastity; i.e., celibacy. Fasting and other disciplinary methods are resorted to curb the flesh.” —The Jewish Encyclopedia

Then one can go back to Pythagorean ascetic celibate communities contemporary with Buddha, followed by Plato, and then these inflences on pagan Roman society affecting the rise of Gnostic Christianity and some ECF’s.
 
Gnostics arrived a hundred years after all the major dogmas of Christianity were in place. Second Temple Jews, as all the archaeological and historical research has shown, were fierce monotheists, not dabblers in Hellenistic philosophy. Remember the two wars they fought? Recall the archaeological evidence?

May God grant you a million miracles, Annem ,
The following is from Italian Studies on Philo of Alexandria by Francesca Calabi; Brill Academic Publishers, 2003.

"…some of Plotinus’ themes are similar, at least conceptually if not literally, to what we find in Philo. Indeed, at Enneads, 11.9.6.lff., we find the following:

And what ought one to say of the other beings they introduce, their ‘Exiles’ (paroikeseis) and Impressions' (antitupous) and Repentings’ (metanoias)? For if they say that these are afIections of the soul, when it has changed its purpose, and ‘Impressions’ when it is contemplating, in a way, images of realities and not the realities themselves, then these are the terms of people inventing a new jargon to recommend their own school: they contrive this meretricious language as if they had no connection with the ancient Hellenic school, though the Hellenes knew all this and knew it clearly, and spoke without delusive pomposity of ascents from the cave and advancing gradually closer and closer to a truer vision. Generally speaking, some of these peoples’ doctrines have been taken from Plato, but others, all the new ideas they have brought in to establish a philosophy of their own, are things they have found outside the truth." (Calabi 179)

Philo (20 BC-50AD): His “doctrine of the body as the source of all evil corresponds entirely with the Neo-Pythagorean doctrine…”
 
Hi. No, the Theraputae weren’t even proto Gnostics. Although there were vague, proto Gnostic ideas floating around. Certainly there were ascetic communities of one kind or another.

Here seems to be the timeline: Christianity for a hundred years. The impact of Christian ideas seem have been explosive (see Pliny), which then caused the start of various Gnostic philosophies or schools. The real growth for Gnostics seems to be in the 300’s however, after Christianity was established everywhere.

I believe Philo merely proves the point. Philo was an apologist for Jews, just as Clement was later an apologist for Christians. They would have opposed, likely with their lives, the smallest alteration in the real dogmas of their religion. Yet they felt perfectly comfortable with borrowing and using Greek philosophical ideas to express, or put a gloss on their beliefs, or even to use them where applicable. .

It looks like you live in Kona, one of the most wonderful places in the world to live. I’ve been there many times, but that library is SMALL and even the Borders you have there is too small for my taste. If you want to get Hengel’s book or Petrement’s or any others, go ahead and order through inter library loan. I’ll still be here in 3 weeks or 7 weeks–or however long the library system takes.

May God grant you a million miracles, Annem
 
Hi. No, the Theraputae weren’t even proto Gnostics. Although there were vague, proto Gnostic ideas floating around. Certainly there were ascetic communities of one kind or another.

Here seems to be the timeline: Christianity for a hundred years. The impact of Christian ideas seem have been explosive (see Pliny), which then caused the start of various Gnostic philosophies or schools. The real growth for Gnostics seems to be in the 300’s however, after Christianity was established everywhere.

I believe Philo merely proves the point. Philo was an apologist for Jews, just as Clement was later an apologist for Christians. They would have opposed, likely with their lives, the smallest alteration in the real dogmas of their religion. Yet they felt perfectly comfortable with borrowing and using Greek philosophical ideas to express, or put a gloss on their beliefs, or even to use them where applicable. .

It looks like you live in Kona, one of the most wonderful places in the world to live. I’ve been there many times, but that library is SMALL and even the Borders you have there is too small for my taste. If you want to get Hengel’s book or Petrement’s or any others, go ahead and order through inter library loan. I’ll still be here in 3 weeks or 7 weeks–or however long the library system takes.

May God grant you a million miracles, Annem
Philo had opposed the Hellenistic ideas that later merged with Christianity to become Gnostic Christianity; some of these ideas are mentioned and opposed in the New Testament. Rather than discuss the term “gnostic” it may be more to the point to discuss the ideas that pre-date Christianity and ideas that emerged in the apocryphal and false gospels, acts, and apocalypses that were found in Nag Hammadi, etc. Origen and others were enamoured with Greek philosophy and incorporated these Platonic ideas into his First Principles, including the notion of souls re-existence and entry into bodies at varying distances from God with the goal to regain union with God through ascetic celibate contemplative practice. Added to this was the idea of purification through denial of bodily desires and after death through purifying fire.
 
Rather than discuss the term “gnostic” it may be more to the point to discuss the ideas that pre-date Christianity and ideas that emerged in the apocryphal and false gospels, acts, and apocalypses that were found in Nag Hammadi, etc. Origen and others were
Sure. Sounds interesting.

May God grant you a million miracles, Annem
 
Here are some quotes from Plato, first on asceticism and then on purgatory.

ASCETICISM

Phaedo by Plato
Portrait of Socrates: Being the Apology, Crito, and Phaedo of Plato in an English translation by R. W. Livingstone; Clarendon Press, 1938.
“13. The virtue which is severed from wisdom and depends on these exchanges, is a painted show of virtue only, nor is there any freedom or health or truth in her; but thereality consists in a purification from all these things, and in temperance, and justice, and courage; and wisdom herself is a sort of purification. The founders of the Mysteries would appear to have had a real meaning, and were not talking nonsense when they intimated in a metaphor long ago that he who passes unsanctified and uninitiated into the world below will lie in the Slough, but that he who arrives there after initiation and purification will dwell with the gods. For ‘many’, as they say in the Mysteries, ‘are the Thyrsus-bearers, but few are the Mystics’–meaning by the latter, as I interpret the words, ‘the true philosophers’.”

“32. The role of philosophy in life. Starting from a different point from religion, it impresses on men the same lessons as religion–the misleading and transitory nature of the world of the senses, the superior reality of the unseen world. No one who has not studied philosophy and who is not entirely pure when he leaves this world is allowed to enter the company of the gods, but the lover of knowledge only. And this is the reason, Simmias and Cebes, why the true votaries of philosophy abstain from all the desires of the body, and hold out against them and refuse to give themselves up to them-not because they fear poverty or the ruin of their families, like the lovers of money, and the world in general; nor like the lovers of power and honour, because they dread the dishonour or disgrace of wrong conduct.
No, Socrates, that would not become them, said Cebes.
No indeed, he replied; and therefore they who have any care of their own souls, and do not merely live moulding and fashioning the body, turn their backs on all this; they will not walk in the ways of the blind: and when philosophy offers them purification and release from evil, they feel that they ought not to resist her influence, and whither she leads they turn and follow.”

PURGATORY

“62. SUCH is the nature of the other world; and when the dead arrive at the place to which the genius of each severally guides them, first of all, they have sentence passed upon them, as they have lived good and holy lives or not. Those who appear to have lived neither well nor ill go to the river Acheron, and embarking in any vessels which they may find, are carried in them to the lake; there they dwell and are purified of their evil deeds, and having suffered punishment for the wrongs which they have done to others, they are absolved, and receive the rewards of their good deeds, each of them according to his deserts. But those whose crimes are so great that they seem to be incurable–who have committed many and terrible deeds of sacrilege, murders foul and violent, or the like–such are thrown into Tartarus by the fate which is their due, and they never come out. Those, again, who have committed crimes, which, although great, are not irremediable–who in a moment of anger, for example, have done some violence to a father or a mother, and have repented for the remainder of their lives, or who have taken the life of another under the like extenuating circumstances-these are plunged into Tartarus, the pains of which they are compelled to undergo for a year, but at the end of the year the wave casts them forth-mere homicides by way of Cocytus, parricides and matricides by Pyriphlegethon–and they are borne to the Acherusian lake, and there they lift up their voices and call upon the victims whom they have slain or wronged, to have pity on them, and to be kind to them, and let them come out into the lake. If they prevail, then they come forth and cease from their troubles; but if not, they are carried back again into Tartarus and from thence into the rivers unceasingly, until they obtain mercy from those whom they have wronged; for that is the sentence passed upon them by their judges. Those, too, who have been pre-eminent for holiness of life are released from this earthly prison, and go to their pure home which is above, and dwell in the purer earth; and of these, such as have duly purified themselves with philosophy, live henceforth altogether without the body, in mansions fairer still, which may not be described, and of which now I have no time to tell. So, Simmias, seeing all these things, what ought not we to do that we may obtain virtue and wisdom in this life? Fair is the prize, and the hope great!”
 
Well, you’ve certainly found something outside of my area of expertise. I’ve been scrabbling around looking through my books trying to gather information. Let me get back to you tomorrow.

May God grant you a million miracles, Annem
 
Here are some quotes from Plato, first on asceticism and then on purgatory.

ASCETICISM

Phaedo by Plato
Portrait of Socrates: Being the Apology, Crito, and Phaedo of Plato in an English translation by R. W. Livingstone; Clarendon Press, 1938.
“13. The virtue which is severed from wisdom and depends on these exchanges, is a painted show of virtue only, nor is there any freedom or health or truth in her; but thereality consists in a purification from all these things, and in temperance, and justice, and courage; and wisdom herself is a sort of purification. The founders of the Mysteries would appear to have had a real meaning, and were not talking nonsense when they intimated in a metaphor long ago that he who passes unsanctified and uninitiated into the world below will lie in the Slough, but that he who arrives there after initiation and purification will dwell with the gods. For ‘many’, as they say in the Mysteries, ‘are the Thyrsus-bearers, but few are the Mystics’–meaning by the latter, as I interpret the words, ‘the true philosophers’.”

“32. The role of philosophy in life. Starting from a different point from religion, it impresses on men the same lessons as religion–the misleading and transitory nature of the world of the senses, the superior reality of the unseen world. No one who has not studied philosophy and who is not entirely pure when he leaves this world is allowed to enter the company of the gods, but the lover of knowledge only. And this is the reason, Simmias and Cebes, why the true votaries of philosophy abstain from all the desires of the body, and hold out against them and refuse to give themselves up to them-not because they fear poverty or the ruin of their families, like the lovers of money, and the world in general; nor like the lovers of power and honour, because they dread the dishonour or disgrace of wrong conduct.
No, Socrates, that would not become them, said Cebes.
No indeed, he replied; and therefore they who have any care of their own souls, and do not merely live moulding and fashioning the body, turn their backs on all this; they will not walk in the ways of the blind: and when philosophy offers them purification and release from evil, they feel that they ought not to resist her influence, and whither she leads they turn and follow.”
But Jesus really did tell his disciples to give everything away, and to only go out with the clothes on their backs. He truly did tell people that they should avoid the snares of the worldly things. It’s hard for wealthy person to love God as much as a person who is unencumbered by worldly things, including sexual pleasures.

Jesus was no gnostic. He proclaimed true things for all people. Nothing was hidden. All was brought to light.
 
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