Gnostic Elements in Early Catholicism

[LionHeart777]

PURGATORY

“62. SUCH is the nature of the other world; **and when the dead arrive **at the place to which the genius of each severally guides them, first of all, they have sentence passed upon them, as they have lived good and holy lives or not. Those who appear to have lived neither well nor ill go to the river Acheron, and embarking in any vessels which they may find, are carried in them to the lake; there they dwell and are purified of their evil deeds, and having suffered punishment for the wrongs which they have done to others, they are absolved, and receive the rewards of their good deeds, each of them according to his deserts. But those whose crimes are so great that they seem to be incurable–who have committed many and terrible deeds of sacrilege, murders foul and violent, or the like–such are thrown into Tartarus by the fate which is their due, and they never come out. Those, again, who have committed crimes, which, although great, are not irremediable–who in a moment of anger, for example, have done some violence to a father or a mother, and have repented for the remainder of their lives, or who have taken the life of another under the like extenuating circumstances-these are plunged into Tartarus, the pains of which they are compelled to undergo for a year, but at the end of the year the wave casts them forth-mere homicides by way of Cocytus, parricides and matricides by Pyriphlegethon–and they are borne to the Acherusian lake, and there they lift up their voices and call upon the victims whom they have slain or wronged, to have pity on them, and to be kind to them, and let them come out into the lake. If they prevail, then they come forth and cease from their troubles; but if not, they are carried back again into Tartarus and from thence into the rivers unceasingly, until they obtain mercy from those whom they have wronged; for that is the sentence passed upon them by their judges. Those, too, who have been pre-eminent for holiness of life are released from this earthly prison, and go to their pure home which is above, and dwell in the purer earth; and of these, such as have duly purified themselves with philosophy, live henceforth altogether without the body, **in mansions **fairer still, which may not be described, and of which now I have no time to tell. So, Simmias, seeing all these things, what ought not we to do that we may obtain virtue and wisdom in this life? Fair is the prize, and the hope great!”

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seeing anything underlined that parallels the NT?

of course I’m playing “devil’s advocate”

but just b/c two things may be parallel doesn’t mean that 1 borrowed from the other (I believe that 1 of Jimmy Akin’s tracts he wrote regarding the claim that “Catholicism borrowed from paganism” makes this claim.)

the talk of mansions was hundreds of yrs before Jesus brought it up wasn’t it?

so, absent from the OT (I think maybe I’m wrong) and ends up in the NT, this idea must have come from Plato, right?

have you ever heard of the book that has a parrallel to the Titanic, but has nothing to do with it, it’s just a coincidence?

also, wouldn’t the devil know about the spiritual realm, and doesn’t he counterfit?

there are 2 other explanations right there. Let me look for that Titanic story that I heard about on the Bob Ditco show when he was dismantling the lie that “Christianity borrowed from pagan myths.” Notice, the same arguments are levelled against Christianity in general by non-believers.

peace,

ng

 

[LionHeart777]

here is a link that at least gives the book and so on,

titanicbooksite.com/article_robertson_prophet.html

 

[LionHeart777]

have you ever heard of the book that has a parrallel to the Titanic, but has nothing to do with it, it’s just a coincidence?

that would be my fallible opinon

 

[annem]

the talk of mansions was hundreds of yrs before Jesus brought it up wasn’t it?

They used the same word! Why, it’s the same!

I presume you are joking. The two best books by good scholars available today on the subject of Christianity borrowing from pagan myths are “The Jesus Legend” by Boyd and Eddy and “The Gospel and the Greeks” by Nash.

Personally, I would never rely on anything from an internet web site.

May God grant you a million miracles, Annem

 

[annem]

Daniel, This was an interesting area to research, so I thank you for the question. I can
only give you a partial answer since I didn’t have any books at home that dealt in depth on that subject and haven’t had time to get anything out on inter library loan.

It turns out there were a lot of church fathers who wrote on the subject of the intermediate state. Later Protestants complained that Catholics during the Middle Ages based purgatory on this middle state or intermediate state discussed by the church fathers. Seems from my sketchy checking that this is right.

Here are the influences on the early Christian idea of the afterlife and the intermediate state that I could find:

From Judaism the early Christians inherited a belief in Sheol. Scholars are still arguing on all sides of that issue, so I won’t bother to try to define it; suffice to say, it was an afterlife. There seems to have been a vague idea that some were in a higher area in Sheol, and some in a lower.

One insight into Jewish belief in the afterlife was the Book of Enoch. Enoch enjoyed great popularity with both Second Temple Jews and, especially, the early Christians. Enoch describes Sheol as divided into four compartments for four types of the dead: those who will be resurrected into heaven, the somewhat less perfect who await their reward, and the other two levels, the somewhat bad who will be punished and the truly evil who cannot hope for resurrection.

Apparently people read Enoch as if it were a sacred book. Scholars are not agreed about when the Jews closed their canon. They would eventually discard Enoch. However, certainly before 70 AD, it was considered a popular and holy book. Which included the ideas of various levels in the afterlife dependent upon your virtue during life. Certainly, this would have been an influence.

These were the inherited concepts. Earliest Christians certainly believed in heaven and hell (here is Ignatius circa 110: 'Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God). Lots and lots of quotes about those concepts.

But these weren’t the only influences. What appears to have been the largest influence were problematic questions about good Jews who had died and questions about where was Jesus when he spent those three days after death. (For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth See 1 Peter 3:18-20, Ephesians 4:9-10).

Where had the people who rose from their graves after the crucifixion been? They appeared to James and others. What had happened to the righteous who were waiting for Christ to unlock the gates of heaven?

The next thing connected to the intermediate state was the parable of Lazarus. Yes, no kidding, and oddly enough the parable about Lazarus, and Abraham’s bosom, would be the focal point for most arguments made about the intermediate state.

Lazarus was happy and in “Abraham’s bosom” while the rich man was in Hades. Yet church fathers argued Hades was not hell. The rich man could talk to Abraham. And he still had hope for his brothers and compassion for them, showing, again, he couldn’t be in hell. So went the argument.

We find traces of these arguments and hints about how theology was shaping up in these quotes:

In 160 Justin Martyr says “Gnostics…do not admit this intermediate state…” 1.239

And again, from Irenaeus in about 180 “Gnostics are in all points inconsistent with themselves when they declare that all souls do not enter into the intermediate place, but only those of the righteous” 1.403

And again, from Irenaeus about 180 “The Lord states that the rich man recognized Lazarus after death, as well as Abraham…that each class receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment” 1.1411

Then from Clement of Alexandria, c 195: “For it is not right that those persons who died before Christ should be condemned without trial, and that those alone who lived after his coming should have the advantage of the divine righteousness” 2.491.

From Tertullian c 207: Scripture itself…expressly distinguishes between Abraham’s bosom (where the poor man dwells) and Hades. Hades means one thing and ‘Abraham’s bosom’ another. A great gulf is said to separate the regions and to hinder a passages from one to the other" 3.406.

From Tertullian c 207: “This region…I call Abraham’s bosom. Although it is not heaven, it is yet higher than Hades…By Abraham’s bosom is meant some temporary receptacle of faithful souls” 3.406.

Tertullian c 210: As the soul has acted in each individual instance, so proportionably does it suffer in Hades…" 3.557.

After this, the quotes from Tertullian were from his Montanist heretic stage so there’s no point looking at them.

Another common thread in the idea of purgatory was Jesus’ comment to the good thief Luke 23-43 “I say to you , today you will be with me in Paradise”. The church fathers wondered how could that be, when the gates of heaven weren’t open yet? So where did the good thief go? The logical answer was to Sheol, the intermediate state.

I could find no church father reference to Plato on this. Just difficult questions about scripture and an inherited belief from the Jews about Sheol. So it looks to me highly unlikely there is a connection, even in a roundabout way.

I find this quite interesting, so if you want me to delve deeper, I will.

May God grant you a million miracles, Annem

 

[LionHeart777]

I presume you are joking. The two best books by good scholars available today on the subject of Christianity borrowing from pagan myths are “The Jesus Legend” by Boyd and Eddy and “The Gospel and the Greeks” by Nash.

well…plaing “devil’s advocate” like I said, those aren’t my belief’s.

thanks for the rec’s, I have been wanting to read Nash’s book for a while:thumbsup:

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

But Jesus really did tell his disciples to give everything away, and to only go out with the clothes on their backs. He truly did tell people that they should avoid the snares of the worldly things. It’s hard for wealthy person to love God as much as a person who is unencumbered by worldly things, including sexual pleasures.

Jesus was no gnostic. He proclaimed true things for all people. Nothing was hidden. All was brought to light.

It appears that Pythagorean and Platonic ideas separately influenced the development of both gnostic christianity and early catholicism, then through a co-mingling of some gnostic with early catholic ideas in the ECF’s. The New Testament was written in Greek and so some Greek terms are found to describe things like Tartarus. And of course Jesus taught ALL followers to practice radical generosity and care for the poor, etc., as you say “for all people” not just a select group of followers.

But what is not found in the New Testament is most interesting to me.

1. One does not find the idea of higher levels of holiness as in a special class of perfected ones, gnostic pneumatics, Greek philosophers, and catholic saints. One does not find ascetic contemplative practice as the way to achieve the perfected state, as in the way to achieve gnosis, contemplation in Pythagoras/Socrates/Plato, and monastic religious orders in catholicism.
2. One does not find the idea that deceased perfected ones ascend directly to heaven while deceased imperfect ones go through a period of purification in the gnostic rivers of fire, Plato’s lake of purification, or catholic purgatory as described by some ECF’s.
3. One does not find the idea that the celibate state is more holy than the married state, as one finds in gnosticism, Plato, and catholicism necessitating the perpetual virginity of Mary.
4. One does not find an elevated virgin female figure as Mother of the Angels as one finds in gnostic christianity and catholicism.
5. One does not find the notion that everyone is corrupted by the fact they are born into evil flesh, as one finds in the gnostic idea of the evil material world and the catholic idea of inherited sin at conception thus necessitating the immaculate conception of Mary…

 

[annem]

It appears that Pythagorean and Platonic ideas separately influenced the development of both gnostic christianity and early catholicism, then through a co-mingling of some gnostic with early catholic ideas in the ECF’s. The New Testament was written in Greek and so some Greek terms are found to describe things like Tartarus. And of course Jesus taught ALL followers to practice radical generosity and care for the poor, etc., as you say “for all people” not just a select group of followers.

What do you mean by this? Do you mean Catholic dogmas were influenced by Hellenistic ideas? Which dogmas?

Why do you think the Gnostics, who were small groups or schools who arrived a hundred years after Christianity was established, influenced Christianity? Without exception, these heretics were condemned by the church. So on what basis do you claim the Gnostics influenced Christianity? Surely all the evidence is on the other side.

Please explain,.

May God grant you a million miracles, Annem

 

[annem]

1. One does not find the idea of higher levels of holiness as in a special class of perfected ones, gnostic pneumatics, Greek philosophers, and catholic saints. One does not find ascetic contemplative practice as the way to achieve the perfected state, as in the way to achieve gnosis, contemplation in Pythagoras/Socrates/Plato, and monastic religious orders in catholicism.

Surely on the contrary–Christ admonishes us to be perfect, as our heavenly father is perfect. Think of it. Perfection. Utterly without a single angry or lustful thought. Utterly loving. Utterly…perfect. And from day one in the church we see wonderful examples of people living up to this creed, don’t we? Ever read the letters of Ignatius, circa 110 AD?

May God grant you a million miracles, Annem

 

[annem]

1. One does not find the idea that deceased perfected ones ascend directly to heaven while deceased imperfect ones go through a period of purification in the gnostic rivers of fire, Plato’s lake of purification, or catholic purgatory as described by some ECF’s.

Catholics believe that scripture is only ONE LEG of Catholic dogmas and belief. The other leg is sacred tradition, passed on from Christ himself to the apostles and then on to all the Catholics who have lived.

Actually, about purgatory, I don’t even see how you can claim that it came from Plato–and never mind about the Gnostics, who came later. Read the arguments of the early church fathers. Did even one of them bring up Plato’s lake of purification? All the arguments were centered on “Abraham’s bosom”. And also, there is no belief that every person has to go to purgatory.

I am puzzled by your response.

May God grant you a million miracles, Annem

 

[annem]

. One does not find the idea that the celibate state is more holy than the married state, as one finds in gnosticism, Plato, and catholicism necessitating the perpetual virginity of Mary.

1. Your degree of holiness depends upon your cooperation with God’s graces, not your station.
2. However, being celibate is a higher call. You are wrong to state that this idea is not in the bible. Because Christ himself was celibate. And don’t forget the “Blessed are those who become eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven”.

May God grant you a million miracles, Annem

 

[annem]

1. One does not find an elevated virgin female figure as Mother of the Angels as one finds in gnostic christianity and catholicism.

???One does not find what where? Sorry to be dense, but I don’t understand your point here,.

May God grant you a million miracles, Annem

 

[annem]

1. One does not find the notion that everyone is corrupted by the fact they are born into evil flesh, as one finds in the gnostic idea of the evil material world and the catholic idea of inherited sin at conception thus necessitating the immaculate conception of Mary…

Again, one does not find what where?? Don’t understand.

May God grant you a million miracles, Annem

 

[ALotLessThumb]

I only got to page three of this discussion, but I keep seeing the OP referring to “Sacred Tradition” holding some gnostic influence.

The OP brings up such matters as priestly celibacy and asceticism in general, and I cannot help but think that it doesn’t matter whether they were gnostic influenced or an outgrowth of syncretic thought. These issues are disciplines and not sacred traditions.

The rest of the OP’s points seem like strawmen too because even with the note of truth to them, none of them exactly damage any infallible position the Church takes.

 

[ALotLessThumb]

To the OP:

Having said that, I don’t think the idea of syncretism is so far fetched. Many points you make I agree with to certain extents, but that is why I am not Christian. I do feel you’re narrowing gnosticism too much, and ignoring that it wasn’t a unified movement, but a cultural event for the Greek West. The adoption of religion. I would also take issue with your categorization of Jewish practices in camps (though I agree the Alexandrian Jews were highly hellenized) when the reality of the time most likely produced a very messy and diversified field beyond the scope of categorization.

There is something large you are skipping over; which I think will prevent you from actually separating “gnostic” thought from Christian thought. The language problem between the Indo-European family and the Afro-Western Asian family (I cannot recall the name of the Semetic language family) which makes transliteration between the groups difficult and bizarre. Simply, there is a huge difference in thought between the “Greek” world and the “Jewish” world and Christianity (including those scriptures you are using as a control) is very much a “Greek” worldview. They are so different that I am inclined to believe that “Christianity” as the ECF fathers saw it; is the natural “image of Judaism” through a Greek mindset and what came out before that Western influence is anyone’s guess.

 

[annem]

ALotLessThumb

Simply, there is a huge difference in thought between the “Greek” world and the “Jewish” world and Christianity (including those scriptures you are using as a control) is very much a “Greek” worldview. They are so different that I am inclined to believe that “Christianity” as the ECF fathers saw it; is the natural “image of Judaism” through a Greek mindset and what came out before that Western influence is anyone’s guess.

Yes, I certainly agree, and so do the last fifty years of biblical scholarship. There was an entire school of biblical scholarship from about 1880-1930 called the ‘History of Religions’ which argued that many Christian dogmas came from Hellenistic or pagan myths. All of these theories crashed to the ground with further investigation of early Christianity. In fact, all the New Testament and early church documents are saturated, utterly, with the Old Testament and with Jewish background. The evidence for Hellenistic or pagan influence was pretty much zero.

May God grant you a million miracles, Annem

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

Surely on the contrary–Christ admonishes us to be perfect, as our heavenly father is perfect. Think of it. Perfection. Utterly without a single angry or lustful thought. Utterly loving. Utterly…perfect. And from day one in the church we see wonderful examples of people living up to this creed, don’t we? Ever read the letters of Ignatius, circa 110 AD?

May God grant you a million miracles, Annem

The verse referring to being perfect is about loving one’s enemies, not about the notion catholic of achieving perfection by purification through suffering.

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

I only got to page three of this discussion, but I keep seeing the OP referring to “Sacred Tradition” holding some gnostic influence.

The OP brings up such matters as priestly celibacy and asceticism in general, and I cannot help but think that it doesn’t matter whether they were gnostic influenced or an outgrowth of syncretic thought. These issues are disciplines and not sacred traditions.

The rest of the OP’s points seem like strawmen too because even with the note of truth to them, none of them exactly damage any infallible position the Church takes.

You defend “any infallible position the Church takes” yet claim you are not a Christian?

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

Again, one does not find what where?? Don’t understand.

May God grant you a million miracles, Annem

But **what is not found in the New Testament **is most interesting to me.

1. **One does not find **the idea of higher levels of holiness as in a special class of perfected ones, gnostic pneumatics, Greek philosophers, and catholic saints. One does not find ascetic contemplative practice as the way to achieve the perfected state, as in the way to achieve gnosis, contemplation in Pythagoras/Socrates/Plato, and monastic religious orders in catholicism.
2. **One does not find **the idea that deceased perfected ones ascend directly to heaven while deceased imperfect ones go through a period of purification in the gnostic rivers of fire, Plato’s lake of purification, or catholic purgatory as described by some ECF’s.
3. **One does not find **the idea that the celibate state is more holy than the married state, as one finds in gnosticism, Plato, and catholicism necessitating the perpetual virginity of Mary.
4. **One does not find **an elevated virgin female figure as Mother of the Angels as one finds in gnostic christianity and catholicism.
5. **One does not find **the notion that everyone is corrupted by the fact they are born into evil flesh, as one finds in the gnostic idea of the evil material world and the catholic idea of inherited sin at conception thus necessitating the immaculate conception of Mary…

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

1. Your degree of holiness depends upon your cooperation with God’s graces, not your station.
2. However, being celibate is a higher call. You are wrong to state that this idea is not in the bible. Because Christ himself was celibate. And don’t forget the “Blessed are those who become eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven”.

May God grant you a million miracles, Annem

But what is **not found in the New Testament **is most interesting to me.

1. One does not find the idea that the celibate state is more holy than the married state, as one finds in gnosticism, Plato, and catholicism necessitating the perpetual virginity of Mary.