Go to Hell - Stay there forever

[Gab123]

Fascinating that given all I said responding to your question that you’re curious about angelology

Satan is also a creature of God. Since God is all merciful and all love, why does God not forgive Satan and stop the eternal torment? If God doesn’t stop the eternal torment of Satan, why would God stop the eternal torment of damned souls who chose evil?

 

[JimG]

I think that probably the great mystery of hell is that if anyone in hell were offered the chance to repent and enter heaven, they would refuse.

 

[Magnanimity]

Satan is the Accuser. He hardly seems to be suffering in the garden of Eden or when he accuses Job to God in the Book of Job. St Paul says that we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against powers and principalities, against spiritual wickedness in high places. St Peter states that the Accuser prowls about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.

None of this is compatible with a view that Satan is suffering in a little corner of Hell like a human would facing neverending torment. What is Milton’s famous line of Satan’s “Better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven.” Idk why you would try to equate the “torment” of Satan (whatever that is) with the torment of human souls in a realm of unending suffering, weeping and gnashing of teeth…

I have not thought a lot about how the fallen angels would factor into a New Heavens and New Earth. He is said to be thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation, right? Along with death and Hades? :man_shrugging:t2:

 

[Gab123]

Satan is the Accuser. He hardly seems to be suffering in the garden of Eden

The Bible says Satan and his angels were thrown down to earth, that his time is running out, and that the torment of everlasting fire were created for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41)
Again, I ask you specifically, since God is all merciful and love, why doesn’t he forgive Satan and the fallen angels? Why an everlasting lake of fire?

 

[Magnanimity]

I don’t know what it would mean to “know exactly.” As in, to know fully and with perfect clarity. This isn’t how we, living in a fallen world, know things at all. The fallen-ness of the world has definitely affected our ability to see things as they are. I really don’t see how that’s controversial. My daughter, especially in a state of rebellion, a state of turning away from what she is teleologically directed toward—the good (or the Good) would be disordered. One does not see properly if one is living a disordered life.

“For this we toil and struggle, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the savior of all , especially of those who believe.” 1 Tim 4:10

It seems you’ve made a distinction that makes no difference. You’ve tried to claim that Christ’s blood being shed “for many” has some special meaning, even in the face of (how many quotes did I offer?) numerous plain scripture passages that over and again state that he died for ALL. 1 Tim above goes further and states that he is the “savior of all, but especially of those who believe.”

Logically, of course, rejecting God’s Love is possible. I have argued against whether it’s likely, or probable. Christ’s blood being shed “for many” doesn’t address the issues I’ve raised. And it’s probably a distinction without a difference.

 

[Magnanimity]

I’ve already given a little scholastic speculation that could assist you. If an angel is pure intellect and fully actualized with no potentiality, how would forgiveness factor in? Also, how could an angel change his mind? I understand that you’re trying to put the two creatures on a level playing field vis-a-vis God, but they are probably very different in their natures. How would a creature who can’t change his mind repent? How could he ask for forgiveness? I don’t know the answers, but I don’t see the logical possibility either.

 

[sudy]

Numbers 23:19

God is not man that he should speak falsely, nor human, that he should change his mind. Is he one to speak and not act, to decree and not fulfill?

Ezekiel 24:14

I, the LORD, have spoken; it is coming, for I will bring it about without fail. I will not have pity nor repent. By your conduct and your deeds you shall be judged, says the Lord GOD.

Matthew 13: 49-50

Thus it will be at the end of the age. The angels will go out and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.

Matthew 18:3

and said, "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Latin]

a) At least in the order of execution in time ( in ordine executionis ) the meritorious works of the predestined are the partial cause of their eternal happiness

Yes, I always believed heaven is God’s wholly gratuitous, entirely unmerited, gift of efficacious grace and our position, glory and happiness is determined by God according to the outcome of the judgment of our supernatural works. - 1 Cor.3:12-15.

b) hell cannot even in the order of intention ( in ordine intentionis ) have been positively decreed to the damned, even though it is inflicted on them in time as the just punishment of their misdeeds;

314 We firmly believe that God is master of the world and of its history.
Will we fully know the ways by which - even through the dramas of evil and sin - God has guided his creation to that definitive sabbath rest185 for which he created heaven and earth.
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The Divine will is cause of all things that happens, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.).

Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)
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324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;

His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.

God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.

Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10;

Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, Enchir.", xi in P.L. LX, 236; Serm.

Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in P.L.

c) there is absolutely no predestination to sin as a means to eternal damnation.

I agree, no predestination to sin for eternal damnation, so cannot be eternal damnation, I believe, at the end we all going home to heaven. - This is exactly the whole Catholic Church is praying for (1058), we should all believe what we are prying for, which is God to save everyone.

As the Divine will is cause of all things that happens, and every event predestined from all eternity, predestination to sin is for the reason, our sins are ministers to God’s design and the other reason is, God converts our sins into greater good, which is a process God makes all of us Glorified Saints.
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God bless

 

[Mintaka]

If there is no dsmnation and everyone is saved against their will, then humans are puppets without free will, and nothing we do in life matters.

If we are puppets living meaningless lives, there is no divine justice or love, and hence no divine mercy.

Oh, and all of salvation history did not matter. Jesus lived and died and rose again for no particular reason, just for show.

Either there are real choices and real stakes, or it is all make believe.

(And do not blame Origen. Origen had a lot of wacky ideas he floated - like God never granting any prayer made by a sinner and never inspiring a sinful person to pray – but he always said that he would change his ideas to go with what the Church taught. His direct students were mostly saints and martyrs. Origen’s bad reputation is almost all due to a few people.declaring themselves followers but teaching only wackiness.)

 

[Mintaka]

You might want to look at it like St. Macrina the Younger, in her deathbed talk with her little brother, St. Gregory of Nyssa. It is recorded in the dialogue, “On the Soul and the Resurrection.”

St. Macrina, like many in the early Church, was fond of quoting the bit about God being a “consuming fire.” Why? Because God is love, pure love.

So when our bodies die and our souls meet God, we are exposed to this burning love. Anything in us that is not love, anything that is sinful or the result of sin, is consumed by this spiritual love fire of His being.

The more we have works inspired by love, the more they survive. The more we have learned to love and cast out sin, the more we experience nothing but the joy of heaven.

But if our souls are imperfect, we have to have that purged by spiritual burning in God’s love. And if we are full of hate, there is nothing left of our souls but eternally burning it away.

And that is where St. Macrina was probably wrong – she saw Hell and Heaven and Purgatory as all being the same, with the experience only differing because of the individual person; and Hell as being the eternal, loving presence of God instead of His courteous absence. (And the Second Death was when sinful body was resurrected, sinful soul reunited with it, and they both get totally burned up in a final eternal annihilation. Yup, God as the ever-loving Lake of Fire too. Which is also probably dead wrong.)

But it is an interesting Grand Unified Theory of the existence of the soul until the Resurrection; and a nice antidote to both Universalism, and the people who hate images of eternal music or heavenly Mass.

Of course, if a sinner is repentant at all, even at the hour of death, God can blow on that tiny flame and fill that soul with love and life.

But it is true that if one is filled with bitter hatred and sin, love becomes repellent and hurtful. You have to want love to be able to accept love. And because we have the capacity to love, we have the capacity to hurt and hate. Because we have immortal souls, we are able to hate forever. We can make ourselves into dry chaff, and be unable to bear God’s loving presence.

God always chooses to love us, but we can choose to reject Him.

 

[Fauken]

Of course some will be quick to point out that it is private revelation and you don’t have to follow but then they will hang on every word of a liberal theologian.

And point to Von Balthazar being raised to be a Cardinal as proof of his ideas being accepted, but dismissed the modern Catechism as a being written by “Infernalists”, even though John Paul II approved and commissioned it, and Joseph Ratzinger (the future Benedict XVI) was its primary contributor. So… a Cardinal/future Pope and a current Pope. Oh, and the Roman Catechism I cited earlier was written by five bishops and two Cardinals, and was commissioned by the Church in the aftermath of Trent. But that doesn’t matter.

It seems you’ve made a distinction that makes no difference. You’ve tried to claim that Christ’s blood being shed “for many” has some special meaning, even in the face of (how many quotes did I offer?) numerous plain scripture passages that over and again state that he died for ALL. 1 Tim above goes further and states that he is the “savior of all, but especially of those who believe.”

I didn’t realize that twelve (thirteen?) quotes was the number where we can ignore what Jesus said in the Gospel. You claimed the New Testament had numerous times that affirmed Universalism, I provided you quotes from Jesus Himself to show Universalism is the incorrect interpretation, and your response is to basically ignore that? That’s all that can be done, I suppose, because your interpretation presents a glaring contradiction between what got cited and what I did. There is no other way to cram it in your argument, it stands in blatant opposition to it. Jesus died for all, but not all will be saved. That is the only way you can reconcile your quotes and mine.

Christ’s blood being shed “for many” doesn’t address the issues I’ve raised. And it’s probably a distinction without a difference.

Hardly. Either all sins are forgiven, or they’re not. You can’t say His blood was shed for many for the forgiveness of sins and then extend it to all. That is a logical contradiction.

 

[TrueRomanCatholic]

They go to hell because they don’t follow the rules of Mother Church and don’t worship the one and only Son of Man.

There are stipulations for Protestants or non Abrahamic religions, but it’s all within Mother Church’s rulebook.

If they break the rules, God punishes them, simple as pie

 

[Latin]

If there is no damnation and everyone is saved against their will, then humans are puppets without free will, and nothing we do in life matters.

GOD ALWAYS THE FIRST CAUSE OF OUR WILLING AND CHOOSING

We must make it very clear, our free wills are AIDED GIFT OF GOD, NOT an unaided gift of God and our free wills are NOT INDEPENDENT from God’s will.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence says;
Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).
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Our willing and choosing ALWAYS depends on God’s will, what God wills for us, that what we choose FREELY WITHOUT any force.

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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
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St. Thomas also teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES , and ELICITS the free response of man. …”

In other words, when God commands, He capacities the hearer to respond.
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Our cooperation with the grace of God is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation.
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Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.

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307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, to perfect its harmony for their own good and that of their neighbors.
Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions.
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Probably most of the time we do what we like to do without even we realize, we are freely and without any force, cooperating with God’s efficacious graces.

The Divine will is cause of all things that happens, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.).
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What do you think Mintaka, who would choose hell when God alone is the cause of our willing and choosing?
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God bless

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I know it’s surprising to a lot of Catholics that universalism (at least hoping for it a la Balthasar) is a love theological option for any believer. I know. But that surprise has nothing to do with the truth of the matter. I don’t know what the truth is on this matter. But I do know that the massa damnata doctrine of St Augustine is ridiculous. So is his belief that Hell is full, as in, more in Hell than in Heaven. These are repulsive beliefs, unworthy of the body of Christ.

You still seem to completely misunderstand me.

I hope that everyone will be saved. I fully believe that Jesus died for everyone, and that salvation is open to all souls. I do not enjoy the notion that people will be damned.

What I reject, as does the Church, is the notion that a soul, once damned, may later be redeemed. Once you are in Hell, there is no escaping it. That has been the consistent teaching of the Church throughout history, and is a theological principle clearly defined in Jesus’ warning about Hell.

(Matt. 25:41)

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

(Matt. 7:19)
Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

(Rev. 20: 11-15)

11 Next I saw a large white throne and the one who was sitting on it. The earth and the sky fled from his presence and there was no place for them.
12 I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls.
13 The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds.
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.)
15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.

(CCC 1035)

“The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs”.

This is not just colorful language. These are the words of Christ, the divinely inspired authors of scripture, and the teachings of Christ’s Church.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I also reject the notion that Hell is empty of all human souls. Once again, the words of Jesus solidly refute this notion.

(Matt. 7:14)

How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.

This could not be plainer. Very few people take the path that leads to salvation. You could argue from this passage that perhaps they don’t find the path themselves, but that God sets them on the path after death. By this verse alone, that is an option. However, we do not derive our dogmas from single passages in exclusion of all others.

(Matt. 7: 21-23)

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’

(Emphasis mine)

"Many will say…". Many. And what is the fate of this many? “Depart from me, you evildoers.”

It could not be clearer that not all will be saved, and that in fact many will be lost. This is not some new dogma made up by Augustine, these are the words of Jesus Christ himself. Deny this reality all you want, but in so doing you embrace error.

This is not a pleasant thought, it is not a happy thought. It is a frightening thought, especially for one such as me who goes to confession weekly due to habitual sin, and never feels like I’m going to be able to escape it. But if I were to accept that everyone is saved, then I would no longer be as driven to overcome my sinful habits, because there wouldn’t really be a need to. That is the danger of universalism, it leads souls away from God by removing any kind of need to better ones-self.

---

A little additional reading for you:

Are There Souls in Hell Right Now? (This article addresses Balthazar and Fr. Barron’s formulations of universalism, and the theological issues with them)

The Hell there is (This one includes quotations from Early Church Fathers supporting the historical belief that Hell is eternal, and people can’t get out of it.)

Hell? Yes! (Part 1)
Hell? Yes! (Part 2)
(These are just a general overview on the Church’s teachings about Hell, and where those teachings were derived from)

 

[laylow]

What I could never figure out is that if people really think that few people are saved, why they will be the ones among the saved. The modern, privileged person, who has had it better than 99.9999% of humanity is going to be saved…
…because they believed the right things? because they attended mass? because they confessed sins?

Full perspective must be considered, in order to come to a logical conclusion. Logically, it doesn’t follow.

And let’s say the bible is your sole source for direction, which I would caution is quite dangerous for numerous reasons that are too long to post here. Jesus preached more about the poor inheriting the kingdom and the rich being on the outside looking in, than any other concept that he discussed. Anyone reading this post is among the 99th percentile of richest humans in history. But these people will be in, because they mostly followed most of the rules? Frankly, I find this an insult to anyone who thinks critically.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

What I could never figure out is that if people really think that few people are saved, why they will be the ones among the saved. The modern, privileged person, who has had it better than 99.9999% of humanity is going to be saved…

As a habitual sinner, I have very little confidence in my own salvation.

I hope I will be saved, and I am actively trying to overcome my issues so that I might be saved. And yet I am still a terrible sinner. I see myself, and then I look at so many others who not only don’t strive for salvation, but who actively presume they will be saved regardless of their actions, or who believe that there is no salvation and that our actions don’t matter, and that is where my bleak view of the number of the saved comes from.

And let’s say the bible is your sole source for direction

Catholics don’t teach that. That’s a Protestant notion.

Anyone reading this post is among the 99th percentile of richest humans in history. But these people will be in, because they mostly followed most of the rules? Frankly, I find this an insult to anyone who thinks critically.

You seem to be falsely equating being blessed with material goods and access to the internet with somehow being less worthy than poorer people. What does us being a blessed group of people have to do with our salvation? It certainly can make our salvation more difficult if we don’t use these gifts well, but the gifts themselves are not some inherent indicator of our moral state.

As for being in “because we follow the rules,” you are once again ignorant of the faith you claimed to have held for nearly 40 years. Simply following the rules isn’t necessarily enough. That is a starting point. Sure, I think people who follow the rules strictly are more likely to be saved, but what saves us is our love of God and of neighbor. Love isn’t a rule to follow, it is a state to grow in. The Pharisees followed the rules, and yet were denounced by Jesus. Why would it be any different for us?

 

[sudy]

When we say that few are saved… it’s few by comparison, not just a couple of people… it’s ‘a great multitude impossible to count’.

We don’t say that we’ll be among those few who are saved… we say that we ‘hope’ that we are of that number, and trust that we are when we’re actually in a state of grace.

Also, if you read Matthew’s Gospel, it’s clarified as the poor is ‘poor in spirit’. It isn’t saying that the rich will be automatically rejected and the poor will be automatically accepted. If one is poor but desires wealth, that’s not what is asked of us, and being rich but generously giving… this is what we’re called to do.

 

[laylow]

As a habitual sinner, I have very little confidence in my own salvation.

I hope I will be saved, and I am actively trying to overcome my issues so that I might be saved. And yet I am still a terrible sinner. I see myself, and then I look at so many others who not only don’t strive for salvation, but who actively presume they will be saved regardless of their actions, or who believe that there is no salvation and that our actions don’t matter, and that is where my bleak view of the number of the saved comes from.

Well you would be different from any other Catholic I know. The way I see it is that if anyone actually believed they had even the slightest chance of “going to hell,” it would be virtually psychologically impossible to live life without being in perpetual fear of the future.

You seem to be falsely equating being blessed with material goods and access to the internet with somehow being less worthy than poorer people. What does us being a blessed group of people have to do with our salvation? It certainly can make our salvation more difficult if we don’t use these gifts well, but the gifts themselves are not some inherent indicator of our moral state.

Jesus’ words would disagree. If you truly believe that people who are wracked in pain every single moment from hunger and disease and poverty who die horrible, disgusting deaths are not more worthy of “salvation” than privileged, rich folks with good families, good health, wealth and enjoyment, who die a peaceful death in their sleep, than I feel sorry for your perception of morality.

As for being in “because we follow the rules,” you are once again ignorant of the faith you claimed to have held for nearly 40 years. Simply following the rules isn’t necessarily enough. That is a starting point. Sure, I think people who follow the rules strictly are more likely to be saved, but what saves us is our love of God and of neighbor. Love isn’t a rule to follow, it is a state to grow in. The Pharisees followed the rules, and yet were denounced by Jesus. Why would it be any different for us?

Then why are people not more fearful in their everyday lives? Why are people not running around nonstop trying to “save” people from hell? The concept is defined as torment that lasts FOR EV ER! When a billion years has past, you are just beginning the fun! This is so comprehensively bad, it’s basically indescribable. I have a health condition that caused me 2 years of pain and torment for 90% of that time. Towards the 2nd year, I basically hoped I wouldn’t wake up and every morning was totally disappointed when I did. The hell concept is INFINITELY worse than that, because there is no escape.

The reality is…either most people don’t believe the concept as defined…or they think there is no chance they will end up there.

 

[laylow]

Also, if you read Matthew’s Gospel, it’s clarified as the poor is ‘poor in spirit’. It isn’t saying that the rich will be automatically rejected and the poor will be automatically accepted. If one is poor but desires wealth, that’s not what is asked of us, and being rich but generously giving… this is what we’re called to do.

How about the whole camel passing through the eye of the needle thing…for starters.