Go to Hell - Stay there forever

[Magnanimity]

Do realize that in his book von Balthasar clearly insists that damnation is a real possibility for anyone, and nowhere does he state that he believes everyone is saved.

Yes, I re-read his book two weeks ago, cover to cover. I know precisely what he advocates. You have not quite got it right. The salvation of all is definitely his belief. But, he stops short of calling it “knowledge.” He claims that one cannot know, either way. No one can know that souls are in Hell, and no one can know that universalism is true. One can “hope.” More than that, the church is obliged to hope, pray and work for the salvation of all.

 

[RealisticCatholic]

Many of us struggle with sin.

But you have the answer to your own problem: Mortal Sin, by definition, does not occur through some weakness. We do not “fall” into Mortal Sin.

Too many people focus on Mortal Sin as “grave matter” that they forget the other two conditions for something to be mortal.

In the case of a priest – or anyone – we do not merely fall into sin. Especially if it is something we struggle with by habit or psychology or emotional or social pressure, then it just does not have the conditions of a Mortal Sin. a Mortal Sin turns us fundamentally away from God.

 

[oliver109]

We choose mortal sin but it is unfair I think that God gave St Paul the grace to avoid mortal sin but not this priest in the scenario above, imagine had St Paul died while he was persecuting the church he could have gone to Hell.

 

[RealisticCatholic]

Again, don’t confuse mortal sin with grave sin.

Mortal Sin can only be “Mortal” if the subjective criteria are met. Simply committing fornication is not “mortal.” It is a grave ACT, but only God knows where the person’s heart was. Only God knows if someone’s act is in fact “Mortal” for that individual.

 

[oliver109]

Lets just say it was mortal, it is clear that commiting sexual intercourse with a parishioner is a mortal sin. The priest knew it and went ahead with it, are we not to have mercy if he wants us to have mercy?

 

[RealisticCatholic]

God is all merciful. God knows whether or not the hypothetical priest was definitively rejecting God through his act of fornication.

As the Catechism says, someone only goes to hell through a definitive choice against God and willingly choosing to maintain that state until death.

God knows whether a choice is definitive. Remember the angelic fall? Their choice was definitive. So too does God providentially guide our lives to make our own definitive choice for or against Him.

The scenario that someone lives an entire life in a state of grace only to commit Mortal Sin 5 minutes before his death is a highly contrived scenario, but it DOES make sense IF that Mortal Sin is fully chosen as the definitive choice of the individual.

However, many of us do NOT end life definitively against God – hence purgatory. Could most people go to purgatory (and ultimately Heaven) and only a few go to hell? Maybe.

 

[oliver109]

How do we even know if we are definitively rejecting God or not, I don’t know that about myself for instance. If I was to die suddenly and found myself in Hell how would it be fair as I would not have known before I died if I was definitively rejecting God.

 

[RealisticCatholic]

Don’t get too hung up on “Mortal Sin.” It is a truth, but it points at something deeper. We can’t operate in a legalistic framework.

The truth of Mortal Sin is that humans are able to commit certain acts that are so fundamentally against God that they turn us away from him.

If you think that it doesn’t make sense for such and such a person to commit such and such an act and deserve hell, then you may in fact be right. But that suggests you may have an inaccurate understanding of mortal sin, in the first place.

Again, no one simply falls to mortal sin.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I would only say that a person cannot hope for what is not possible.

I believe that it is entirely possible for every last human on Earth to be saved. Salvation is open to all, the means of salvation are not withheld from any person who seeks them out.

While I believe the possibility has been open to all people, I do not believe that all people have taken advantage of it, and therefore reject the concept that all people have been saved.

My hope is born of the knowledge that all people have the means of grace open to them, but that hope must also be aligned with Christ’s warnings about the difficulty of salvation and the frequency with which he talked about a separation of the saved form the damned.

And so, as much as I may wish it were true, I cannot truly entertain it as a possibility, and must live my life accordingly. You are probably right that my hope is a weaker hope than the type of hope you are discussing, but that is the best I can muster given the evidence on hand.

To them, it was a refiner’s fire–to clear away all the “wood, hay and stubble” and leave the person left with nothing more than the goodness set to enter God’s kingdom.

See, this is what we call Purgatory. I fully believe in a cleansing fire, that all who enter into Heaven will be purified as through flames.

Hell isn’t that though. The fires of Hell are punishment, not purification. Jesus clearly distinguishes between the two.

I would only ask that you appreciate that everyone for the history of the church has been aware of these quotes, and yet church history finds no small representation of the hope that all will, in the end, be saved by the God who IS love.

I don’t mean to sound rude or crass, so please don’t be offended by this, but the consistent representation of false beliefs despite repeated correction is not evidence that there is merit to a belief.

There are theologians alive today who support gay marriage, or women priests, or communion for those in grave sin. These people are wrong, as are the people who reject the unending nature of the damned’s punishments.

But, I hope you can get away from the (fairly outrageous) idea that you’re the only one paying attention to scripture

I do not even remotely hold that idea. My scriptural knowledge is weak, weak, weak in comparison to many people on these forums, and even more so compared to actual theologians. That doesn’t mean that I am incapable of recognizing plain truth when it’s there.

Just wanted to make a quick reply, but now it’s back to work. How nice it would be if I could just engage in religious discussion all day >_>

God bless!

 

[oliver109]

Mortal sin is easy to commit and we are never told by God if we are in that state or not, why does God remain silent? why don’t he tell us what state our soul is in at that moment? I want to know myself if I am in a state of grace or a state of mortal sin, why does God leave it to us to work out?

 

[RealisticCatholic]

I disagree that Mortal Sin is easy to commit.

God has given us the means to not fret over salvation: (1) His Love: he desires all to be saved.

(2) He has given us the explicit means to “abide in him” — if we receive the Eucharist, we can be confident we do so. And of course Confession, which is deeply associated with the Eucharist.

 

[oliver109]

why, I find it very easy to have sex with someone I like, or to steal an expensive item, maybe you are more moral than me.

 

[RealisticCatholic]

But WHY is it easier to have sex with someone?

If your answer is sheer will, then of course I’d agree. If you’re going to disregard God and say “MY WILL BE DONE!” and not care about God, or Love, or other human beings, then sure, it’s easy. Do what you will.

But if your answer is because you have a strong sexual habit, or strong sexual urge, or passion, or immature development, or a psychological disorder, or social pressure, or are under emotional stress… Then these are all reasons to suspect that the act is NOT “Mortal” by very definition.

It is MY OPINION (though I think backed by what we know from psychology and moral theology) that much of sexual activity occurs through passion and mitigating factors like habit and immaturity. I think sexual sins can be mortal sins for many people, but I’m willing to bet — again, my opinion — that we overestimate sexual sins.

 

[Magnanimity]

Insofar as free will is real, we must admit of the possibility that humans can truly decide to definitively reject God.

We can all grant that free will is real. The second half of your statement though is controversial, and would not be granted by all. I do not grant it. There is something wrong with us. There is something wrong with the world. And we all know it. As Chesterton put it, “And my haunting instinct that somehow good was not merely a tool to be used, but a relic to be guarded, like the goods from Crusoe’s ship—even that had been the wild whisper of something originally wise, for, according to Christianity, we were indeed the survivors of a wreck, the crew of a golden ship that had gone down before the beginning of the world…” -Orthodoxy

I’m talking here about living in, and being an intrinsic part of, a fallen world. I’m not talking about original sin (inherited guilt). I’m talking about the frequency of mental mistakes, the pervasiveness of error, the continuity of doing what I don’t want to do and not doing what I know I should do (Romans 7), the inability to accurately judge things as they are, in-themselves. All of this is a part of our fundamental human experience, and it is universal–transcending times, places, cultures, religions, societies–it’s universally lived-out.

Yes, humans can will to reject all kinds of things, but whether each one of us can properly apprehend and understand significant truths about God and the depth of his love for all humanity, is questionable. As Fulton Sheen said, “There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church— which is, of course, quite a different thing.”

 

[RealisticCatholic]

I also highly doubt that anyone definitively rejects God, and I think Purgatory helps us see the logic to this.

We know (through Revelation) that the angels did. But can we do so — who are often ignorant and subject to other factors? I don’t know.

Nevertheless, as someone who feels compelled to respect Jesus’ own teachings, I have to admit that hell is at least a possibility.

 

[oliver109]

I think that the teachings of Hell are too similar to the American justice system, in the states you will go to jail for a lot longer than you would in Scandinavia for similar crimes, for instance a killer can be out in 15 years in Sweden while in America you are looking at sentences of 40 plus years. The public has an us and them attitude with regards to criminals, they think that they should suffer for their crimes because they chose them. In Scandinavia jail is more therapeutic and the way they treat criminals there is so nice that the public probably is deterred to commit crimes because they don’t want to offend such nice reasonable authorities.

 

[laylow]

Nope, they don’t. I am completely aware of that fact.

I am closing my browser window now, I’ve already spent more time on this debate today than I should. I enjoy this type of discussion, so it’s hard for me to pull away from it and focus on my work.

Have a good day!

Well I appreciate the discussion, but as I ended our last discussion with, I’m pretty sure we will disagree.

I do not see religion as morally sound. As a whole, I do not see it as a driver for people to live a good life. Religion claims to know the unknowable. With that knowledge then does it attempt to dictate the lives of others, usually negatively affecting disproportionately the disadvantaged. I see religion as humanity’s first attempt at philosophy. With it being the first, it is very dated. We have learned so much since that time, these advances cannot be left out of sound philosophy. Instead, countless lives are affected and ultimately ruined due to harmful constructs.

I believe one of the biggest misconceptions of the religious side is that all of those on the other side are bad people, who are selfish and have no respect for others. I know that’s sort of how I thought when I was religious. The reality is, those people exist, regardless of religious belief.

I’ve said enough. Good day.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I believe one of the biggest misconceptions of the religious side is that all of those on the other side are bad people, who are selfish and have no respect for others. I know that’s sort of how I thought when I was religious. The reality is, those people exist, regardless of religious belief.

That’s not what we believe, not even close, and if that’s what you believed when you were “religious” then you were gravely mistaken.

Seriously, you attribute all this nonsense to Catholics. Did you learn one actual thing about the faith before you just abandoned it wholesale?

Whatever, like you said, we’re not going to agree, so there’s little point in continuing this discussion.

 

[NoelFitz]

I’m with you @Rob2 and @NoelFitz! In fact, I just reread that Von Balthasar book. It is so very good.

Thanks for your posts.
I am impressed with your insights and grasp of Catholic teaching.
Von Balthasar, Rahner and de Lubac were the giants of 20th century theology and tend towards universalism.
Systematically I am trying to reply to the posts, but it may be some time until I reach yours.
I was encouraged very much by your contributuions.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I want to know myself if I am in a state of grace or a state of mortal sin, why does God leave it to us to work out?

He doesn’t. We have a fairly comprehensive list of gravely immoral acts / guiding principles.

If you have committed any of those acts, there is a chance you are in a state of mortal sin.

If there is a chance, you should treat it as a certitude and get to confession.