Go to Hell - Stay there forever

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I’m not talking about the divine and human wills. I am speaking of God’s Active will, and God’s Passive will. Are you unfamiliar with these concepts. (genuinely asking, as it’s an important bit of information in this debate).
Oh…sorry. I guess I was confused. I was trying to send a post to you really quickly earlier. I’m still unsure of whether you’re getting the point Balthasar is making, but it may not be that important. He is merely making the point that only a “hope” that all would be saved is allowed. Why? Because of two contrary strains in the scriptures. First, there is a real possibility of Hell presented in scripture. Second, there is also the opposite strain of scriptures which detail that Christ died for all and that all will be made alive. Said another way, some scriptures seem to suggest that folks are definitely bound for Hell (Matt 25, Rev). Other scriptures seem to suggest that Christ will draw all men to himself. Not that he died for all but that Christ will be all in all–all will finally be reconciled to God in him. Yes, all. Many of St Paul’s writings would give one a strong impression of universalism. The Gospels and Revelation would give one a strong impression of the real threat of unending banishment from the presence of God.

I understand your desire to resolve the conflict by pointing to human freedom. It doesn’t resolve the scriptural conflict though. And, although it’s a decent response to the argument from evil, it likely fails as a sufficient response to an objection against human souls in Hell. It only succeeds in the area of evil because there is always the caveat offered–God permits certain “evils” in order to bring about a greater good. Without that caveat, it’s actually a weak response to the argument from evil. But, it’s hard to see how that caveat could apply in the discussion of Hell. What greater good could be served by allowing unending torment/suffering of our and God’s loved ones?
 
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I generally agree with you, looking back to my scenario of the priest and the woman you will know that the priest was generally a good man, he went to Confession, he asked for forgiveness and did make an effort to stop sinning. Sadly he did have sex after confessing his sins and died immediately after. Many Catholics would say he would go straight to Hell as he deserved it after committing a mortal sin and dying soon after. Those of us who hope for forgiveness, mercyists I will term us will hope that God forgave the priest after he died as he knew that he was generally repentant but sinned badly like a lot of people.
 
I’ve already contested your belief that satan is now “tormented.” I don’t even know what that would mean.
I think it’s pretty clear:
“And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. -Rev. 20:10
You seem to miss the fact that to presume that humans will certainly be in Hell is itself a “sin of presumption.”
The sin of presumption is committed by someone who presumes God will save him in the end without actually repenting from sin. Anyone who wishes he’ll on anyone would be commuting a sin against charity; while those who claim that everyone is saved are simply spreading a false gospel.
In a twisted way, you could probably even hope that Hitler and Genghis Khan and Mao are all in Hell. But, you cannot have knowledge of this.
To hope that someone is in hell would simply reveals that one has uncharity —if not revenge and hatred in one’s heart.
I re-read his book two weeks ago, cover to cover. I know precisely what he advocates. You have not quite got it right. The salvation of all is definitely his belief.
I think you may be injecting your own conclusions; but the problem with his book is that he never addresses how God’s mercy, love, and plan could allow damnation for the angels that He created, but then save all men despite the fact that there are human beings that do incredibly inhuman evil.
I don’t grant that most humans know the Catholic concept of mortal sin. I don’t grant that when people do moral wrongs that they don’t feel remorse and are unrepentant for their actions (they do feel this). Rather, people have consciences, are born into various religious traditions (or none!) and generally live what seems to them to be a good, quality life. And as Lumen Gentium makes perfectly clear, these folks can be saved.
One doesn’t have to know the definition of hatred to have hatred in one’s heart. But Jesus is the savior of the world, not just Catholics; thus all will be judged by our deeds. To those to whom much was given much will be required, and Catholics were given the fullness of the faith and all the sacraments. Catholics are called to be Eucharistic vessels of reparation for the sins of the world; thus we have a special role to work in the salvation of others; thus the messages we. Catholics get from Marian apparitions is to pray and sacrifice for the conversion of sinners, not just Catholic sinners.

But the Sacred Scriptures are obvious, regardless of rather whimsical hopes that all will be saved. Eternal damnation of souls is as real as the eternal damnation of the fallen angels, and ti[o arufe otherwise is a foreign gospel
 
There is so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us, that it ill behooves any of us to find fault with the rest of us. James Truslow Adams (??)

We are all sinners, but also a little less than angels, so hell is a real probability for most (massa dasmnata), if God is just rather than merciful.

Pope Francis has said ‘Grace is stronger than sin: it overcomes every possible form of resistance, because love conquers all’. (Misericordia et misera, No8)

I have tried to reply to all posts, but with over 300 this is difficult, so I will ignore those claiming we choose, using our own free will, to go to hell, God has no responsibility, (name removed by moderator)ut, ability or care.
 
You have to believe in Gods mercy more, I am of the hope that God will only allow people to go to Hell if they refuse outright to repent of their sins. Take this example, there is a priest who has on several occasions had sex with a parishioner, he makes the effort in his life to avoid doing this but frequently ends up doing the wrong thing. He goes to confession one day and after leaving the church he happens to meet the same woman at the local café, they go to her house and have sex again, a plane then crashes on the house killing the priest, would God have mercy on an otherwise good priest?
Yours is an example of a situation that would make for a damned priest; if his soul is in the state of mortal sin when he dies, his soul has nowhere to go but away from God, being that a spirit in mortal sin is to be in the spiritual territory if the devil. This is the teaching of the Church. Obviously if the instant before he died he somehow sincerely repented, than he would have maybe made it to the lower sections of purgatory. However, not likely, considering the mountains of Scripture that would say otherwise.

Be careful; the devil lies about God in order to deceive souls. The common deceptions of the devil are the lies that, “there is no devil”, “there is no hell", and, “God’s mercy woul never condemn a soul to eternal punishment.”

Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. -Galatians 6: 7-8
 
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are far less likely to just all of a sudden go out and commit murder one day,
Thanks for your post.
I always find your posts excellent and uplifting, and soundly Catholic.
God bless,
Noel.

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So that we could have a share in His eternal life and happiness.
But if some end up being punished for eternity, God has failed in his plan to share happiness with his creatures.
God is perfectly happy, and nothing can add or take from his happiness and goodness, so why did he create?

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would God not ensure that he gives the sinner a chance to make a confession to him before he separates the soul from his body?
It is Catholic teaching that immediately ater death here is a judgement, and those sent to hell cannot escape.

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but that God, in his infinite mercy will always give a person the chance to repent.
But remember God sent his only Son, and he was rejected.
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God is responsible for man’s salvation.
God is almighty. He did things his way. The clay cannot tell the potter what do do. Things happen God’s way not ours.

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God possesses both perfect mercy and perfect justice. Will you worship an unjust God?
We worship God, even though he may seem unjust to us.
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God’s Justice ABSOLUTELY DEMANDS that He predestine the entire human race to heaven, without it God would be an UNJUST GOD.
We can only see things from our view, so God can appear unjust.
N.B. some replies may be a bit confused. I hope you can see what I am trying to express.
 
It warrants Hell I agree but there is the mercy of God. Look at St Augustine, he lived a life like the priest in my scenario, he could have gone to Hell but he did not, why? because of Gods mercy.
Had Augustine gone back to his old ways then he too would have been condemned. That was the whole point of his famous Confessions.
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2:Peter 2:20-22
 
Was the priest not a bit unlucky to die after committing a mortal sin? I mean St Augustine or St Paul could have been in the same position only God was able to prolong their lives to the point where they were in a state of grace. What is more is that the priest was not rejecting God with the intention of rejecting him for eternity. He probably thought “I will commit this sin and ask God for forgiveness afterwards as he will have mercy”
 
So you agree with a and c, especially a) “the meritorious works of the predestined are the partial cause of their eternal happiness”, but not with c) “sin as a means to eternal damnation”, which I say because to eliminated the word means. The Church teaches the hell is not empty, i.e., all are not actually saved. We pray with hope for those that are not already damned.

Read St. Pope John Paul II who wrote of the Catholic teaching that that there are human beings in hell, but that we just do not know “which human beings” they are:
Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of which human beings are effectively involved in it.
And of the Fourth Lateran Council, 1215 A.D., that souls are in hell now:
Indeed, having suffered and died on the wood of the cross for the salvation of the human race, he descended to the underworld, rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. He descended in the soul, rose in the flesh, and ascended in both. He will come at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, to render to every person according to his works, both to the reprobate and to the elect. All of them will rise with their own bodies, which they now wear, (quae nunc gestant) so as to receive according to their deserts, whether these be good or bad; for the latter perpetual punishment with the devil, for the former eternal glory with Christ.
The the particular judgment was defined at the Second General Council of Lyons in 1274:
However, the souls of those who after having received holy baptism have incurred no stain of sin whatever, also those souls who, after contracting the stain of sin, either while remaining in their bodies or being divested of them, have been cleansed, as we have said above, are received immediately into heaven. The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments. The same most holy Roman Church firmly believes and firmly declares that nevertheless on the day of judgment “all” men will be brought together with their bodies “before the tribunal of Christ” “to render an account” of their own deeds [Rom. 14:10 ].
Catechism
1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification, 592 or immediately, 593 or immediate and everlasting damnation. 594 …

592 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 857-858; Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304- 1306; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820.
593 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000-1001; John XXII, Ne super his (1334): DS 990.
594 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1002.
 
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But if some end up being punished for eternity, God has failed in his plan to share happiness with his creatures.
Lucifer was the most beautiful of all the angels, yet he demonized himself with all the other fallen angels; the same thing happens with men who choose evil and demonize themselves. Not repenting is the same choice that sealed the bad angels’ fate. God’s justice is glorified in His justice, being that they freely rejected a His mercy.

God succeeds in His Plan, because His plan separates light from darkness—that Is, good from evil.

You’re trying to argue that God should glorify Himself by forcing the wicked to become good.
 
We are not talking about God forcing anyone, we are talking about God ensuring someone dies in a state of grace, look at my example of the priest again, was he demonizing himself? was he eternally rejecting God? no he simply went to Hell because God would not let him Confess his sin before he died. The situation of the demons was so different as they lived in a completely different realm to us humans. Why does God not say to a soul that has just committed a mortal sin and is about to die “how about you confess to me son? you can always say no but it would mean you will never see me again” What we need is endless chances for repentance, I don’t understand this idea of being condemned for good because you were not good on the day you died.
 
the priest was not rejecting God with the intention of rejecting him for eternity. He probably thought “I will commit this sin and ask God for forgiveness afterwards as he will have mercy”
that simply shows that the man is wicked and does not love God; it shows that he only loves himself, thus he plans to “repent” in order to inherit the kingdom of God. That’s like a man who willfully plans to commit adultery and planning to ask his wife forgiveness, and that she will have mercy. The problem with this is that his repentance is not sincere but rather a wicked plan to try to save himself from the consequences of his sin.

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked . . .then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority . . . For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved. For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved. For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. . .2:Peter 2
 
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We are not talking about God forcing anyone, we are talking about God ensuring someone dies in a state of grace, look at my example of the priest again, was he demonizing himself?
The end of one’s life is the end of one’s life. We demonize ourselves when we consciously reject God through mortal sin in our thoughts and actions. Thus if you are in mortal sin, repent now, for you know not when your end is. Here is a good talk by Fulton Sheen on HELL
 
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So you agree with a and c, especially a) “the meritorious works of the predestined are the partial cause of their eternal happiness”, but not with c) “sin as a means to eternal damnation”, which I say because to eliminated the word means. The Church teaches the hell is not empty, i.e., all are not actually saved. We pray with hope for those that are not already damned.

Read St. Pope John Paul II who wrote of the Catholic teaching that that there are human beings in hell, but that we just do not know “which human beings” they are:
Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of which human beings are effectively involved in it.
And of the Fourth Lateran Council, 1215 A.D., that souls are in hell now:
Indeed, having suffered and died on the wood of the cross for the salvation of the human race, he descended to the underworld, rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. He descended in the soul, rose in the flesh, and ascended in both. He will come at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, to render to every person according to his works, both to the reprobate and to the elect. All of them will rise with their own bodies, which they now wear, (quae nunc gestant) so as to receive according to their deserts, whether these be good or bad; for the latter perpetual punishment with the devil, for the former eternal glory with Christ.
The the particular judgment was defined at the Second General Council of Lyons in 1274:
However, the souls of those who after having received holy baptism have incurred no stain of sin whatever, also those souls who, after contracting the stain of sin, either while remaining in their bodies or being divested of them, have been cleansed, as we have said above, are received immediately into heaven. The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments. The same most holy Roman Church firmly believes and firmly declares that nevertheless on the day of judgment “all” men will be brought together with their bodies “before the tribunal of Christ” “to render an account” of their own deeds [Rom. 14:10 ].
592 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 857-858; Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304- 1306; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820.
593 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000-1001; John XXII, Ne super his (1334): DS 990.
594 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1002.
Matt.19:25-26; … Who then can be saved?
With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

Mark 26:27; … Who then can be saved?
Jesus looked at them and said, With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.

Jer.32:17; … Nothing is too hard for you.
.
Do you believe Vico, With God all things are possible and Nothing is too hard for God?

Thank you
for your answer in advance.

God bless
 
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I think it’s pretty clear:
“And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. -Rev. 20:10

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Magnanimity:
Ah, the quoting of scripture as if it can do our arguing for us…it is tempting, isn’t it?

Right back atcha: ““For this we toil and struggle, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the savior of all , especially of those who believe.” 1 Tim 4:10.”

Seems pretty clear to me that St Paul asserts that Christ is the savior of all, but especially of folks like you and me (those who believe). So then, He is everyone’s savior-all-no exceptions–even the savior of those folks you think are headed for Hell (the others)… Case closed, right? Or maybe we can’t simply quote scriptures and pretend that those scriptures do our arguing for us. Maybe…? 🤷‍♂️

So, feel free to let us know just what is “clear” about Rev 20:10. Is it the chemical composition of the lake? The sulfur? Is it the location of the lake? Out in space? Center of the Earth? If it’s a lake comprised of sulfur, then it’s physical in nature, which means it takes up space and has mass, I guess? They’ll be tormented “day and night,” so the lake revolves around a star? And how does a pure spirit (like Satan) get “thrown?”

Of course, I’m not really looking for your explanations of any of this. I only probe to illustrate the “clear as mud” nature of taking this verse is some literalistic way…

I reiterate, "to presume that humans will certainly be in Hell is itself a “sin of presumption.” It is a particularly nasty presumption too, borne, not out of Catholicism or even of Christianity but of Augustinianism. You are likely not aware of this, but your level of awareness makes no difference to the historical record.

Original sin/massa damnata/we know with certainty that souls are in Hell - all of this nastiness comes straight from the theology of St Augustine, and up through the scholastics and even lingers around the church today, as is evidenced by CCC 1033… It’s sad, but that’s the historical reality. Thanks be to God, however, that the East is much less excited about the bleak vision of St Augustine, as are the patristics, as are the greatest Catholic and Orthodox minds of the last 100 years.
But the Sacred Scriptures are obvious, regardless of rather whimsical hopes that all will be saved. Eternal damnation of souls is as real as the eternal damnation of the fallen angels,
You, sir or madam, are a true Augustinian. I can’t quite congratulate you for this, but I don’t blame you either. His shadow has loomed large on the western church…🤦‍♂️ St Augustine had many fine things to contribute. (I’ve read his Confessions.) But, massa damnata is much more bizarre and ugly than it is “fine.”
 
to presume that humans will certainly be in Hell is itself a “sin of presumption.” It is a particularly nasty presumption
Stating that everyone that dies in mortal sin is simply stating Church teaching. The Bible is very clear: Everyone who repents and turns to God will be saved, while those who do not repent of their wicked ways will be lost. Anyone who does not understand this is either not very bright, or is not well educated in the Scriptures.

But your position is in a conundrum. First of all Von Balthasar does not claim that everyone goes to heaven. Second of all, you seem to assume that everyone will eventually repent; how could you possibly know this? The Bible certainly does not teach this.

But the death blow to your conclusion that that an all-merciful God would never let one any his creatures suffer eternal torment, when in fact God allows the fallen angels to experience eternal torment of separation from God in hell. If you argue that all men will eventually find salvation because of God’s mercy, then you are going to have to claim that the devils will also find forgiveness. If an angel was able to make an unchangeable choice, then so too with man; man’s fate is seaed the moment his soul left them body in time, and enters eternity where there is no time or possibility to change one’s state; one needs time to change.
feel free to let us know just what is “clear” about Rev 20:10. Is it the chemical composition of the lake? The sulfur? Is it the location of the lake? Out in space? Center of the Earth? If it’s a lake comprised of sulfur, then it’s physical in nature, which means it takes up space and has mass, I guess? They’ll be tormented “day and night,” so the lake revolves around a star? And how does a pure spirit (like Satan) get “thrown?”
Hell is probably at the center of the earth, which would seem quite fitting; Scripture states that the fallen angels were thrown to earth, —not to Mars, not to Venus, but earth. But the notion that hell is at the center of the earth is the testimony of Fatima and the mystics. We do know that sulfur is at the center of the earth. A spirit gets “thrown” the same way that a spirit “rises” to heaven. it’s a question about union or separation from God.
 
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