Go to Hell - Stay there forever

[oliver109]

I agree with you that after the soul has left the body there is no more hope for change, what I am talking about is the moment before the soul has left the body or simply the particles that remain of the body after a major explosion for example. God I believe wishes to do everything he can in those moments to call a soul to repentance, Padre Pio is alleged to have said this: “I believe that not a great number of souls go to hell. God loves us so much. He formed us at his image. God loves us beyond understanding. And it is my belief that when we have passed from the consciousness of the world, when we appear to be dead, God, before He judges us, will give us a chance to see and understand what sin really is. And if we understand it properly, how could we fail to repent?”

 

[Magnanimity]

tion is in a conundrum. First of all Von Balthasar does not claim that everyone goes to heaven.

We have already been over this. Balthasar asserts that it’s impossible that you could know with certainty that anyone is bound for Hell. I repeat, such knowledge is impossible for you to possess. But, the flip side of the coin is that he equally believes it’s impossible for him to know with certainty that all will be saved. In this debate, no one has knowledge, he argues. Throughout the book, he repeatedly chides the overconfident folks who “know” that Hell is occupied by human souls… He hopes and prays that all will be saved–all, not some or most. All. He further argues that all Christians have an obligation to hope and pray for the salvation of all. This is not a special vocation set aside for theologians. It is my and your duty.

Second of all, you seem to assume that everyone will eventually repent; how could you possibly know this?

No, my assumption is that as long as a person’s intellectual faculties are properly functioning, such that they empathize, have a conscience and are rational, then they do repent and feel sorrow when they commit wrongs. Regular folks plainly do repent and do so on a regular basis. They may not know who to direct that repentance toward, but feeling sorrow for one’s “missing the mark” is commonplace. It’s human. It’s not specially limited to Christians, nor even to religious people.

“Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel. She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life.” Lumen Gentium (16)

Who does God enlighten? A-L-L. Just the Catholics? A-L-L. Only the Christians? A-L-L. Merely the religious folks? A-L-L. Why? “That they may finally have life.” There is little that could be a clearer teaching of the Church than that the death of Christ reconciled the world to himself. That is a, if not the, central teaching of the New Testament. (See my several NT quotes above to Fauken for many references.)

 

[Magnanimity]

If you argue that all men will eventually find salvation because of God’s mercy, then you are going to have to claim that the devils will also find forgiveness. If an angel was able to make an unchangeable choice,

Death blow, huh? I’m afraid you’re going to have to address my several responses regarding the angels that I articulated above before we put to death this hopeful belief and are forced to live in the bleak, Augustinian universe.

Here are a few that you never addressed:

"In truth, we know very little about them [angels]. I know that St Thomas Aquinas favored a view that angels are “fully actualized” at the moment of their creation, with no potentiality at all. From that opinion, it would follow that once an angel has set its will, it cannot alter that will (cannot change its mind, say).

If an angel is pure intellect and fully actualized with no potentiality, how would forgiveness factor in?

Also, how could an angel change his mind?

How would a creature who can’t change his mind repent?"

And as I said above, “whatever might be said of the angels, humans can and do change their minds (and often). They do so sometimes in response to great love. They do so sometimes when the “blinders” have been removed from their eyes and they see reality as it really is.”

 

[sudy]

The examples you keep using are those of preplanned sin with a view of repenting afterwards. It’s chosen sin, not a sin that the person is even trying to fight against.

If one were to fall due to habit of sin but was really wanting to avoid the sin, that is totally different, but to purposely choose to sin while thinking ‘it’s fine because I can just confess it later’ is not even striving to grow closer to God… it’s simply enjoying the sins and believing he’ll be in the clear later on.

 

[oliver109]

The priest did want to overcome his sin, that is why he went to Confession in the first place. How is God going to judge a person who strives to fight a sin but stumbles and dies at the last minute?

 

[Magnanimity]

I haven’t read much Padre Pio, but I like this alleged quote. It sounds very much like the patristics, as De Lubac and Von Balthasar present them.

And if, according to 1 Corinthinas 3:12-15, all have to pass through fire in order to reach God, if all that is “wood, hay, straw” in them has to be burned so that they themselves may be “saved…through fire”, then who can ever fully grasp the horror of this ordeal? … Origen, following Clement, calls the fire waiting for us “sapiential”, “spiritual”; it is the baptism in Spirit and fire mentioned by the Baptist, who had baptized with water. The Spirit came to us on Pentecost, the fire is waiting for us after our death: the Lord will “stand in the river of fire near the ‘flaming sword’”, which everybody must pass in order to return to paradise… Remember, “our God is a consuming fire…He does not consume what is according to the image and likeness, he does not consume his own creation but accumulated hay, the accumulated wood, the accumulated stubble.” - Von Balthasar, Dare We Hope That All Men Be Saved? pp194-96.

 

[sudy]

We don’t know how God will judge a soul at the last minute… that’s not what I’m talking about.

You’ve used a couple of examples… I can’t really look back as I’m on my phone, but a priest looks at this woman and instantly decides, right after walking out of confession, that he’s going to have sex and will just go back to confession afterwards is 1) looking at this woman purely as a sex object 2) presuming on God’s mercy 3) making absolutely no effort to even try to avoid sinning.

If this is some kind of ‘habitual’ sin, what kind of priest are we dealing with here? He’s been committing this long enough to form a habit and without trying any form of self mastery.

I don’t presume to know how God will judge him. I can’t see what this guy’s heart is like, nor identify his ‘struggles’. I know that God is more merciful than we are, so who knows? Yet we’re talking about a priest who is fully aware that we’re called to have self restraint, and to pray and struggle against sin, as well as to trust in God to help is. Read 1 Corinthians 10:13

 

[Kyparissiotes]

When the scriptures speak of Recapitulation, where God will be all in all, let’s parse that out-

1. God is the Supreme Good.
2. All of God’s acts are therefore good.
3. One of the acts of God is to punish the wicked in fulfillment of justice.
4. To fulfill Justice is good.
5. Therefore, the recapitulation of all things in Christ is nothing less than the triumph of the Good over every circumstance of creaturely existence- whether it be showing mercy to some, or punishing for eternity those who truly deserve it.

To say God will be all in all is to say the Good will be all in all and that every wrong is righted and every “I” dotted and “T” crossed.

 

[Kyparissiotes]

Read Saint Augustine “On Rebuke and Grace” Chapter 18-

Chapter 18.–Some Instances of God’s Amazing Judgments.​

It is, indeed, to be wondered at, and greatly to be wondered at, that to some of His own children–whom He has regenerated in Christ–to whom He has given faith, hope, and love, God does not give perseverance also, when to children of another He forgives such wickedness, and, by the bestowal of His grace, makes them His own children. Who would not wonder at this? Who would not be exceedingly astonished at this? But, moreover, it is not less marvellous, and still true, and so manifest that not even the enemies of God’s grace can find any means of denying it, that some children of His friends, that is, of regenerated and good believers, departing this life as infants without baptism,–although He certainly might provide the grace of this laver if He willed, since in His power are all things,–He alienates from His kingdom into which He introduces their parents; and some children of His enemies He causes to come into the hands of Christians, and by means of this laver introduces into the kingdom, from which their parents are aliens; although, as well to the former infants there is no evil deserving, as to the latter there is no good, of their own proper will. Certainly, in this case the judgments of God, because they are righteous and deep, may neither be blamed nor penetrated. Among these also is that concerning perseverance, of which we are now discoursing. Of both, therefore, we may exclaim, “O the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments!”

 

[Magnanimity]

Welcome! One of my favorite NT passages referring to God being “all in all” is from 1 Corinthians 15:

“20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being. 22 For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life, 23 but each one in proper order: Christ the firstfruits; then, at his coming, those who belong to Christ; 24 then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death, 27 for “he subjected everything under his feet.” But when it says that everything has been subjected, it is clear that it excludes the one who subjected everything to him. 28 When everything is subjected to him, then the Son himself will [also] be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.” NABRE

In Adam, all die. In Christ, all shall be brought to life.

 

[NoelFitz]

Of course we have to do our best and 100 % depend on God’s graces.

well said.

Yes I dare hope for it is the Father’s will .

von Balthasar goes as far as a Catholic can. One can hope all will be saved or one simply one can hold that all may be saved.

No Pope has ever minimised the reality of Hell.

Our Lady of Fatima showed the children a vision of Hell because she knew that foolish men would teach that all people are saved.

Recent popes have minimized the pains of hell. Francis said that the good sinners have done will be acknowledged.
Fatima is only a private revelation, not dogma.

 

[NoelFitz]

I am sure God takes their personal situations of ignorance into account

When ignorance is bliss tis folly to be wise.

Anyway we see this kinda play out in the Church with liberals who teach primacy of conscience.

Did Pope Francis say ‘who am I to judge’. Judge not and you shall not be judged.

Nobody wants to consider the possibility that they might go to Hell.

Augustine and Thomas Aquinas believed most people go to hell.

The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a DE FIDE Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

Iwould quibble.
I see in Ott:

'God, by his Eternal Resolve of Will, has predetermined certain men to eternal blessedness. (De Fide).

I dare hope and do hope that all be saved .

So do I.

The different end (heaven or hell) is dependent on us.

We can choose to go to hell, but not to heaven. Nothing meritoious can be done without God’s grace.

The sad probability is, that the vast majority of people who die go to hell.

So saints have said. This does no say much for God’s mercy.
Pope Francis has said ‘the Lord’s goodness and mercy have been poured out upon the entire world’ (Misericordia et Misera, Number 4).

It’s high time that the Catholic Church in the west seriously reexamines its unquestioned allegiance to the Augustinian massa-damnata /Hell-is-full teaching. As I said, it borderlines on being a morbid pathology to claim that you’re OK with humans enduring forever in a state of ongoing torment/suffering as a result of the ‘justice’ of God.

I appreciate your views.
Thanks for your clear and brave posts.

It is a very fancy way of saying that hell doesn’t exist.

Von Balthasar did not say hell does not exist. We are all under judgement.

I would argue that we do not demonize ourselves completely in the vast majority of cases

The Church teaches that inercourse outside marriage is grave matter. So if before marriage you had sex,you are probably in mortal sin, if you divorce you are in sin (annulment means no marriage existed). If you believe in contraception or missing Mass you may be heading for hell.
All we can do is hopt in God’s mercy and do our best. Grace is a gift, we cannot merit it.
Most Catholics do not go to confession, so the outlook looks bleak.
Now I have considered the first 100 posts.

 

[Gab123]

Padre Pio is alleged to have said this:

Guys, let’s not start making up quotes.

 

[oliver109]

Padre Pio is alleged to have said that, there is no certainty to it but even if Bob from Chicago said that it still makes a lot of sense and should be part of what the church teaches.

 

[Gab123]

Padre Pio is alleged to have said that, there is no certainty to it but even if Bob from Chicago said that it still makes a lot of sense and should be part of what the church teaches.

If Bob in Chicago said it then verify it, don’t start making up quotes and alleging some saint said it., I can quote you exactly what JESUS SAID:

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. . . Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing . . “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matt. 7:13-23

 

[oliver109]

Those people in the parable never actually did good though, they did not carry out his will. I am talking about someone like myself who does try and avoid mortal sin possibly falling into Hell because I did something bad on the day my soul was required of me. Christianity is supposed to be a religion of mercy and forgiveness, you keep mentioning the Devils and how they chose against God but you cannot really compare us to Devils as the majority of sinners do actually ask for forgiveness after they have sinned.

 

[Vico]

…

Do you believe Vico, With God all things are possible and Nothing is too hard for God?

Thank you for your answer in advance.

God bless

God can do anything that is logically possible but not all things imaginable. St. Thomas Aquinas commented on this topic:
St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae I:25:3-4.

 

[Kyparissiotes]

Council of Valence, dogmatically binding- from Sources of Catholic Dogma- hhttp://patristica.net/denzinger/

#322
“…
faithfully we confess the predestination of the elect to life, and the predestination of the impious to death; in the election, moreover, of those who are to be saved, the mercy of God precedes the merited good. In the condemnation, however, of those who are to be lost, the evil which they have deserved precedes the just judgment of God. In predestination, however, (we believe) that God has determined only those things which He Himself either in His gratuitous mercy or in His just judgment would do * according to Scripture which says: “Who has done the things which are to be done” [ Is. 4 5:11, LXX];

 

[Gab123]

I know that St Thomas Aquinas favored a view that angels are “fully actualized” at the moment of their creation, with no potentiality at all. From that opinion, it would follow that once an angel has set its will, it cannot alter that will (cannot change its mind, say). If an angel is pure intellect and fully actualized with no potentiality, how would forgiveness factor in?

Your statements above proves that you don’t know what you’re talking about. Aquinas states the exact opposite of what you just said. Aquinas’ explains that angels, though conceived as pure forms without any matter, still possessed potentiality. A rational creature (possessing intellect and will) has by nature the potential to sin. While all the angels were yet unbeatified they could sin, and according to Scripture a third of them did sin. Furthermore, the sinning angels (or fallen angels) are guilty of all sins in so far as they lead man to commit every kind of sin. But the sins the bad angels themselves committed than resulted in their consequential fall were sins of pride and envy. (Lucifer who became Satan, leader of the fallen angels, wished to be as God.)

whatever might be said of the angels, humans can and do change their minds (and often). They do so sometimes in response to great love. They do so sometimes when the “blinders” have been removed from their eyes and they see reality as it really is.”

Men like angels have the capacity to be sanctified or to be demonized; if you choose to indulge in sin fully knowing that it is evil and you die in that state of rebellion unrepented, despite all the inspirations to repent, then surely you will be damned. It’snot me saying it, or a book I found on Amazon, but the teachings of Jesus, the apostles, saints, mystics, doctors of the Church—- the constant teaching of the magisterium.

I think your issue may be one of loss of faith in the teachings of the Church. Remember, the devil’s specialty is to deceive; the devil is like a snake that slithers his tongue into the minds of people introducing phony ideas and teachings about God and salvation. Sure! Everyone is saved! God is all-loving and merciful, he would never condemn anyone to eternal separation from him! that would make God a monster! …And so on…The idea that there is no hell, or that nobody actually goes there is a lie: Who goes thee we do not know, but we do know that unrepented mortal sin seals our fate if we die in that state. But the fact that you blatantly misrepresented Aquinas and twist the teachings of the Church is simply evidence of poor education on the matter, or worse, are part of those groups who try to subvert church teaching from within by confusing Catholics.

 

[Kyparissiotes]

I believe everything taught by the Church and accept it by faith.

But there is a question I cannot clearly answer-

How can men, so darkened by ignorance,
Circumstance and lack of clarity in general, slaves to involuntary passions ever make a choice that is of eternal value? Who in this life can really choose evil in a fully enlightened view of its severity? And given our shattered intellect and will, who can be asked to pay for eternity for a choice made in partial knowledge? Who would NOT choose God knowing him clearly? I cannot fathom this.

But I believe and confess the damnation and punishment of sinners who have defiled themselves by sin. But I don’t see how any choice made now is of eternal weight given our dis-integrated state.

Has anyone specifically resolved this question?