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twf
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You are misrepresenting Von Balthasar’s teaching. He was in good standing with the Church.
Go to Hell - Stay there forever
- Thread starter NoelFitz
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To me the judgement seems very harsh.
No, one mortal sin is sufficient for eternal damnation.
Again, well said.
But I agree with you.
He said to them in reply, “Do you think that because these Galileans suffered in this way they were greater sinners than all other Galileans. By no means! (NABRE, Lk 13:2,3)
True!
We must be merciful not God!! Seems odd.
Well said!
I do not like to see personal attacks.
We can never understand why God does what he does.
Who has known the mind of the Lord?
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Latin
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That kind of story given for encouragement, motivation, inspiration.
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Please read the Book of Jonah, for the attention of the Ninevites, Jonah forty days promised distraction and hell for the Ninevites and after forty days God provided Universal Salvation and saved all Ninevites.
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When we reading the Scripture, we see in parallel there are two lines of teachings. – Would be a logical fallacy to believe both line.
One line is only a few people saved, the other line is God’s Universal Salvific Will and God saves everyone. – Rom.5:18; Eph.1:10-11; Col.1:20; etc.
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Before Vatican II our theologians mostly focused on the line teaches only a few people saved.
At Vatican II and after our theologians started to focus on the line which teaches God saves everyone. – This is exactly the whole Catholic Church is praying for (1058), we all should believe what we are praying for.
It makes no difference how we cut it: For our salvation, the buck stops with God.
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Someone may say; only people goes to hell who are choose to go to hell by their free wills, but this doesn’t make any sense because when God has given us free wills, His duty of care is to provide us the knowledge and the aide of efficacious graces to use our free wills correctly. – Only an intellectually disabled person would choose hell.
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God bless
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I will try now to reply to posts from 151 to 200.
This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
(NABRE 1 Ti, 2:3-4)
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Brilliant. I think we could ignore most posts and focus on yours only. With scholarship, clarity and charity you get to the point. Thanks.
Grace is a gratuitous gift. We cannot say God gives it to us every moment
I try to believe in a merciful God and hope he will save all.
I asked an Augustinian was Augustine as dreary and negative as he seems and I was told he was gregarious, liked people and was good company. People did choose him.
How do you make ths out?strong text
Agreed, but the Church has never said that there is anyone in hell. It could be empty.
We also see in Scripture:
This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
(NABRE 1 Ti, 2:3-4)
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Fauken
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VanitasVanitatum
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It almost looks like you are applauding what you want to believe.
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oliver109
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Why should the relationship be ruined? it can always be fixed by getting back to Confession. My friend beat me up and took money from me, I forgave him and told him not to do that again, he listened and now things are better.
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Fauken
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Because that is the nature of mortal sin.
That is true. I said it was broken, not that it was irreparable.
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Vico
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Clearly God is not responsible for anyone ending in hell, rather that is a personal choice. That would be contrary to the dogmatic teaching of universal salvific will, and to justice. (Notice that Jn 3:18 shows us that not all are actually saved.) You saw the Catholic teaching posted before that God has revealed to us that hell exists and that it will be eternally inhabited by demons and by men damned through their own fault:
Catechism
Catechism
That is why the Catholic Encyclopedia (Predestination) summed up as shown below:
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L
Latin
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In MOLINISM; Clearly God is not responsible for anyone ending in hell, rather that is a personal choice. Men damned through their own fault.
In Molinism for man’s Salvation/ his Predestination to heaven the Glory belongs to man because man decides his Salvation/ his Predestination to heaven.
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In THOMISM; Clearly God is responsible for anyone ending up in hell, it is God’s personal choice by the Decree The Divine Reprobation.
Men damned because God failed to predestine the person to heaven.
The blood of the damned is in God’s hands.
In THOMISM for man’s Salvation/ his Predestination to heaven the Glory belongs to God because God decides his Salvation/ his Predestination to heaven.
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THE MYSTERY OF PREDESTINATION John Salza
Hence, a sufficient grace has an operating effect only ( empowering the will to act),
whereas an efficacious grace has both an operating and cooperating effect ( applying the will to act).
Sufficient grace remains an interior impulse, whereas an efficacious grace produces an exterior act.
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Sufficient grace gives man the potency to do good, but efficacious grace is required to move him from potency to act.
Therefore, sufficient grace is insufficient to move him to act, the power remains in potency and is never actualized.
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When God wills a person to perform a salutary act (e.g., prayer, good works), He grants him the means (an efficacious grace ) that infallibly produces the end ( the act willed by God ).
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If God wills to permit a person to resist His grace, He grants him a sufficient, and not an efficacious, grace.
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The distinctions between these graces reveal that God is responsible for man’s salvation. End quote.
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THE MYSTERY OF PREDESTINATION by John Salza
Page 121; Fr. Most identifies the metaphysical issue as follows:
Sufficient grace gives man the potency to do good, but do not give the application.
For the application efficacious grace is required to move him from potency to act.
Therefore, sufficient grace is insufficient to move him to act. End quote.
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As we see above Fr. Most is agree with John Salza that God is responsible for man’s salvation.
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In my opinion, every Catholic Thomist agree, God is responsible for man’s salvation.
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Please Vico don’t answer this post because I like to comment on your post of the Catechism section as well but at this stage I have no time.
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God bless
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I will now try to reply to more posts.
Initially I seemed to disagree with many posts.but now I seem to agree with several, in which God is considered loving, merciful, compassipate and kind. There seems less emphasis on a God who is either unwilling or unable to help people avoid hell, The idea of an uncaring God who accepts no responsibility for souls in hell, claiming the responsibility is our free will, seems les prevalent.
Lets get simple.
God is a God of love, and is almghty and wishes all to be saved.
Initially I seemed to disagree with many posts.but now I seem to agree with several, in which God is considered loving, merciful, compassipate and kind. There seems less emphasis on a God who is either unwilling or unable to help people avoid hell, The idea of an uncaring God who accepts no responsibility for souls in hell, claiming the responsibility is our free will, seems les prevalent.
St Faustina was condemned by the Church. Private revelations are not dogmatic.
This is a good team.
Can a mother forget her infant, be without tenderness for the child of her womb? Even should she forget, I will never forget you. (NABRE, Is 49:15)
Even the least sin is a rejection of God, and then, following you, deserving of everlasting pain.
We are getting very technical.
Lets get simple.
God is a God of love, and is almghty and wishes all to be saved.
Everything made by God is good, and hence does not deserve eternal suffering.
There should be no insults here.
With all the discussion about accepting or rejecting God, I wonder about those who have never heard of God.
I agree with the above about von Balthasar. His final onclusion is that we can hope that all may be saved (not will be saved).
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Gab123
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this is a stupid statement.
Fatima and the Message of Divine Mercy has been declared worthy of belief by the Church.
Yes, God is merciful. And we should hope that everyone is saved; but that everyone will be saved is not the dogmatic teaching of the Church. You and I can’t even presume of our own salvation. What makes you think that cruel evil people who commit grizzly crimes, rape children, organize sex trafficking, worship at Satanic rituals and hate their fellow man, have their name written in the book of life? After all, Revelation 20:15 dogmatically states that anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life is thrown into the lake of fire.
Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. Gal. 6:7
Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—none of these will inherit the kingdom of God.-1 Cor. 6:9-10.
So I guess it is a question of people being deceived that nobody goes to hell.
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oliver109
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Cruel, evil people are not the sort of people that are going to be on this forum trying to find answers as to how one can please God and get to Heaven. We are talking about people like the priest in my scenario, sinners who do go to Confession and try to make good righteous lives but stumble occasionally and God forbit end up dying after committing a mortal sin, why would God not have mercy on those kinds of people?
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lilypadrees
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You can hope all you want, @Rob2. But all the wishing and hoping in the world isn’t going to reduce the number of souls that will be in Hell.
The thing that will reduce that number is prayer. Pray for yourself and for others. Pray for the whole world. Pray that as few souls as possible wind up in Hell. Pray that as many will be in Heaven as God wills. His Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.
The thing that will reduce that number is prayer. Pray for yourself and for others. Pray for the whole world. Pray that as few souls as possible wind up in Hell. Pray that as many will be in Heaven as God wills. His Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.
You consider my statement about St Faustina stupid (St Faustina was condemned by the Church)
I note:
So, Pius XII put the writings of Sr. Faustina on the Index of Prohibited Books. That meant that he considered that their content would lead Catholics astray or in the wrong direction.
Next, came other prohibitions made by Pope John XXIII. Twice in his pontificate, the Holy Office issued condemnations of the Divine Mercy writings.
If the Pope wants to correct the faithful on a particular topic, he usually does this through the Holy Office. So, the proclamations, declarations and documents issued by the Holy Office may be seen as coming from the Pope himself.
Not once, but twice under Pope John XXIII, this particular devotion was condemned through the Holy Office. The first condemnation was in a plenary meeting held on November 19, 1958. The declaration from the Holy Office issued these three statements about this devotion:
- There is no evidence of the supernatural origin of these revelations. This means that the members of the Holy Office examined the content and decided that there was nothing there to indicate the apparitions were supernatural.
- No feast of Divine Mercy should be instituted. Why? Because if it is based on apparitions that are not clearly coming from God, then it would be rash and temerarious to institute a feast in the Church based on something that is a false apparition.
- It is forbidden to disseminate writings propagating this devotion under the form received by Sr. Faustina, as well as the image typical of it . So, it was forbidden to even publish the image of Our Lord as Divine Mercy.
Principal error: It presents an unconditional mercy
https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f072_DivMercy.htm
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Bonaventurian
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Pope St. John XXIII did not care for the Fatima apparitions either, and the Divine Mercy devotion was later approved by Pope St. John Paul II and the feast established. Therefore, what was once condemned is now approved.
I am currently halfway through St. Faustina’s diary, and it does not preach “unconditional mercy” as you or Tradition in Action claim. It speaks plenty of hell and purgatory and the necessity of repentance. Not to say it is perfect, I have my own issues with her revelation.
But like you said, it’s a private devotion, no one is required to believe it or any other apparition approved by the Church.
I am currently halfway through St. Faustina’s diary, and it does not preach “unconditional mercy” as you or Tradition in Action claim. It speaks plenty of hell and purgatory and the necessity of repentance. Not to say it is perfect, I have my own issues with her revelation.
But like you said, it’s a private devotion, no one is required to believe it or any other apparition approved by the Church.
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Gab123
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Again, your statement on St Faustina is stupid. She went on to be canonized didn’t she? Realize that St. Margaret Mary and the devotion to the Sacred Heart was also initially banned, but now is a feast of the universal Church as is St Faustina’s Divine Mercy Sunday. Even St. Padre Pio banned from hearing confessions and saying public mass for a while because enemies calumniated him. In the end the truth came out and so the Church celebrates them.
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The infallibe Church seems to get things wrong, as you show.
But whether my statements are stupid or not are not the focus of this thread.
Perhaps we should leave it with your opinion concerning my stupidity.
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