Go to Hell - Stay there forever

[Gab123]

The infallibe Church seems to get things wrong, as you show.

Fallible men get things wrong, yes; but Jesus is the head of the Church and He is infallible.

I think this conversation on hell is beating a dead horse, ultimately it is beginning to waste everyone’s time. Yes, God is all merciful, but man is free to choose good or evil. Death, Judgment, Heaven or Hell awaits us all.

The end.

 

[Gab123]

it’s a private devotion, no one is required to believe it

No one is required to believe it for salvation, but the Church adopts it as worthy of belief, as it simply confirms what Scripture states and what the Church has always taught.

 

[Latin]

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Catechism
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence.

Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).

God is the sole ruler of the world. His will governs all things. He loves all men, desires the salvation of all, and His providence extends to all nations.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm

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PRODUCT OF MOLINISM

CCC 600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace .

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PRODUCT OF THOMISM

CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.
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If we look above 600, 196-1998, and if we don’t know the differences between Thomism and Molinism, we think all good but if we know the differences, we know it is very far from all good.

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IN THOMISM

God is the sole ruler of the world. His will with sufficient and efficacious graces governs all things.
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When God wills that we reject His grace He provides us a sufficient grace, we every time reject the grace and commit an act of sin and God converts our sin it into a greater good.
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When God wills we cooperate with His grace, He provides us an efficacious grace and we every time freely and without any force, infallibly cooperate and we choose the good God wills for us.
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IN THOMISM with the provisions of sufficient and efficacious graces everyone is under God’s rule and with His gift of Final Perseverance leads every recipients safely to heaven.

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IN MOLINISM

God is NOT the sole ruler of the world. Man’s will governs his actions, includes his salvation with God’s aide of sufficient graces.
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God’s call to cooperation, includes His call to heaven, He provides only sufficient graces, this grace itself is NOT sufficient, only man’s consent (without any other aids) makes it efficacious.
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But without God’s aides described below, NO ONE CAN CONSENT/ COOPERATE with sufficient graces.
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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
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CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES , and ELICITS the free response of man. …”

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ACCORDING TO THE CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA MOLINISM
Molinism, stand in direct opposition to the principles of Thomism.

So, every Catholic have to choose which one believe, no one can believe both at the same time.
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Likewise no one can believe the Molinist CCC 600; etc. and the Thomist CCC 308; CCC 2022; CCCS 1996-1998; etc. at the same time.

If we know the differences between Thomism and Molinism we know which CCC is Thomist and which CCC is Molinist.
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God bless

 

[Vico]

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The Church does not require a particular theory of the faithful, rather only the assent to the dogmas. The Catechism does not endorse a theory but presents the teaching on particular points. There are those theories which have been presented in an attempt to integrated those points with some rational arguments, and there are many more than you mentioned. Note that Thomasism does not represent what St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, but latter developments of neo-scholasticism. There are also eastern Catholic viewpoints and mystical views.

You wrote: “Likewise no one can believe the Molinist CCC 600; etc. and the Thomist CCC 308; CCC 2022; CCCS 1996-1998; etc. at the same time.”

A Catholic accepts each point in the Catechism without conflict with the dogmas that must be assented to.

There is no conflict between 600 and 308 for example, there is permissive will. Luke 8:32 “A herd of many swine was feeding there on the hillside, and they pleaded with him to allow them to enter those swine; and he let them.”

 

[Gab123]

ACCORDING TO

Wrong.

Ezekiel 18:20-32 explains:

“But if a wicked man turns away from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness which he has done he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and does the same abominable things that the wicked man does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds which he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, he shall die.

“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die for it; for the iniquity which he has committed he shall die. Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is lawful and right, he shall save his life. Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?

“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, says the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed against me, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of any one, says the Lord God; so turn, and live.”

 

[NoelFitz]

One can “hope.” More than that, the church is obliged to hope, pray and work for the salvation of all.

Again well said. Your posts get to the truth every time.

The fires of Hell are punishment,

Punishinga a soul that is good, made by God, for all eternity does not seem merciful.

I’ve already spent more time on this debate today than I should.

So have I.

I agree, most fundamentalists are pretty easy to pick apart,

Some fundamenalist are sharp and clever…
But we are getting off-topic.

Not repenting is the same choice that sealed the bad angels’ fate.

It is believed that a third of the angels fell. This does not say much for God. Why did these angels reject God once they had the chance?

I haven’t read much Padre Pio,

I have problems with Padre Pio, and his alleged stigmata.

I always have struggled with this. So basically it’s like saying well I can’t force my child to love me, so I guess the only alternative is to put my child into a lake of fire forever? I feel Good is all powerful. God set all this up beforehand. I just feel like we love our children enough that if we created them, hell would never have been an option, no matter if they loved us back or not.

Agreed, well said. And if we were almighty we would make our children see the good and love us and all things.

Predestination of the elect explains the reason.

A thread devoted to predestination would be helpful.
I was taught in school that Catholics believe in free will, while Protestans believe in predestination.

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Lord, you are good and forgiving, most merciful to all who call on you. (NABRE, Ps 86:5)

Jesus’ only judgement is one filled with mercy and Compassion (Pope Francis, Misericordia et Misera, No 1)

 

[Gab123]

This does not say much for God. Why did these angels reject God once they had the chance?

They did not want to serve God; they wanted to make themselves God; the sin of pride.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

A thread devoted to predestination would be helpful.
I was taught in school that Catholics believe in free will, while Protestans believe in predestination.

I’m not getting super involved in this thread again, but I just wanted to help explain this.

Catholics believe in Predestination such that God predestines certain souls for Heaven, and grants them an abundance of grace in order to accomplish some specific task that is necessary during their lives. (Please note, I’m speaking in very non-technical terms. I want to make it clear that I’m not trying to say God removed their free will or anything like that.) The main example I would point to is Mary, who was preserved form the stain or original sin through a special grace of God. This sort of predestination is in keeping with Church teaching.

The predestination that Protestants refer to, specifically what Calvinists teach, is that God not only predestines souls for Heaven, but also for Hell, and that no actions you take in life can change your destination. You could be the most egregious sinner on Earth, but if God selected you for Heaven when you were born, then that’s where you’re going. Similarly, you could be a saintly individual, but if God made you to go to Hell, that’s where you’re going.

I think it’s pretty easy to see why Catholics, and honestly anyone who actually believes that God is all good, would reject the latter version.

As for the question of why God doesn’t give everyone an superabundant grace and “predestine” them for Heaven, we can’t really say. It might be that He does offer such graces to everyone, but only a very small number accept it, I don’t know.

 

[Elf01]

Catholics believe in Predestination such that God predestines certain souls for Heaven, and grants them an abundance of grace in order to accomplish some specific task that is necessary during their lives. (Please note, I’m speaking in very non-technical terms. I want to make it clear that I’m not trying to say God removed their free will or anything like that.) The main example I would point to is Mary, who was preserved form the stain or original sin through a special grace of God. This sort of predestination is in keeping with Church teaching

I don’t see the difference between not predestining someone to heaven and predestining them to hell.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I don’t see the difference between not predestining someone to heaven and predestining them to hell.

Because in the Catholic understanding of predestination, the option for Heaven is open to those who are not actively predestined. The means of salvation are still open to all, we just have to take advantage of them.

In double predestination, if you’re going to Hell, you are going to Hell, period. Nothing you say or do can change it. That is massively different form the Catholic position that Hell is a real possibility, but we only go there based on our own actions and choices. If we let Him, God will save us.

 

[Latin]

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect.

Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise.
For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.
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Ante prævisa merita
Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment.
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The COUNTERPART of the predestination of the good is the decree the Divine "reprobation."
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The conceptual difference between the two kinds of reprobation lies in this:

The Catholic reprobation is NEGATIVE REPROBATION, called the Degree the Divine Reprobation.

Merely implies *the absolute will not to grant the bliss of heaven, though not positively predestined to hell, yet they are absolutely predestined not to go to heaven (cf. above, I, B).

The Calvinistic reprobation is POSITIVE REPROBATION.

Calvinistic reprobation means the absolute will to condemn to hell.

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(Another part of the article addresses the decree the Divine reprobation

For the absolute predestination of the blessed is at the same time the ABSOLUTE will of God NOT TO ELECT a priori the rest of mankind (Suarez), or which comes to the same, to EXCLUDE them from heaven (Gonet), in other words, NOT to save them.
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Moreover, in order to realize infallibly his decree, God is compelled to frustrate the eternal welfare of all excluded a priori from heaven, and to TAKE CARE that they die in their sins.

Predestination | Catholic Answers Encyclopedia

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Of course I reject the Degree the Divine Reprobation, I believe God predestined everyone to heaven.
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God bless

 

[Rabbi]

Rest assured that there is no hell, at least in my tradition.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Latin, I find it next to impossible to read your posts.

Seriously, stop bolding so much. It makes your posts a nightmare to get through.

The elect who make it to Heaven has been fix eternally only insofar as eternity encompasses all moments of what we perceive of as time. If I am in Heaven, God has eternally known that I am in heaven, but only because, from His eternal perspective, I am already in Heaven with Him. (Or, conversely, if I am damned that God has eternally known that I am damned by virtue of my having been damned at my death)

I already said I’m not getting dragged back into this debate, but suffice it to say, God’s knowledge includes all actuality (who is in Heaven), as well as all potentiality (who has the capacity to make it to Heaven). Potentiality and actuality to not need to be the same thing in order for God’s omniscience to remain intact.

I don’t think you and I actually disagree with each other on this topic. I just think we are using vastly different language to explain our position.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Yes, but it’s absence from your tradition is no more evidence of it’s falsehood than it’s inclusion in my tradition is evidence of its existence.

In other words, there’s no inherent reason that your tradition is right, and so simply stating it as fact is not evidence or reason to reject the concept.

What if your tradition is wrong, and there is a Hell?

 

[Latin]

The elect who make it to Heaven has been fix eternally only insofar as eternity encompasses all moments of what we perceive of as time. If I am in Heaven, God has eternally known that I am in heaven, but only because, from His eternal perspective, I am already in Heaven with Him. (Or, conversely, if I am damned that God has eternally known that I am damned by virtue of my having been damned at my death)

I’m sorry ProdglArchitect, I promise I will do less bolding, I will fix even my above post.

God of course knows who are predestined to heaven because Hi is actively chosen the Predestined, it is NOT OUR CHOICE, it is God’s CHOICE.

Ante prævisa merita
Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment.

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OUR SALVATION/ PREDESTINATION TO HEAVEN IS TOTALLY GOD’S DECISION

John 6:44; No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.

While St. Thomas says that man turns to God by his own free will, he explains that free-will can only be turn to God, when God turns it.
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CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.

No ONE rejects God’s Predestination to eternal life in heaven. – DE FIDE .
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God bless

 

[ProdglArchitect]

it is God’s CHOICE.

I agree, as long as you acknowledge that we must also respond to that choice, and that God actively chooses all people (desires the salvation of all)

Prævisa merita…

That same article you linked, where you’re getting this information, goes on to discuss the problems with this sort of predestination, and how it can easily lead to the faulty double predestination.

The text provides another potential predestination which avoids the dangers of negative reprobation.

Just as in time eternal happiness depends on merit as a condition, so I intended heaven from all eternity only for foreseen merit.—It is only by reason of the infallible foreknowledge of these merits that the hypothetical decree is changed into an absolute: These and no others shall be saved.

This distinguishes it from your theory in two major ways:

first, it rejects the absolute decree and assumes a hypothetical predestination to glory; secondly, it does not reverse the succession of grace and glory in the two orders of eternal intention and of execution in time, but makes glory depend on merit in eternity as well as in the order of time.

This view coincides with many passages of scripture which clearly seem to indicate that our salvation is at least partially contingent on our response to grace and God’s call.

I reject the absolute decree, and it is perfectly licit for me to do so. It is not a dogma of the Church, but rather one of multiple potentials. However, I do also believe that God gives certain people supernaturally-abundant grace, and that most of those people do attain Heaven.

In fact, that article you linked to earlier actually puts forward this latter formulation as being far superior to Praevisa Merita.

This view not only safeguards the universality and sincerity of God’s salvific will, but coincides admirably with the teachings of St. Paul (cf. II Tim., iv, 8), who knows that there “is laid up” (reposita est, Greek: apokeitai) in heaven “a crown of justice”, which “the just judge will render” (reddet, Greek: apodosei) to him on the day of judgment.

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To conclude: no one can accuse us of boldness if we assert that the theory here presented has a firmer basis in Scripture and Tradition than the opposite opinion.

(emphasis mine)

 

[Rabbi]

The Jewish tradition is the oldest in the world. The world Sheol doesn’t mean hell, rather, the grave. But how are you sure you’re right? Now we go in circles, right? According to us, there is no hell, for G-d would be unjust otherwise. Technically, there is a temporary place called Gehenna where almost all souls go for a time of 11 months. There, the soul partakes in deep contemplation and prayer before attaining Gan Eden.

The other option is reincarnation. It was said that King David’s soul wasn’t good enough, so he won’t rise in the World to Come, rather, the second part of his soul, which was female.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

The Jewish tradition is the oldest in the world.

I have respect for Judaism, but age is not indicative of having the full truth. Otherwise, Zoroastrianism would give Judaism a run for its money.

But how are you sure you’re right? Now we go in circles, right?

Correct. If we go purely based on what each sect believes, we’ll go in circles.

That is why we must also use our reason, which is why we delve so deeply into philosophy on these topics.

The other option is reincarnation. It was said that King David’s soul wasn’t good enough, so he won’t rise in the World to Come, rather, the second part of his soul, which was female.

I was unaware that any Jewish sects taught that reincarnation was a possibility.

Obviously, Catholicism rejects this, as it does the notion that a soul has both feminine and masculine parts.

 

[Rabbi]

You really think Zoroastrianism is older than Judaism? Judaism accepts both reincarnation and the soul being both genders.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

You really think Zoroastrianism is older than Judaism?

I didn’t say older than, only that it gives it a run for it’s money.