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Latin
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Go to Hell - Stay there forever
- Thread starter NoelFitz
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Rabbi
Guest
So Jesus fulfilled all of them? I don’t know about that. Let’s get a look.
Did Jesus restore all the Jews to Israel? They all lived there back then (Isaiah 11:11-12, 27:12-13, 43:5-6, Jeremiah 16:15, 23:3, 23:8, 30:3, Zechariah 8:3-8, 10:6-10, Ezekiel 34:11-46, 36:24-28, 37:21-22, Hosea 3:4-5, Joel 4:1-2, Amos 9:14-15, Micah 2:12, Zephaniah 3:18-20).
Did Jesus build the Third Temple? Exodus 25:8, Isaiah 33:20, 56:7, Jeremiah 33:17-18, Ezekiel 37:26-28, 43:7.
Did the world recognize the one G-d? Isaiah 2:3, 11:9-10, Micah 4:2-3, Zechariah 8:23, 14:9, Jeremiah 31:33, Zephaniah 3:9.
Did all the dead rise from their graves? Isaiah 26:16, Daniel 12:2, Ezekiel 37:12-13.
Seems like a lot of prophecies Jesus didn’t complete, right?
You see, Bar Kochba didn’t do all this either, and on that basis, we reject him too.
Did Jesus restore all the Jews to Israel? They all lived there back then (Isaiah 11:11-12, 27:12-13, 43:5-6, Jeremiah 16:15, 23:3, 23:8, 30:3, Zechariah 8:3-8, 10:6-10, Ezekiel 34:11-46, 36:24-28, 37:21-22, Hosea 3:4-5, Joel 4:1-2, Amos 9:14-15, Micah 2:12, Zephaniah 3:18-20).
Did Jesus build the Third Temple? Exodus 25:8, Isaiah 33:20, 56:7, Jeremiah 33:17-18, Ezekiel 37:26-28, 43:7.
Did the world recognize the one G-d? Isaiah 2:3, 11:9-10, Micah 4:2-3, Zechariah 8:23, 14:9, Jeremiah 31:33, Zephaniah 3:9.
Did all the dead rise from their graves? Isaiah 26:16, Daniel 12:2, Ezekiel 37:12-13.
Seems like a lot of prophecies Jesus didn’t complete, right?
You see, Bar Kochba didn’t do all this either, and on that basis, we reject him too.
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ProdglArchitect
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I don’t have time to get into the whole of your passage, as it requires me to really dig into that predestination article, and I am at work.
However, I would counter this point by saying that, far from promising the salvation of all, Jesus makes it explicitly clear that the loss of salvation is possible, and even likely.
He warns against Hell more times than any other topic. In all of his parables about Hell, there is a clear delineation between the saved people and the damned.
The parable of the sower shows that only a portion of the seeds go on to grow in fruitfulness. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man is clearly damned, while Lazarus is clearly saved. Multiple times He speaks of the branch which does not bear fruit being pruned and cast into the flames. When asked directly, he says that it is a narrow route that leads to salvation, and that many take the easy path to damnation.
I do not believe it is rationally possible to believe in the NT while also believing that no one will be damned. I hate that fact, but I see it as scriptural undeniable.
Please stop claiming that your view is Catholic dogma. You are presenting one part of a potential method of predestination. That is not dogma, it is a theological position on a subject which currently has multiple acceptable answers.
And PLEASE start using the quote tool if you are quoting from somewhere. Simply saying endquote is confusing. That tool exists for a reason, USE IT.
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Rabbi
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You are so right here.
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ProdglArchitect
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So, very, very quickly, I’ll respond in that we understand the meaning of those passages differently from you.
In terms of restoring the Jews, we believe that He did, not in terms of geography, but in terms of rejoining all the lost peoples of Israel together under the banner of Christ’s kingdom.
In Catholicism, the third temple is the Church. God’s sanctuary is every Church, and He dwells among us in every tabernacle on Earth.
The world did come to recognize One God. Sure, not everyone followed suit, but monotheism spread across the planet withe the spread of Catholicism.
Two points on the rising from the dead: We believe that this is still to come at the general judgment at the end of the world. However, these is also an indication in, I think it’s Matthew’s gospel, that some people did rise from the grave with Christ’s resurrection. Whether this was a physical event, or a spiritual (similar to how we see Moses and Elijah appearing with Christ on the Mount) we don’t know.
All of these prophecies are fulfilled, just not how some Jews of the time expected them to be. Obviously, they were fulfilled to the satisfaction of a multitude of Jews, considering the massive conversion we see shortly after Christ’s death. There are more in-depth analyses of all of these passages available, I highly recommend researching them. There are also many more prophecies which Jesus did fulfill in a more explicit, literal sense.
In terms of restoring the Jews, we believe that He did, not in terms of geography, but in terms of rejoining all the lost peoples of Israel together under the banner of Christ’s kingdom.
In Catholicism, the third temple is the Church. God’s sanctuary is every Church, and He dwells among us in every tabernacle on Earth.
The world did come to recognize One God. Sure, not everyone followed suit, but monotheism spread across the planet withe the spread of Catholicism.
Two points on the rising from the dead: We believe that this is still to come at the general judgment at the end of the world. However, these is also an indication in, I think it’s Matthew’s gospel, that some people did rise from the grave with Christ’s resurrection. Whether this was a physical event, or a spiritual (similar to how we see Moses and Elijah appearing with Christ on the Mount) we don’t know.
All of these prophecies are fulfilled, just not how some Jews of the time expected them to be. Obviously, they were fulfilled to the satisfaction of a multitude of Jews, considering the massive conversion we see shortly after Christ’s death. There are more in-depth analyses of all of these passages available, I highly recommend researching them. There are also many more prophecies which Jesus did fulfill in a more explicit, literal sense.
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ProdglArchitect
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So right where? Please quote what you’re referencing, it makes it way easier to follow the conversation. >_>
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Gab123
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The same reason why Muslims reject Jesus; they are taught to do so. But all the early Christians were Jews. Interestingly, most modern Jews today are Ashkenazi Jews of European descent, and, while once considered a myth, now there is DNA evidence that the Ashkenazi are related to the Kazars after all, a population of people who converted to Judaism for political reasons.
Judaism today is not the same religion of the 1st century Jews, (there is no sacrifice of temple to speak of) but rather a rabbinical Judaism rooted in the teachings of the Talmud, which is an effort to convince Jews to reject Jesus.
Interestingly there is a huge movement flourishing in Israel —by Israeli Jews converting to Christ:
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giuseppeTO
Guest
This is not the premise laid out by the OP, which is that a ‘good’ person commits a mortal sin and is unrepentant. The ‘good’ person who is cognizant of a mortal sin on his soul and refuses to seek absolution is no longer ‘good’ in the Catholic sense of the word, even if he continues to help old ladies across the street.
Moral Theology teaches us mortal sin empties the soul of grace and from at least a spiritual perspective, kills it, as it has no life of grace within it. When in that state, the only thing separating us from hell is the thin and fragile veneer we call life. At one’s death, the doctors of the church describe the situation that the soul itself flees the presence of God as co-existance with Him in that state is impossible for eternity. But salvation is always possible, until our death. After that moment, our fate is sealed. That is how God created us, body and soul, with the soul created in such a way that it can only be completed when united with God forever.
It is amazing that Catholics find that so unfair.
Moral Theology teaches us mortal sin empties the soul of grace and from at least a spiritual perspective, kills it, as it has no life of grace within it. When in that state, the only thing separating us from hell is the thin and fragile veneer we call life. At one’s death, the doctors of the church describe the situation that the soul itself flees the presence of God as co-existance with Him in that state is impossible for eternity. But salvation is always possible, until our death. After that moment, our fate is sealed. That is how God created us, body and soul, with the soul created in such a way that it can only be completed when united with God forever.
It is amazing that Catholics find that so unfair.
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Latin
Guest
Yes I agree.
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ACCORDING THE FOLLOWING TEACHINGS I cannot imagine that anyone end up in hell.
For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the "Divine will or power is called fate. "
But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God. Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.
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The Divine will is cause of all things that happen, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.
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The same is true for events in our lives. Relative to us they often appear to be by chance.
But relative to God, who directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.
Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)
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311 For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.
324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
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321 Divine providence consists of the dispositions by which God guides all his creatures with wisdom and love to their ultimate end.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
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Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, Enchir.", xi in P.L. LX, 236; Serm.
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Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in P.L.
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This, the beneficent purpose of an all-seeing Providence, is wholly gratuitous, entirely unmerited (Romans 3:24; 9:11-2).
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It extends to every individual, adapting itself to the needs of each (St. John Chrysostom, "Hom. xxviii in Matt.", n. 3 in "P.G.", LVII, 354).
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That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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As I looking the above teachings, it seems to me; it is impossible that even one person end up in hell.
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God bless
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oliver109
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The sinner I am talking about does actually seek absolution, I was talking about a priest who sins with a woman and wants forgiveness but dies before he can get to Confession, will God have mercy on that soul even if it does not have time to make an act of perfect contrition?
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Rabbi
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Remember, we’ve gone over that Khazar bunk before. This lecture should debunk it once and for all:
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Also, see this for DNA: Khazar Myth Disproved By History, Linguistics And Genes – The Forward.
And if your proof against Judaism is that Jews are “taught” to reject Christianity’s claims, we can just reverse that. Easy. There’s no effort in that.
Again, I can prove that biblical and rabbinic Judaism are one the same, as I’ve traced the Mishnah’s roots back to First Temple times, even farther, to the book of Jeremiah and all the way to the giving of the Torah, and even, beyond that.
There’s one reason why no one offers any more sacrifices. I’ll give you a hint, it’s not because Jesus was the last sacrifice, but the answer is in the Hebrew Bible itself.
“For the sons of Israel will remain many days without a king or prince, without sacrifices… Afterwards Israel shall return and seek Adonai their G-d and David their King and they will come trembling to Adonai and to his goodness in the last days.” - Hosea 3:5
Later…
“Return, O Israel, to Adonai your G-d, for you have stumbled because of your iniquity, take words [prayer] with you and return to Adonai… so we render the words of our lips instead of bulls.” - Hosea 14:1-2
Christian translators changed that to, “The fruit of or lips.”
Even in the days when the Temple stood, G-d forgave over prayer rather than sacrifice. For instance, Daniel had his window opened in the direction of the Temple and prayed three times daily (Daniel 6:10), and King Solomon went to great pains to ease the children of Israel that even though they would be separated from the Temple, and driven across the world, G-d would still care for them, and still shower them with His blessing (1 Kings 8:47-52).
Also, see this for DNA: Khazar Myth Disproved By History, Linguistics And Genes – The Forward.
And if your proof against Judaism is that Jews are “taught” to reject Christianity’s claims, we can just reverse that. Easy. There’s no effort in that.
Again, I can prove that biblical and rabbinic Judaism are one the same, as I’ve traced the Mishnah’s roots back to First Temple times, even farther, to the book of Jeremiah and all the way to the giving of the Torah, and even, beyond that.
There’s one reason why no one offers any more sacrifices. I’ll give you a hint, it’s not because Jesus was the last sacrifice, but the answer is in the Hebrew Bible itself.
“For the sons of Israel will remain many days without a king or prince, without sacrifices… Afterwards Israel shall return and seek Adonai their G-d and David their King and they will come trembling to Adonai and to his goodness in the last days.” - Hosea 3:5
Later…
“Return, O Israel, to Adonai your G-d, for you have stumbled because of your iniquity, take words [prayer] with you and return to Adonai… so we render the words of our lips instead of bulls.” - Hosea 14:1-2
Christian translators changed that to, “The fruit of or lips.”
Even in the days when the Temple stood, G-d forgave over prayer rather than sacrifice. For instance, Daniel had his window opened in the direction of the Temple and prayed three times daily (Daniel 6:10), and King Solomon went to great pains to ease the children of Israel that even though they would be separated from the Temple, and driven across the world, G-d would still care for them, and still shower them with His blessing (1 Kings 8:47-52).
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Rabbi
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Also, there is a counter-effort for One For Israel coming soon by some rabbis in Israel who will speak on behalf to Jewish audiences. One For Israel will be soon meeting its match.
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Gab123
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I just read an article about how DNA says otherwise. The Old Testament makes no sense without Christianity and vise versa… But this topic on Judaism is driving this thread off topic. Please start another thread to deal with it there.
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Rabbi
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Well, if Jesus’ goal was to join all the Jewish people under “one banner in faith,” I must say he quite failed in that respect. Also, if you read those passages, they make it well known that they are indeed geographical, so you might be reading into the text a little.
Is the Third Temple an abstract body in the Church? I’m afraid you’ll have to reread some Ezekiel, chapters 40-48 on that one. I agree that He dwells with us, but not in any Church. Rather, He is in our heart. Don’t think for a moment that any Gothic structure is going to have cosmic ramifications. It’s just a structure of wood and stone.
Yes, monotheism has spread around somewhat, the idea for sure, but again, I think those passages are quite graphic in the sense that G-d won’t just be an idea (that most on earth reject by the way), but be accepted as the only G-d. Period. I’m sure the prophets didn’t say, “Hey, give it a try.” No. They were “All or nothing.”
As far as the resurrection of the 500 in Paul, notice how Paul doesn’t give any names, so no one could contact these people and conduct an interview. Again, I thought the text said the whole world (rabbis even said those who perished in Noah’s flood), would rise, not a just mere 500.
These are my thoughts and you have every right to disagree, no one person can claim a monopoly on what the Bible says or teaches, and I’m sure all are in agreement of that. We shouldn’t be arrogant with ourselves, if you follow me.
Is the Third Temple an abstract body in the Church? I’m afraid you’ll have to reread some Ezekiel, chapters 40-48 on that one. I agree that He dwells with us, but not in any Church. Rather, He is in our heart. Don’t think for a moment that any Gothic structure is going to have cosmic ramifications. It’s just a structure of wood and stone.
Yes, monotheism has spread around somewhat, the idea for sure, but again, I think those passages are quite graphic in the sense that G-d won’t just be an idea (that most on earth reject by the way), but be accepted as the only G-d. Period. I’m sure the prophets didn’t say, “Hey, give it a try.” No. They were “All or nothing.”
As far as the resurrection of the 500 in Paul, notice how Paul doesn’t give any names, so no one could contact these people and conduct an interview. Again, I thought the text said the whole world (rabbis even said those who perished in Noah’s flood), would rise, not a just mere 500.
These are my thoughts and you have every right to disagree, no one person can claim a monopoly on what the Bible says or teaches, and I’m sure all are in agreement of that. We shouldn’t be arrogant with ourselves, if you follow me.
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Rabbi
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Show me this so-called “article” of yours. How does Tanakh (OT) make no sense without Christianity?
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Rabbi
Guest
I agree with you, surely G-d wouldn’t damn 70% of His creation because they never heard of Jesus/Torah.
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Magnanimity
Guest
In a way, this is the point for those who continue in the immenently reasonable hope for the “apokatastasis panton” (Acts 3:21). I gave a lengthy quote somewhere above, which was a summary by Von Balthasar of the eschatological teachings of Gregory of Nyssa, Origen and Clement. Pointedly, Origen reminds us that our God is a consuming fire, but “he does not consume what is according to the image and likeness”—rather, he consumes all the accumulated wood, hay and stubble [1 Cor 3] (Dare We Hope, p. 196).
How does God consume a being made in his image? Whether such a consumption is annihilation or whether it is a subjecting of the being bearing his image to an unending torment and suffering, the image and likeness are still consumed. This image-bearer is not brought to glory, it is reduced to the worst possible state—neverending torment and suffering from which there is no exit… And why? Because of the ‘justice’ of God.
On this salvation story, we are told that basically: 1. Christ comes to rescue us from the wrath of his Father. The God who IS love is wrathful towards his creation, including his image-bearers.
2. We inherit the guilt of Adam (Augustine).
3. Because of this inherited guilt, the entire human race is deserving of damnation (also Augustine).
4. God in his inscrutable mystery will save a few from the damnation they deserve (Augustine continues).
5. The saved ones are bound for Heaven.
6. The vast majority of all humans are bound for neverending suffering and torment in the inescapable Hell.
This is the ‘gospel’ message of Augustinian Catholicism and Protestantism. The only point I’ve seen many here quibble with is the numbers part—whether most are damned. But the general message is accepted. When it is spelled out, it’s rather a bizarre message to try to give to the world.
So, in answer to the ‘gospel’ above, it seems clear to me that:
- God is love and desires to save all. He is **not ** wrath. He does not want to let me suffer endlessly—no loving being ever could want that.
- Augustine was led astray by a poor Latin translation of Rom 5:12. We do not inherit guilt (whatever that might mean), though it seems true that we inherit a propensity toward sin—and whatever guilt we earn is our own.
- Rather, bc we all bear the image and likeness of God, we are made for the Good and life and bliss. Augustine knew this “You have made us for yourself, and our hearts are restless till they find their rest in You.”
- God wants to save all and can save all.
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Rabbi
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G-d said to the prophet Isaiah, “Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil [רע]; I am Adonai, Who makes all these.”
- Isaiah 45:7. so we see here that G-d does create evil.
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Rabbi
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However, don’t worry, Rashi says the evil was created only for the Babylonians.
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Vico
Guest
The Catholic church teaches that not only is it possible to end in hell (Catechism 1861), there actually are people in hell now. Fourth Lateran Council 1215.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm
And posted before from tehe Catechism:
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