Go to Hell - Stay there forever

[Latin]

Damnation of each person is due to a personal free choice of the person

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: MOLNISM

“Molinism, stand in direct opposition to the principles of Thomism."

“If the will gives its consent, the grace which in itself is sufficient becomes efficacious; if it withholds its consent, the grace remains inefficacious."

"If the decision ultimately depends on the free will, whether a given grace shall be efficacious or not, the result of the salutary act must be attributed to man and not to God.”

“But this is contrary to the warning of St. Paul, that we must not glory in the work of our salvation as though it were our own (1 Corinthians 4:7), and to his teaching that it is Divine grace which does not only give us the power to act, but works also in us to will and to accomplish; (Philippians 2:13); it is contrary also to the constant doctrine of St. Augustine, according to whom our free salutary acts are not our own work, but the work of grace.”

“Molinists, by their undue exaltation of man’s freedom of will, seriously circumscribe and diminish the supremacy of the Creator over His creatures, so that they destroy the efficacy and predominance of grace and make impossible in the hands of God the infallible result of efficacious grace.”

“The consideration of these serious difficulties leads us to the very heart of Molina’s system, and reveals the real Gordian knot of the whole controversy.”

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“Thomism derives the infallible success of efficacious grace from the very nature of this grace, and assumes consequently the grace to be efficacious intrinsically (gratia efficax ab intrinseco).”

“Thomism assumes an intrinsic and essential difference between sufficient and efficacious grace, so that sufficient grace to become efficacious must be supplemented by a new grace.”

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10437a.htm

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THE MYSTERY OF PREDESTINATION John Salza .

“Sufficient grace gives man the potency to do good, but efficacious grace is required to move him from potency to act.

Therefore, sufficient grace is insufficient to move him to act, the power remains in potency and is never actualized.

When God wills a person to perform a salutary act (e.g., prayer, good works), He grants him the means (an efficacious grace ) that infallibly produces the end ( the act willed by God ).
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If God wills to permit a person to resist His grace, He grants him a sufficient, and not an efficacious, grace.

The distinctions between these graces reveal that God is responsible for man’s salvation.”

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As we see above, your above statement Vico, according to the principles of Molinism, absolutely correct. – In Molinism man is responsible for his damnation, his blood is in his own hands.

As we see above, your above statement Vico, according to the principles of Thomism, absolutely incorrect. – In Thomism God is responsible for man’s damnation, the blood of the damned is in God’s hands.
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God bless

 

[Vico]

…

Thomasism is not the teachings of St. Thomas Aquinas but of some like these: Cajetan, Vasquez, Toletus, Fonseca, Suarez. Dominicans.

In the Summa Theologicae, St. Thomas Aquinas states that reprobation is not a direct willing of a person to damnation, but it does allow the free will choice of the person:

Article 3. Whether God reprobates any man?
… Therefore, as predestination includes the will to confer grace and glory; so also reprobation includes the will to permit a person to fall into sin, and to impose the punishment of damnation on account of that sin. … Reprobation, however, is not the cause of what is in the present—namely, sin; … the predestined must necessarily be saved; yet a conditional necessity, which does not do away with the liberty of choice. Whence, although anyone reprobated by God cannot acquire grace, nevertheless that he falls into this or that particular sin comes from the use of his free-will. Hence it is rightly imputed to him as guilt.

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm#article3

 

[Matthew25]

One of my favorite passages (thus my name for this site, Matthew 25). When that whole passage is read it’s about how we as individuals and society treats the poor, marginalized, and hurting…Jesus himself. That is “real presence”. Those who believe in Christ will practice those commands.

 

[Latin]

Thomasism is not the teachings of St. Thomas Aquinas but of some like these: Cajetan, Vasquez, Toletus, Fonseca, Suarez. Dominicans.

This is above what I mean when I say Thomism.

Daniel 12:4 says, in time, … the knowledge shall increase.

Not forgetting the past of course, for the teachings of Cajetan, Vasquez, Toletus, Fonseca, Suarez. Dominicans. Brings clearer light and better understanding of God’s love and His vehement salvific will and His Mighty work in us in order to save all of us.

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The teachings that God saves everyone has become very popular in the modern Roman Catholic Church and more and more Catholic Priests teaching; God saves everyone of us.
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I believe Pope Francis also agree with the teaching that God saves every one of us because he is the one who replaced Cardinal Gerhard Müller who was the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith until 02/07/2017, with Archbishop Luis F. Ladaria, Jesuit theologian who is openly teaching, God saves all of us since many years.

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In my opinion:
If Pope Francis would not agree God will saves everyone of us, he would not replace Cardinal Gerhard Müller with Archbishop Luis F. Ladaria, Jesuit theologian who is openly teaching God will saves everyone of us since many years.

There is also a very good book on the teachings that God saves everyone:

Jesus Christ Salvation of All by Luis F. Ladaria SJ (Author)

ABOUT THE AUTHOR
Archbishop Luis F. Ladaria, a Jesuit theologian who is the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has been a professor of theology at the Pontifical Gregorian University of Rome since 1984.
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Archbishop Ladaria has been secretary, the second in command, of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith since 2008 until 02/07/2017 and from this date on Pope Francis appointed Ladaria SJ. to the position of the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

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Jesus Christ Salvation of All by Luis F. Ladaria SJ.

Quote: “Jesus includes everyone and excludes no one, and all of us have received his fullness (cfr. John 1:16).

The universality of salvation and unity of Christ’s mediation mutually affirm each other [p. 144].

Yet by dying, he gave us life, that is the life of his resurrection.

Even those who do not know him are called to this divine vocation, that is, to the perfect son-ship in and through Christ.

Christians and non-Christians reach this goal by virtue of the gift of the Spirit that associates us with the unique paschal ministry of Christ even if it is through diverse paths known only to God [p. 148-149].”
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I’m sure Vico, you know what is the role of the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in the Catholic Church.
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It was founded to defend the church from heresy; today, it is the body responsible for promulgating and defending Catholic doctrine.

Formerly known as the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition.
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Daniel 12:4; … the knowledge shall increase.
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God bless

 

[Vico]

…

Regarding Archbishop Luis F. Ladaria: it is his private belief but not that of the Catholic Church. As St. Pope John Paul II wrote, officially published, for a particular individual:

Damnation remains a real possibility, but it is not granted to us, without special divine revelation, to know which human beings are effectively involved in it.

https://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_28071999.html

 

[Latin]

28 July 1999 | John Paul II

John Paul II stated:
“But man, called to respond to him freely, can unfortunately choose to reject his love and forgiveness once and for all, thus separating himself for ever from joyful communion with him.
In a theological sense however, hell is something else: it is the ultimate consequence of sin itself, which turns against the person who committed it.”

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The above teachings of John Paul II on Wednesday 28 July 1999 was a textbook case of Molinism.

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The statements of the Catechism on the same subject:

311 For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.
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324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.

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The statements of the Catholic Encyclopedia Divine Providence on the same subject:

Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil.
Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,
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This, the beneficent purpose of an all-seeing Providence, is wholly gratuitous, entirely unmerited (Romans 3:24; 9:11-2).
It extends to every individual, adapting itself to the needs of each.
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Again, from the fact that God has created the universe, it shows that He must also govern it; for just as the contrivances of man demand attention and guidance, so God, as a good workman, must care for His work.
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That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: MOLNISM

“Molinism, stand in direct opposition to the principles of Thomism.”

“Molinists, by their undue exaltation of man’s freedom of will, seriously circumscribe and diminish the supremacy of the Creator over His creatures, so that they destroy the efficacy and predominance of grace and make impossible in the hands of God the infallible result of efficacious grace.”
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Molinism designed on the ground to make man the scapegoat for hell, in the design, Molinism makes impossible in the hands of God the infallible result of efficacious grace, as the result, God is unable to govern the human race, in addition God lost His Power and His Deity. – Plane and simple.
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In Molinism the creature has the supremacy aver his Creator, God doesn’t have the power to govern His creation.
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According to Thomism/ Thomasism, God is responsible for man’s salvation, because God has the supremacy over His creation and God is the One who governs His creation.
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God bless

 

[Vico]

…

Catechism

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification 594 or immediately, 595 – or immediate and everlasting damnation. 596

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.597

594 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274)S 857-858; Council of Florence (1439)S 1304- 1306; Council of Trent (1563)S 1820.
595 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336)S 1000-1001; John XXII, Ne super his (1334)S 990.
596 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336)S 1002.

Three required theses to avoid conflict with Catholic dogma:

a) At least in the order of execution in time (in ordine executionis) the meritorious works of the predestined are the partial cause of their eternal happiness;
b) hell cannot even in the order of intention (in ordine intentionis) have been positively decreed to the damned, even though it is inflicted on them in time as the just punishment of their misdeeds;
c) there is absolutely no predestination to sin as a means to eternal damnation.
CE.

1. Thomists and a few Molinists (Ballarmine, Suarez, Lugo) - ante prævisa merita
negative reprobation “cannot be harmonized with the dogmatically certain universality and sincerity of God’s salvific will.” CE.

2. Early Scholastics (Hales, Magnus) and Molinists (the majority of them) - post prævisa merita “safeguards the universality and sincerity of God’s salvific will” CE.

CE. Pohle, J. (1911). Predestination. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

 

[Kyparissiotes]

The Catholic Faith teaches that those who die without explicit faith in Christ will not be saved.

An official Creed of our Church-

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

 

[Kyparissiotes]

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.

This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

 

[Latin]

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, – or immediate and everlasting damnation.

324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.

Not even one Catholic in the whole world, at the same time could believe the Molinist 1022 and the Thomist 324, because Molinism, stand in direct opposition to the principles of Thomism.

Three required theses to avoid conflict with Catholic dogma:

a) I agree. – Built on Thomism.
b) … just punishment (of hell for) their misdeeds; – I disagree!!! Built on Molinism.
c) I agree. – Built on Thomism.

Every paragraph of the CATECHISM which built on Thomism and the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence as follows disagree with b).

311 For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.
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294 The ultimate purpose of creation is that God "who is the creator of all things may at last become all in all thus simultaneously assuring his own glory and our beatitude.
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321 Divine providence consists of the dispositions by which God guides all his creatures with wisdom and love to their ultimate end.
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Not even one Catholic in the whole world, could believe the Molinist “just punishment of hell” for the sin which God wills and permits for the reason to convert the permitted sin into a greater good.

The sin which God does not will permissively, He does not permit and that sin never happen.

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MYSTERY OF PREDESTINATION by John Salza

Page 113: “However, the Church teaches that God infused Adam with sufficient grace to resist temptation and to perform his duties with charity.

God, however, willed to permit Adam to reject His grace and to sin.”

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Someone may say, that is God’s permissive will, that may correct, but God actively wills His permissive will and God’s permissive will is NEVER OUTSIDE of His active will.

God’s Permissive Will ALWAYS SERVES His active will.

God permits acts of sins which leads to the accomplishment of His active will.

This is what God allows, even though it is sin.
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God allowed Joseph’s brothers to betray him, and to deceive their father, so that He might bring the Israelites (few in number) to Egypt, where God would spare them, and they would greatly multiply (Genesis 50:20).

But in all of this, God is still in control, and His active will by the aids of His permissive will are being accomplished.
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Keys to understand:
God’s permissive will is NEVER OUTSIDE of His active will.
God actively wills the provision of His permissive will.
Our salvation is God’s active will.
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God bless

 

[Vico]

a) I agree. – Built on Thomism.
b) … just punishment (of hell for) their misdeeds; – I disagree!!! Built on Molinism.
c) I agree. – Built on Thomism.
…

b) hell cannot even in the order of intention ( in ordine intentionis ) have been positively decreed to the damned, even though it is inflicted on them in time as the just punishment of their misdeeds;

In Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott has:

God, by an Eternal Resolve of His Will, predestines certain men, on account of their foreseen sins, to eternal rejection. (De fide.)

Denzinger 322

“faithfully we confess the predestination of the elect to life, and the predestination of the impious to death; in the election, moreover, of those who are to be saved, the mercy of God precedes the merited good. In the condemnation, however, of those who are to be lost, the evil which they have deserved precedes the just judgment of God.” – Council of Valence III 855 A.D.Against John Scotus

http://patristica.net/denzinger/#n300

The Catholic Encyclopedia is correct on the dogmatic status of the three required beliefs, having the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur approbations of the Catholic Church.

Nothing is built on Thomasism or Molinism in the Catechism, but rather on the dogmas of the Church. On the theories of predestination, Pope Paul V made a decision:

Finally, after twenty years of discussion public and private, and eighty-five conferences in the presence of the popes, the question was not solved but an end was put to the disputes. The pope’s decree communicated (5 September, 1607) to both Dominicans and Jesuits, allowed each party to defend its own doctrine, enjoined each from censoring or condemning the opposite opinion, and commanded them to await, as loyal sons of the Church, the final decision of the Apostolic See. That decision, however, has not been reached, and both orders, consequently, maintain their respective theories, just as any other theological opinion is held.

Astrain, A. (1908). Congregatio de Auxiliis. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04238a.htm

 

[Latin]

Finally, after twenty years of discussion public and private, and eighty-five conferences in the presence of the popes, the question was not solved …

Since than our knowledge is greatly increased (Dan.12:4), today we don’t need even twenty minutes to know the truth on the subject, we need only the time, the time we need to read the following excerpt from the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: MOLINISM.

“Molinists, by their undue exaltation of man’s freedom of will, seriously circumscribe and diminish the supremacy of the Creator over His creatures, so that they destroy the efficacy and predominance of grace and make impossible in the hands of God the infallible result of efficacious grace.”

As you see above Vico, we need about twenty seconds to read the above excerpt, so we need only twenty seconds to see the truth that the Molinist system CAN NOT BE TRUE because the system dethrones God, makes God powerless to govern the human race, as the result God lost His DEITY, because His creation has the supremacy aver their creator.
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Molinism designed on the ground to make man the scapegoat for hell, in the design, Molinism makes impossible in the hands of God the infallible result of efficacious grace, as the result, God is unable to govern the human race.
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In Molinism the creature has the supremacy aver His Creator, God doesn’t have the power to govern His creation.

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Here the question is NOT: Does the creation has the power to reject efficacious grace or not?
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The question IS: Does efficacious grace has the infallible result by enlightens the mind of the receiver and the receiver every time FREELY choose the good, does efficacious grace gives the power to the receiver that the receiver EVERY TIME, FREELY and INFALLIBLY, WITHOUT ANY FORCE cooperate with efficacious graces and to complete the task for the grace is provided?

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If the answer to the above question is:
Efficacious grace always has the infallible result , the task for God has given every time freely without any force, infallibly accomplished, then God is sitting on His Throne and He is Governing everything, includes the entire human race and He is the Supreme ruler of the Universe and the entire human ace will end up in heaven.

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If the answer to the above question is:
The cooperation with efficacious graces depends on the whims of man, then God is dethroned, man has the supremacy over his creator, God has no power to Govern and lost His Deity, He has no power to save anyone, His is in fact not the God who can do all things, He is in fact not God at all.

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The supremacy of the Creator over His creation and even His Deity, STAND or FALL on the infallible result of His efficacious graces.
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CCC 308 … God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
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God bless

 

[Vico]

…

The Church does not endorse one theory or another. What is needed to assent to the dogmas.

Catechism

1037 … God predestines no one to go to hell; 620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. …
837 … Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. …
1261 … As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. …

 

[Rabbi]

It is your belief that G-d is triune and that those who are non-Catholics go to hell to burn like hot dogs on the grill. This isn’t the Jewish position. If G-d truly damns a third of the world to hell, and those 6 million who’s only crime was never hearing a word about Jesus, I’m sure everyone here on this forum would agree with me that we’d rather be in hell for all eternity than worship such a ruthless, egocentric monster.

Also note that Second Vatican disagrees with your asserstion that all non-Catholics go to hell.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

If G-d truly damns a third of the world to hell, and those 6 million who’s only crime was never hearing a word about Jesus

We do not teach this.

#1: We do not know the number of the souls in Hell, only that each damned soul is there by their free will choice.

#2: We do not believe that simply not hearing about Jesus is sufficient reason for damnation. Each person is judged based on their knowledge and circumstances. It is simply that Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Light, and knowledge of Him is the surest way to attain salvation.

 

[Rabbi]

I understand Catholic teaching, it’s just that I was responding to this other user who seems to have said the opposite.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

My bad, sorry >_>.

 

[Rabbi]

You’re good.

 

[GospelOfMatthew]

I have heard that as painful as hell is, both physically and spiritually as there is an absense of God. I have heard that because the mercy of God is so great, that hell is less painful then it would be without His mercy. Despite not being present in hell, God still has compassion and mercy enough where while the pain is horrendous, it could be even worse.

Has anyone heard this or no?

 

[Rabbi]

The Jewish hell is different than the Christian one - it is a place of contemplation and soul-searching and study of Torah and NOT a painful experience.