Go to Hell - Stay there forever

[Rabbi]

Plus, it only lasts 11 months.

 

[GospelOfMatthew]

@Rabbi What happens after?

 

[Rabbi]

I’m sorry, after, the soul enters heaven. Unless one is reincarnated to live again and correct past mistakes.

 

[Pattylt]

Rabbi, I was raised in Orthodox Judaism and never, ever heard of the possibility of reincarnation. I left years ago so maybe things have changed or, being female, it isn’t discussed with women?

 

[GospelOfMatthew]

Jewish faith speaks of reincarnation? I am confused.

I have many Jewish relatives and myself an ethnically half-Jewish. But I have never heard of this reincarnation belief

 

[Neithan]

Free will is essentially a real ability to choose not-God. If that is real, then there must be an end for those who choose that. Or else free will is an illusion.

God is so merciful, that even mortal sin is not enough to condemn a soul. A person has to not only destroy their relationship with God through mortal sin, but finally reject the Holy Spirit (blasphemy against, or eternal sin). No one can claim to have had a morally good life if they deliberately, with full knowledge and freedom, commit grave evil and show contempt for the greatest good. Someone who goes to hell is not committing a sin as if it was a moment or period in time, but choosing to persist in an existence of sin and remain in it.

Still, I empathize with the struggle to understand, because even if we can see how hell is necessary, it is difficult to reconcile with God’s infinite mercy. I hope no one goes to hell, but it must be at least a real possibility for free will to have real meaning.

 

[oliver109]

Good answer but how is one certain that they are persisting in sin or not and what marks the boundary between a mortal sinner who is hellbound versus a mortal sinner who may occasionally commit mortal sins but still seeks forgiveness and strives to live a life where he avoids sin as much as he can?

 

[Neithan]

All the types of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (“eternal sin”): despair, presumption, resisting truth, resenting goodness, obstinacy and final impenitence — they are all things you would have to know that you are doing, or you are not doing them. Also if you commit a grave evil and don’t know it is, then it’s not mortal. [A series of mortal sins raises the question of obstinacy. If it’s an addiction of grave sin (like a vice of gluttony, lust or wrath) the force of the habit might remove the full freedom necessary for it to be mortal in each instant, but that is for a spiritual director to counsel.]

 

[Kyparissiotes]

Blame our creed. I just showed it.

But your objection is a caricature. For all men are born with a capacity to know God, and all those could come to faith in him. But if they do not, it is through purposeful neglect and perversion of the very truth revealed in created beings.

And those who are faithful are brought to knowledge of Christ. Those who die without faith in him will be lost, for faith in him is necessary by a necessity of means- he cannot be bypassed to obtain heaven.

It is not that anyone is punished simply for dying ignorant- it is that their state of dying in ignorance is their own fault- for if they acknowledged the truth of God manifest in nature, they would be brought to true faith and full knowledge.

But their continued sinfulness and negligence of the good is the basis of their condemnation, not simply ignorance.

All who die without faith will die having corrupted the moral order.

 

[Rabbi]

Well, now I’m curious what you wrote and why you decided to withdraw it! Please pm me and I’ll answer your question to the best of my ability.

 

[Rabbi]

It is gilgulim, it’s Kabbalistic in nature. The soul makes transmigrations to fix past mistakes of hurt one’s done to another in a past life. There are many levels to the soul and one aspect of a soul may return to earth while another doesn’t. Of course, there’s always a soul in heaven. Which body/soul will resurrect when the Messiah comes? The Rebbe was also posed this question, and he pointed to the fact that every 7 years, the full body regenerates. So let’s say your soul never reincarnated anyway, which version of you will awaken in the Messianic Age? Why ask such a question? Let’s leave it to HaShem, said the Rebbe.

This teaching won’t be found in Gemara and there are passing references to it in Tanakh but it’s really up to your interpretation. I’m not sure why you’ve never heard of it, but hey, you learn something new every day!

 

[Rabbi]

What are you talking about? All men and women born know G-d? Does His grace not extend to non-Catholics, in your opinion? How unlucky then was the Buddha, Gandhi, and Aristotle. I’m sure it wasn’t “purposeful neglect and perversion,” as they likely never got the chance to hear about Jesus, many millions having been born before Jesus ever stepped foot on earth. Also, I’m sure all of these three individuals had good moral character that wasn’t “corrupted,” but I guess that means salt in your opinion, and we can therefore assume they’re roasting in hell like hot dogs, at least this grill, is eternal.

Let’s play a thought experiment. Let’s pretend your 90 year old grandmother just passed, and she was… of all things, a rock worshiper. However, she was the greatest grandmother on earth and loved her family with an undying heart. Is she really in hell? Really? Would the Creator be that cruel? I think this guy got to chill out a little! I mean, how the heck to you determine that Jesus died for your sins through “the truth of God manifest in nature”? I’m sure many would like to hear an explanation for that one!

Again, we Jews don’t perceive G-d in such light. Maybe it’s just us being Jewish, but we don’t claim to know who’s taking which train ride after death. Well, on second thought, I’d like a quick stop at Willoughby.

 

[Latin]

1037 … God predestines no one to go to hell; 620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. …
837 … Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. …

OUR SALVATION/ PREDESTINATION TO HEAVEN IS TOTALLY GOD’S DECISION

John 6:44; No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.

While St. Thomas says that man turns to God by his own free will, he explains that free-will can only be turn to God, when God turns it.

CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.

John 15:16; You did not choose Me, but I chose you.

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NO RECEIVER OF GOD’S GIFT OF EFFICACIOUS GRACE OF FINAL PERSEVERANCE LOSE SALVATION

INFALLIBLE teachings of the Trent and FORMAL teachings of the Catholic Church, no one Can be saved without God’s great gift of perseverance, and no receiver of this gift can lose salvation.

At baptism every elect, CALLED TO ETERNAL LIFE is a recipient of God’s free gift of special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, which is an INFALLIBLE Protection of the Salvation/ Everlasting Life of every elect of God.

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THE MYSTERY OF PREDESTINATION by John Salza
"He grants the efficacious grace of perseverance only to His elect."
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As we see above, in the light of the teachings of Catholic Soteriology, CCC 1037 and CCC 837 even they are true, they have zero significance, practically they are null and void because it is not up to us who dies in the state of mortal sin, God’s predestination to heaven decided it from all eternity.
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If God would predestine everyone to heaven, everyone would receive His gift efficacious grace of Final Perseverance, in this case, NO ONE WOULD END UP IN HELL.
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I believe the way known only to God, He has predestined everyone to heaven and the way known only to God, everyone receives His gift efficacious grace of Final Perseverance. – His duty of care and His Love and Justice DEMANDS IT.

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HERE IS GOD’S ANSWER AS FOLLOWS

311 For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.

321 Divine providence consists of the dispositions by which God guides all his creatures with wisdom and love to their ultimate end.

324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
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God bless

 

[Vico]

…

Denzinger 814, Council of Trent:

Can. 4. If anyone shall say that man’s free will moved and aroused by God does not cooperate by assenting to God who rouses and calls, whereby it disposes and prepares itself to obtain the grace of justification, and that it cannot dissent, if it wishes, but that like something inanimate it does nothing at all and is merely in a passive state: let him be anathema.

Errors (5) of Cornelius Jansen [Excerpts from “Augustinus” and condemned in the Constitutions “Cum occasione,” May 31. 1658] Declared and condemned as heretical.

1093 2. In the state of fallen nature one never resists interior grace.

Errors of the Jansenists [Condemned in a Decr. of the Holy Office, Dec. 7, 1690]

1296 6. Grace sufficient for our state is not so much useful as pernicious, so that we can justly pray: From sufficient grace deliver us, O Lord.

The above are for these two:

• The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistible. (De fide.)
• There is a grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious (gratia vere et mere sufficiens). (De fide.)

There are other theological speculations on how this is so (quotes from Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma). However we are not required to embrace any of them.

Augustinianism (Noris, Berti): “does not adequately explain the infallible success of efficacious grace, or the Divine prescience.”

Thomasism (Banez): “But the question as to how gratia sufficiens is truly sufficient. and how the freedom of will is to be reconciled with gratia efficax give rise to serious difficulties in this system.”

Molinism (Molina): “The explanation of the infallible foreknowledge by God of the outcome of man’s free choice by Scientia Media and the consequent infallible efficacy of gratia efficax is very obscure in this system.”

Congruism (Suarez, Bellarmine, Aquaviva): “God, by Scientia Media, foresees the congruity of the grace and its infallible success.”

Syncretism (theologians ofthe Sorbonne Ysambert, Habert, Tournely, Ligouri): “It distinguishes two kinds of efficacious grace.” , “The Syncretistic System unites in itself almost all the difficulties of the various systems of grace.”

 

[Neithan]

Let’s play a thought experiment. Let’s pretend your 90 year old grandmother just passed, and she was… of all things, a rock worshiper. However, she was the greatest grandmother on earth and loved her family with an undying heart. Is she really in hell? Really? Would the Creator be that cruel? I think this guy got to chill out a little! I mean, how the heck to you determine that Jesus died for your sins through “the truth of God manifest in nature”? I’m sure many would like to hear an explanation for that one!

Hm. Rabbi, do you really think this is what we believe or are you setting up “straw man” oversimplifications? It’s fun to do and feels like vindicating one’s own perspective, but not very productive to reach mutual understanding. Here is an article on orthodox belief from the old Catholic Encyclopedia: “While truth must be intolerant of error (2 Corinthians 6:14, 15), the Church does not deny the possibility of salvation of those earnest and sincere persons outside her fold who live and die in invincible ignorance of the true faith (cf. Council of the Vatican, Sess. III, cp. iii, Denz., 1794; S Aug., Ep.xliii ad Galerium).”

I quote from this old article because it was written decades before the Second Vatican Council, so it shows the continuity of teaching.

 

[Rabbi]

Yes, I agree with you. My response was not directed at Catholic teaching but this person who seems to disagree with us both on what is taught.

 

[Magnanimity]

Article 3. Whether God reprobates any man?
… Therefore, as predestination includes the will to confer grace and glory; so also reprobation includes the will to permit a person to fall into sin, and to impose the punishment of damnation on account of that sin. … Reprobation, however, is not the cause of what is in the present—namely, sin; … the predestined must necessarily be saved; yet a conditional necessity, which does not do away with the liberty of choice. Whence, although anyone reprobated by God cannot acquire grace, nevertheless that he falls into this or that particular sin comes from the use of his free-will. Hence it is rightly imputed to him as guilt.

It’s worse than the quote above makes it seem though. In St Thomas’ reply to objection 1 in that same article, he writes this rather alarming corollary of his Augustinian position, “God loves all men and all creatures, inasmuch as He wishes them all some good; but he does not wish every good to them all. So far, therefore, as he does not wish this particular good—namely, eternal life—he is said to hate or reprobate them.”

I don’t see any qualitative difference between this Augustinian/Thomistic position and the Calvinist “double-predestination” teaching. Plainly, God is predestining some to life and some to perdition. The only way this would be possible is if God loved some more than others (Garrigou-Lagrange).

 

[Magnanimity]

It seems unfair that on our own we can go to hell, but not to heaven, as without grace we can not do anything meritorious.

This is a very astute observation and entirely correct, imo. And more to the point, a consistent and plain teaching of the NT is that God’s love and grace extends to all. But if God loves all, how can some end up in Hell? I think St Thomas Aquinas hints at an answer—God loves some more than he loves others—he does not love them all equally. I believe this is an inescapable conclusion of the Augustinian teaching on Hell.

 

[Vico]

…

Because there is not a positive will to damnation, is what makes it different. It is not logically possible to force a person to love, for love by definition, is a free gift.

St. Thomas Aquinas does show his view supporting universal salvific will of God and the free will of the individual.

Reply to Objection 1. The words of the Apostle, “God will have all men to be saved,” etc. can be understood in three ways.

• First, by a restricted application, in which case they would mean, as Augustine says (De praed. sanct. i, 8: Enchiridion 103), “God wills all men to be saved that are saved, not because there is no man whom He does not wish saved, but because there is no man saved whose salvation He does not will.”
• Secondly, they can be understood as applying to every class of individuals, not to every individual of each class; in which case they mean that God wills some men of every class and condition to be saved, males and females, Jews and Gentiles, great and small, but not all of every condition.
• Thirdly, according to Damascene (De Fide Orth. ii, 29), they are understood of the antecedent will of God; not of the consequent will. This distinction must not be taken as applying to the divine will itself, in which there is nothing antecedent nor consequent, but to the things willed.

To understand this we must consider that everything, in so far as it is good, is willed by God. A thing taken in its primary sense, and absolutely considered, may be good or evil, and yet when some additional circumstances are taken into account, by a consequent consideration may be changed into the contrary. Thus that a man should live is good; and that a man should be killed is evil, absolutely considered. But if in a particular case we add that a man is a murderer or dangerous to society, to kill him is a good; that he live is an evil. Hence it may be said of a just judge, that antecedently he wills all men to live; but consequently wills the murderer to be hanged. In the same way God antecedently wills all men to be saved, but consequently wills some to be damned, as His justice exacts. Nor do we will simply, what we will antecedently, but rather we will it in a qualified manner; for the will is directed to things as they are in themselves, and in themselves they exist under particular qualifications. Hence we will a thing simply inasmuch as we will it when all particular circumstances are considered; and this is what is meant by willing consequently. Thus it may be said that a just judge wills simply the hanging of a murderer, but in a qualified manner he would will him to live, to wit, inasmuch as he is a man. Such a qualified will may be called a willingness rather than an absolute will. Thus it is clear that whatever God simply wills takes place; although what He wills antecedently may not take place.

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1019.htm#article6

 

[Magnanimity]

Because there is not a positive will to damnation, is what makes it different.

I understand the distinction you’re trying to draw out, but it manifestly appears to be a distinction that makes no difference. In his reply to objection 1, St Thomas was answering “It seems that God reprobates no man. For nobody reprobates what he loves. But God loves every man…” This is the plain objection that we all bring to this problem of predestining souls for Hell. St Thomas’ simple answer? God does not will the particular good of eternal life to all…

It is not logically possible to force a person to love, for love by definition, is a free gift.

It would seem that upon a thorough examination of how human wills are oriented toward the good (Aristotle/St Thomas), what is not logically possible is that, given a certain state of being (e.g., Hell), a human would indefinitely will that which is other than the good. As Aristotle notes (and St Thomas affirms), “Every art and every inquiry, and similarly every action and pursuit, is thought to aim at some good; and for this reason the good has rightly been declared to be that at which all things aim.” -Nicomachean Ethics, opening line.

Yet, an infernalist would have us believe that it is logically and actually possible for a human to persistently, unendingly orient his will toward that which isn’t good (in Hell).