Go to Hell - Stay there forever

[Rabbi]

the Jewish concept of gilgulim is very different than the Hindu samsara. Firstly, a soul only goes through reincarnation if they have some “unfinished business,” meaning, they wronged a person and need to correct that mistake. Sins against G-d are purified in Gehenna (the Jewish hell), but Gehenna isn’t a place of fire and brimstone, it is one of deep contemplation (this lasts for 11 months), and while hell is temporary, heaven isn’t. However, there are many opinions in Judaism, some don’t believe in heaven, others don’t believe in reincarnation, and some don’t believe both.

 

[Shasta-Rose]

The mills of God grind slowly, though they grind exceeding small.
Yet with patience He stands waiting. With exactness grinds He all.

 

[Magnanimity]

concupiscence

Ok… I think I follow what you’re getting at with those lengthy 16th century quotes. Concupiscense has spread to all and this is evidenced by the fact that all have sinned (Rom 5:12). I don’t follow St Augustine in his belief that the guilt for the original couple’s sin is inherited by Adam and Eve’s descendants. But I admitted above that which is obvious to us all who are paying attention—a universal propensity towards “missing the mark.” Concupiscence is real. Granted.

But it doesn’t exist in a vacuum. It is a consequence of the fallen world in which we live. We do not reason flawlessly-we err often enough. We do not remember flawlessly. We do not always seek goods which are not in some way tainted (less good than they could be). All of our cognitive activities are subject to flaws. So, I ask again, how would this reality increase the culpability of the race? It seems pretty plainly to do just the opposite.

Put another way, I could be blamed for not believing a local priest teaching me about the gospel (to give an example) if my mind apprehended truth flawlessly, with no admixture of past prejudices, emotional responses, mistaken preconceived notions I already had about God, etc, etc…

But, as I said above,

We are not blank slates all on a level moral playing field at all times…We are, all of us, amalgamations of complicated psychologies and propensities and biases and knowledge. None of us stands in a simple relation to the good, the true or the beautiful.

We are in process. We grow in wisdom and knowledge and judgment and morality. God knows this about us, and he knows the reality of the fallen world and the constituent parts of it (us). So, the God who IS love shows mercy.

“And in response, they went away one by one, beginning with the elders. So he was left alone with the woman before him. Then Jesus straightened up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” She replied, “No one, sir.” Then Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you. Go, and sin no more.”” -John 8

 

[Magnanimity]

St Thomas answers that “all things are subject to divine providence,” ST 1, Q 22, A 2.

St Thomas further answers that “Thus, as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it likewise is part of that providence to permit some to fall away from that end; this is called reprobation… Hence reprobation implies not only foreknowledge, but also something more, as does providence, as was said above [I:22:1]. Therefore, as predestination includes the will to confer grace and glory; so also reprobation includes the will to permit a person to fall into sin, and to impose the punishment of damnation on account of that sin.” -ST 1, Q 23, A 3.

Interesting. So it’s not a mere foreknowledge that forms the basis for the divine will acting in contrary ways towards two separate humans. “Something more” is required. For one individual, God wills to confer grace and glory. For the other individual, God wills to permit the person to fall into sin and imposes damnation as a consequence of his will to permit the one to fall into sin.

So far, the question I asked continues to go unanswered. So, I’ll ask again, as it really is the crux of the matter:

If St Thomas asserts that God does not will the good of eternal life to all, then on the basis of what would he not will it?

For some, he wills grace and glory. For others, he wills to permit them to fall away into sin leading to damnation. But in both cases, he wills it—“all things are subject to divine providence,” as St Thomas says.

So on the basis of what does he not will grace and glory to all? We all sin. But though all of us sin, he does not will us all to fall away into sin. To some, he gives the grace needed to be freed from sin. And that grace is not extended to all sinners because…???

 

[Latin]

And the individual is the partial cause (cooperation) of that by assenting.

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott.

a) Fallen man cannot redeem himself. (De fide.)

b) Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification. (De fide.)

c) The three Divine or Theological Virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity are infused with Sanctifying grace. (De fide)

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a) As you see Vico, our salvation 100 % depends on God to save us.

COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8
. . . None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.

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b) We are 100 % dependent on God to keep us saved, by His special gift of efficacious grace the gift of Perseverance, without this gift THERE IS NO SALVATION.
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THE MYSTERY OF PREDESTINATION by John Salza
He grants the efficacious grace of Perseverance only to His elect.

Without God’s gift of efficacious grace of Perseverance whatever the rest of the human race does CAN NOT be saved because they cannot persevere . – (De fide)

Without exception, those who are not receive God’s special efficacious grace of His gift of Perseverance end up in hell but their blood is in God’s hands, there is no other way.

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c) This is the way God prepares/ causes us to say YES to His gift of salvation.

CCCS 1990-1991; "Justification is God’s free gift which detaches man from enslavement to sin and reconciles him to God.

Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
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CCCS 1996-1998; Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.

This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.”

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We are not puppets because with His efficacious graces God enlightens our minds end we every time, without any force, freely choose to cooperate with His efficacious graces and we all say YES to God’s call to heaven and with His gift of perseverance God keeps us saved and takes us up to heaven.
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God bless

 

[Vico]

…
So, I ask again, how would this reality increase the culpability of the race? It seems pretty plainly to do just the opposite. …

As posted, because of received grace, our culpability is increased, because we are then more capable, being strengthened, Trent:

"But this holy synod confesses and is sensible, that in the baptized there remains concupiscence, or an incentive (to sin); which, whereas it is left for our exercise, cannot injure those who consent not, but resist manfully by the grace of Jesus Christ; yea, he who shall have striven lawfully shall be crowned.

 

[Vico]

…

Notwithstanding, the individual is the partial cause (cooperation) of that by assenting. Just as you read before from Catholic Encylopedia:

“a) At least in the order of execution in time ( in ordine executionis ) the meritorious works of the predestined are the partial cause of their eternal happiness”

 

[Vico]

… So on the basis of what does he not will grace and glory to all? …

S.T. > I, II, Question 79. The external causes of sin > A4. Whether blindness and hardness of heart are directed to the salvation of those who are blinded and hardened?

Reply to Objection 1. Every evil that God does, or permits to be done, is directed to some good; yet not always to the good of those in whom the evil is, but sometimes to the good of others, or of the whole universe: thus He directs the sin of tyrants to the good of the martyrs, and the punishment of the lost to the glory of His justice.

Free will consent is logically necessary for the Beatific Vision – to be confirmed in a charitable state – because love is only given freely. So there is a logical necessity to permit damnation of some in order to have glory of others.

 

[Erundil]

Every evil that God does, or permits to be done, is directed to some good

Heresy alert!! GOD WOULD NEVER DO ANY EVIL! Forgive me, I know it’s probably small error in phrase and you didn’t meant it literally – but it just sound scary.
“God is light; in him there is no darkness at all” [1 John 5]

But I agree with all you said at the end – the damnation may follow our personal choice (which is made through our entire life).

 

[Vico]

Vico:

Every evil that God does, or permits to be done, is directed to some good

Heresy alert!! GOD WOULD NEVER DO ANY EVIL! Forgive me, I know it’s probably small error in phrase and you didn’t meant it literally – but it just sound scary.
“God is light; in him there is no darkness at all” [1 John 5]

But I agree with all you said at the end – the damnation may follow our personal choice (which is made through our entire life).

There are different senses of evil: “malum naturæ” (metaphysical evil), " culpæ" (moral), and " paenæ " (physical, the retributive consequence of " malum culpæ ").

God does evil in the sense of Amos 3: 6

Does the ram’s horn sound in a city
without the people becoming frightened?
Does disaster befall a city
unless the Lord has caused it?

and Isaiah 45: 7

I form the light, and create the darkness,
I make weal and create woe;
I, the Lord, do all these things.

 

[Erundil]

Yeah, it’s like you’ve said earlier: He permits. I was just pointing out that phrase “evil that God does” could be little bit confusing. Sorry for nitpicking my friend Neither he wanted us to die in accidents/do evil horrible things, nor to have angels rebelling against Him. He allow this to happen – as also you mentioned before – for greater good. I can only say His respect for our (and angelic beings) free will is beyond understanding.

PS praying for you, God bless you

 

[Magnanimity]

I don’t follow what you’re trying to say here. By “culpable” I simply mean “blameworthy.” I was making what I thought to be a simple point regarding how the fallenness of the world has affected everything for the worse–to include our wills, our minds, our hearts, all our internal faculties and even our bodies themselves. That fallenness makes us more deserving of pity and mercy, not judgment and condemnation, than would be the case if we were not subject to a fallen world. I’m not clear how you think you’re countering this point I’ve made…

 

[Magnanimity]

Reply to Objection 1. Every evil that God does, or permits to be done, is directed to some good; yet not always to the good of those in whom the evil is, but sometimes to the good of others, or of the whole universe: thus He directs the sin of tyrants to the good of the martyrs, and the punishment of the lost to the glory of His justice.

YES!! Absolutely, this. @Vico, you are so close to agreeing with me and @Latin! Or, maybe it’s one of those “so close, yet so far away” situations. You didn’t quite answer my challenge, but it’s ok. (I think it’s an unanswerable challenge without ending up somewhere bizarre like in Garrigou-Lagrange land.)

All of God’s acts are perfectly oriented to some good, even if the good of the specific act is not my good (but it is to the good of another). Or, in some cases, the act(s) are oriented toward the good of the whole universe. That, is precisely what Latin I are harping on, over and over again, within this thread. God is ever seeking the good of the whole universe. And what is the good of the whole universe? What is everything tending towards? It is the new heavens and the new earth–it is the restoration of all things (apokatastasis panton–Acts 3:21) to a state in which there is no more death, no more fallen world, no more curse, but God will be all in all (1 Cor. 15:20-28).

The problem is that Augustinian, western Catholicism believing that a neverending persistent state of torment and suffering of divine image-bearers is somehow compatible with a “greater good.” But, this is the very thing that hasn’t been argued for. How could two tracks, extending neverendingly into the future (heaven and hell) sensibly fit with a greater good? What is “greater” about that concept?

In fact, I would argue that it’s “lesser” than this current fallen world. At least here, when the suffering and torment of life become overwhelming to a person, he can escape it. Are you aware that the World Health Organization keeps annual statistics of global suicides that are reported to it? Do you know what the numbers are? They’re astronomical. They’re outrageous. The figure is around 800,000 annually–these are the “successful” suicides, not the attempts (the attempts are in the several millions). And this figure only includes the data that is actually reported to the WHO. Who knows how high the actual figure is?

And, what would the infernalist have us believe? The infernalist would say to us, well yes, the greater good here is that the terrible suffering and torment that cause the person to commit suicide is what is awaiting him in the afterlife–only there, he won’t be able to escape that suffering and torment. He’ll experience it forever… I just want to say to the infernalist, do you even hear yourself right now? Have you thought through the ramifications of this belief-system?!

 

[Magnanimity]

Clearly, to save a divine image bearer (a human) is a greater good than allow him to suffer everlastingly. More to the point, what greater good is served by allowing the never-ending suffering of all these creatures whom He “loves?” We humans here on Earth (being evil) would never tolerate such a thing–we would never permit ourselves to unendingly torment and cause the suffering of another human. And yet, infernalists want the world to believe that the wrathful, vengeful god who IS love–he will do that very thing. And that is all a part of the “greater good” to which his providence is working.

There is more to say about this concept of libertarian free will that seems to be operative here. It is mistaken. To be free as a human is not to do and think whatever I want, whenever I want. To be free as a human is to properly orient one’s will toward that which it was made for. Human wills are ever tended toward some good, (or, the Good) as has been pointed out above. So, in Hell, towards what is the human will oriented? What is the good object of the will in a place of inescapable perdition?

 

[Vico]

Yeah, it’s like you’ve said earlier: He permits. I was just pointing out that phrase “evil that God does” could be little bit confusing. Sorry for nitpicking my friend Neither he wanted us to die in accidents/do evil horrible things, nor to have angels rebelling against Him. He allow this to happen – as also you mentioned before – for greater good. I can only say His respect for our (and angelic beings) free will is beyond understanding.

PS praying for you, God bless you

The has to be respect for free will, without which there can be no love, and without love no heaven.

1 Cor 2:9

“no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him.”

Rom 8:28

“We know that in everything God works for good for those who love him.”

Catechism of the Catholic Church

311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. …

 

[Vico]

Clearly, to save a divine image bearer (a human) is a greater good than allow him to suffer everlastingly. More to the point, what greater good is served by allowing the never-ending suffering of all these creatures whom He “loves?” …
So, in Hell, towards what is the human will oriented? What is the good object of the will in a place of inescapable perdition?

See the post i made to Erundil Go to Hell - Stay there forever - #577 by Vico

The will is oriented towards malice rather than love.

Matt 25

41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

John 8

44 You belong to your father the devil and you willingly carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks in character, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe me.

 

[AlruwhAlquds]

St. Thomas Aquinas wrote about Natural Law and morality. Native tribes who are isolated seem to have this moral code – for example they know stealing is wrong, or killing for no reason is wrong without ever knowing Christ/God. I remember learning that that the Catechism states it is not your fault if you do not know and are able to still receive graces from the Holy Spirit if this is the case.

 

[AlruwhAlquds]

Sorry you are having negative thoughts, there is always a positive side though.
I can understand your thoughts and questions here. Yes, God is much greater than us. And when it’s a negative day I can imagine thinking “what’s the point?” Why create us, why all this? I get it. What helps me, is realizing that teaching that says He allows us free will. He just wants us to love Him. I too wonder, it seems unfair that God would create humans and souls and choose them to be “bad” (e.g Judas). There are times I wonder if Judas chose to do “good” and not sell Jesus out would it matter? But I believe even Judas had free will. I think God can see the choices we have in front of us and what path we are likely to take. And yes I think it hurts him.

I’m a parent and I think of my relationship with my children. As much as I want them to always want me, it’s going to change when they are teenagers and adults, they will break away, they will explore. I can only ground them in faith and love as a child but ultimately they will choose their own path. At 18 they can very well say, they are tired of us and be distant for sometime and return and etc. At 35 they can steer off any Catholic path we set them on as children and fall away. And a as adults, how much can an adult parent do? At some point it becomes their choice to be away. My children (being small) don’t realize how much much my husband and I love them and that I would die for them. I think it of sort of the same way with God and us, except He is much more aware of us than a human parent and child relationship. God had to constantly remind the Israelites to return to him especially after Moses and Joshua. In the Bible God continuously tried to lead them back to Him and still loves them. He sent Judges, he sent King David, he sent Christ and so on. God was and is always wanting us to choose Him. He tries and calls us.

Turning away from God is a choice of free will from temptation. But I feel like God gives us a lot of graces and chances. We have Mother Mary pleading our cause, we have loving parents and priests and etc. who pray for fallen away folks. Those things help us during our soul’s time of need.

Your question of ,“why do people go to hell?” makes me think of those who truly hate love and compassion and who never bothered to accept God or as for forgiveness. Those who are filled with selfishness at the expense of torture and murder. I can see corrupt world leaders and dictators, people who abused their power: lead people astray etc etc. I can see political leaders who pass Godless laws. I can see Satanic groups, serial killers, sex traffickers and such preparing their way to eternal fires.

As far as your question, “having one mortal unforgiven sin and going to hell after living a moral life.” We can never know the state of anyone’s soul. I believe we face a judgement and I believe our Lord is merciful. If you have one moral sin, just repent it. In the long run accepting Him and saying you are sorry is such a small price to ultimate Love.

 

[Latin]

The has to be respect for free will, without which there can be no love, and without love no heaven.

CCCS 1990-1991; … Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness.
In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
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The three Divine or Theological Virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity are infused with Sanctifying grace. (De fide)
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1 Cor.4:7; For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?

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We all have unlimited free will to love, the quantity of love in us is determined by God with the amount of love/ charity He infused into us.
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As you see Viko, God determined the quantity of love/ charity He has infused into us.

It makes no difference how much free will we have, we cannot love more than the love God infused into us. – So, God decided heaven for us, with the quantity of love/ charity Hi infused into us.

The will is oriented towards malice rather than love.

308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.

St. Thomas also teaches that God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3:

Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.

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If God orients our wills towards malice rather than love, then our wills oriented towards malice.

If God orients our wills towards love rather than malice, then our wills oriented towards love.
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God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes, God alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. – And we always cooperate/ work together with God, we are in God and God is in us, God’s will is immutable.
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298 Since God could create everything out of nothing, he can also, through the Holy Spirit, give spiritual life to sinners by creating a pure heart in them. 148
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God bless

 

[Vico]

…

God does give us grace and wills that we may choose sin or charity with the help of grace (in either case).

Catechism

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.