Go to Hell - Stay there forever

[Magnanimity]

The will is oriented towards malice rather than love.

Malice is not an object and it is not an end. It is therefore not a thing toward which a will can incline as its end. People here on earth only behave maliciously when there is some further good beyond the malicious act toward which they are inclined, or which they are trying to obtain. To behave maliciously is to use a strategy, a twisted and selfish strategy, but a strategy nonetheless. The only possible exception to this truth are psychopaths, or other humans whose minds do not function properly. Those individuals are clearly in need of healing. But for the overwhelming majority of the rest of us, malice is not an end. It is a means to some further end beyond it. You could not philosophically demonstrate that malice is an end in itself. Nor could you demonstrate that it is an object to be obtained. Such claims are incoherent.

We have already been over this territory regarding the human inclination toward the good. As Aristotle said and in his ethics, and to which Saint Thomas Aquinas gives his assent, actions and pursuits and inquiries are aimed at some good. The good, the ancients affirmed, is that towards which all things aim.

So again, the question still stands. What is the good toward which a human will unendingly tends in a place like hell?

There are about 1000 objections to the concept of a state of unending suffering and torment (hell). This just happens to be one of the most serious objections for the infernalist. So you don’t get to sidestep it. And your answer has to adequately satisfy the question itself.

It has been granted that the good is the proper object of a human will. Here in this fallen world we use various strategies which are less than the best, they miss the mark, to obtain the good. And sometimes the good that we are inclined toward is mixed together with some things that make it a disordered good. But none of this changes the fact that human wills are oriented toward the good as their proper end.

As Saint Augustine said, evil is a privation of the good. It is not a thing. It is not an object.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

The will is oriented towards malice rather than love.

… Malice is not an object and it is not an end…

The will is inclined to the rational good as a proper object. But to evil when “the will is moved of its own accord” choosing evil knowingly. St. Thomas Aquinas, S.T. I, II, Q78, A3. Also in S.T. I, II, Q78, A4:

Reply to Objection 3. It is one thing to sin while choosing, and another to sin through choosing. For he that sins through passion, sins while choosing, but not through choosing, because his choosing is not for him the first principle of his sin; for he is induced through the passion, to choose what he would not choose, were it not for the passion. On the other hand, he that sins through certain malice, chooses evil of his own accord, in the way already explained (Articles 2 and 3), so that his choosing, of which he has full control, is the principle of his sin: and for this reason he is said to sin “through” choosing.

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2078.htm

malice, noun:

• the intention or desire to do evil; ill will

malice, uncountable noun:

• behavior that is intended to harm people or their reputations, or cause them embarrassment and upset.

 

[Latin]

God does give us grace and wills that we may choose sin or charity with the help of grace (in either case).

I believe your above statement is correct.

There are hundreds of theories but only ONE teaching is true/ correct as follows.
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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator. God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes : "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."171
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There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will. ( De fide. )
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There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will. ( De fide. )

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311 For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.177
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324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
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298 Since God could create everything out of nothing, he can also, through the Holy Spirit, give spiritual life to sinners by creating a pure heart in them. 148
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321 Divine providence consists of the dispositions by which God guides all his creatures with wisdom and love to their ultimate end.

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Our trust must be in God, He guides all his creatures with wisdom and love to their ultimate end.

There are hundreds theories which trying to hide and smokescreen the above one true teaching.

God bless

 

[Vico]

…

It is good the the Trinity grants grace to the penitent as described in Psalm 51 “A Contrite Sinner’s Prayer for Pardon” quoted by Catechism 298 “creating a pure heart in them”.

And it is certainly true that the Trinity does guide all his creatures, even those that end in damnation – “the state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed” (CCC 1033).

 

[Magnanimity]

As Saint Augustine said, evil is a privation of the good. It is not a thing. It is not an object.

You aren’t really addressing my arguments, so I’m forced to just reiterate. Evil is not a thing, so it cannot be an object of the will. Nor is malice. Every evil act still has some admixture of goods within it (or beyond it, as the goal).

 

[Vico]

Magnanimity:

As Saint Augustine said, evil is a privation of the good. It is not a thing. It is not an object.

You aren’t really addressing my arguments, so I’m forced to just reiterate. Evil is not a thing, so it cannot be an object of the will. Nor is malice. Every evil act still has some admixture of goods within it (or beyond it, as the goal).

Evil can be intended for the sake of avoiding another evil, or obtaining another good (example S.T. I, II Q78, A1: “even as a lustful man would wish to enjoy a pleasure without offending God; but with the two set before him to choose from, he prefers sinning and thereby incurring God’s anger, to being deprived of the pleasure.” )The human act, per St. Thomas Aquinas, receives its species from its object, so for the human will, the proper object is the intelligible good (the broad and universal meaning) and this is essential. The object has the nature (ratio) of a proximate end. In De Malo, Aquinas states that every agent in acting intends an end, sometimes the action itself, sometimes a particular thing produced by the action.

With the fallen angels, the end was “to have final beatitude of his own power, whereas this is proper to God alone”.

De malo, q. 2, a. 3, ad: “acts take their species from their object, and so we name sins by exterior acts as the sins are related to them as the sins’ objects”.

Modern Catholic Dictionary, malice:

The evil of a conscious and deliberate transgression of the law of God. It is a contempt of the divine Author of the law, and an implicit denial of reverence toward God, who, as Creator, has a right to demand obedience of his creatures. It is the basic evil of sin.

De malo, q. 2, a. 3, ad: “acts take their species from their object, and so we name sins by exterior acts as the sins are related to them as the sins’ objects”.

 

[Dourbest]

But what if life is cut short before one may repent i.e. dies on the way to confession w/ imperfect contrition.

 

[Latin]

…

1) The Mystery of Predestination by John Salza. Page 84.

St. Thomas properly explains the chain of causality:

“It is to be observed that where there are several agents in order, the second always acts in virtue of the first: for the agent moves the second to act.

And thus all agents act in virtue of God Himself: and therefore He is the cause of action in every agent. ST, Pt I, Q 105, Art 5.

Because God is the cause of action in every agent, even man’s free will determination to do good comes from God.”
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2) There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will. ( De fide. )
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3) CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES , and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
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4) 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator. God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes : "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."171
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5) St. Thomas teaches that God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3:

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THE MYSTERY OF PREDESTINATION John Salza .

6) “When God wills a person to perform a salutary act (e.g., prayer, good works), He grants him the means (an efficacious grace ) that infallibly produces the end ( the act willed by God ).

With efficacious grace , man is able to resist the grace but does not , because the grace causes him to freely choose the good.

If God wills to permit a person to resist His grace, He grants him a sufficient, and not an efficacious, grace.

The distinctions between these graces reveal that God is responsible for man’s salvation.”

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7) For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the Divine will or power is called fate.
But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God.
Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.

“The Divine will is cause of all things that happens, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.

The same is true for events in our lives. Relative to us they often appear to be by chance.
But relative to God, who directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.

Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.”
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)

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I numbered the above teachings, Please Vico answer one by one.
Do you agree with the above teachings, if you agree, just write agree, explanation is not necessary?
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If you don’t agree please describe why not, WITH YOUR OWN WORDS PLEASE.

Please NO quotes, please use only your own words.
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God bless

 

[Vico]

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The merit of good works is attributed first to the grace of God, then to the collaboration of the faithful, for which an increase of grace is merited. Those that finish life in the state of grace receive a recompense for it. (See Catechism 2010 and Rom. 2:6–11, Council of Trent Canons 26 and 32.)

 

[Elf01]

But what if life is cut short before one may repent i.e. dies on the way to confession w/ imperfect contrition.

My personal opinion is that God would give the person a chance to confess to him in the moments before their death or will prevent them from dying.

We know God desires all to be saved. I think anyone who gives him anything at all to work with will be given every chance.

 

[TheLittleLady]

We trust that God is far more merciful and far more powerful than we can even imagine. However we do not let that lull us into indifference “Meh, I sinned but God is merciful so I can sleep in on Saturday instead of going to Confession”.

 

[oliver109]

I think your view is a very sensible one and I have always hoped that it is the case, the church should teach it more as so often one hears especially after the parable of the foolish virgins is read that if one happens to not be ready on their last day then they have no more chances. It seems a bit unfair to me.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

the church should teach it more

No, she shouldn’t.

What Elf01 related was a hope. It’s a view that I also hope for, but it has not been revealed, so teaching it would be folly. As TheLittleLady said, focusing on that potential would lead people to be way too relaxed about sin.

Since we are dealing with eternity here, it is far better to be vigilant.

 

[Magnanimity]

even as a lustful man would wish to enjoy a pleasure

Yes Vico, this illustrates my own point. In the example you give, there is always some good as the goal. The pleasure he derives from lust is a goal in the act. It is the the good in this instance. Human males are oriented toward the beauty of human females and to pursue that beauty as a natural good (end). All you have provided here is an example of what I just said to you above:

Every evil act still has some admixture of goods within it (or beyond it, as the goal).

In De Malo , Aquinas states that every agent in acting intends an end, sometimes the action itself, sometimes a particular thing produced by the action.

Yes, Vico, I know this! This is precisely what I just said to you above. Aquinas is following Aristotle in this, and I agree with them. I am trying to get you to acknowledge these truths about the human will and then incorporate them into some sort of a defense of a state of neverending, conscious torment and suffering (Hell) of rational creatures whose wills are oriented towards the good. The two things don’t go together. It’s just so much of an exercise in trying to fit the square object into the circular hole. I’m pretty confident that it won’t work, but I continue to invite you to try.

With the fallen angels, the end was “to have final beatitude of his own power, whereas this is proper to God alone”.

Oh, look at that! An evil act with a good end!! Those who speculate about the fall of the angels normally couch the angelic sin in terms of the deadly sins of pride and envy. Let’s consider them both.

It seems there is no such thing as pride for pride’s sake. In an act of pride that is disordered, I want others to see and acknowledge my high stature, my accomplishments or the estate to which I’ve risen. I want them to acknowledge my own intrinsic glory. Sinful pride is still directed towards “the other” (I want the other to see the level of my glory as I myself see it.) “Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.” - Paradise Lost

There is certainly no such thing as envy for envy’s sake. With envy, there is always an object desired, which is currently possessed by another.

In the very quote you have, the angels are seeking goods!! Beatitude is a good. Power is a good. The sin, the disorder, consists in attempting to take into oneself that which isn’t proper to you (e.g., divine beatitude).

So, Vico you and I are like the dog chasing its own tail now, round and round we go in the same circle. It’s alright. I’m earnestly wanting you to acknowledge human will for what it is (which you seem to have done) and then answer my question about how that fits with a vision of Hell (which you certainly have not done).

I reiterate my challenge:

It has been granted that the good is the proper object of a human will. What is the good toward which a human will unendingly tends in a place like hell?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Paradise Lost

Milton’s Paradise Lost is as Christian as the Odyssey. Milton’s devil has absolutely no connection to the real devil.

 

[Magnanimity]

Ok. I’m not an apologist for Milton. I don’t care what anyone’s opinion of him is.
It is clear from my posts that what I’m seeking is the compatibility of (1) human wills and (2) Hell. That’s all. I don’t see how the two are in any way compatible.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

We’ve been over it repeatedly, so at this point I don’t see how repeating it will help you any more than the previous times. But here goes:

A person chooses for or against God their entire lives. The severity of that choice is relative to their knowledge of God. The more a person knows God, the more harmful their sins are to their relationship with Him.

At death, the sum choices of a person’s life are made known, and they are either saved or they are damned. If they are saved, it is because they embraced God’s mercy. If they are damned it is because they reject God’s mercy. Usually, this rejection is present as being one of three modes:

1. I will not serve you
2. My sins are too great for even you to forgive.
3. You are not what I choose to worship

For #1, the sinful soul will not humble themselves to admit their sinfulness or acknowledge that God is greater than them. They would rather suffer the pains of Hell than give up their “power”.

For #2, the sinful soul doesn’t believe God can forgive them, and so they cannot forgive themselves, and so they flee from God. They run from Him into the abyss because they aren’t willing to be forgiven, or because they reject the reality that God can forgive anything.

For #3, the sinful soul will not worship God. They have created a false god, and they reject the real God in favor of their lesser deity. As with group 1, they enter Hell of their own volition because they will not relinquish their sinful desires.

God allows them to make this choice, and there is no new influx of information that could change it, because on departing from God they are cut off from the source of all Goodness and knowledge. They see everything in their lives and choose, and that choice is definitive.

 

[oliver109]

You believe that we are admitted to Heaven or Hell based on ones overall choices in life? that is not what is taught by the majority of Catholics where one generally believes that if you die immediately after committing a mortal sin one goes straight to Hell even if their life choices were generally good. There seems to be a very fine line where one cannot either depend on Gods mercy too much or feel that Gods mercy is not available.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

That one choice is factored into judgment, and is enough in itself to cut yourself off from God’s mercy.

I presented it as a sort of equation, which isn’t accurate, but is the only way I really know how to describe it. It’s not “do enough good things to outweigh the bad things.” It’s “Have you lived your life in a way that leads you towards or away from God.”

That one mortal sin is a definitive rejection of God, and is enough to shift the disposition of your soul to reject God.

There is also a real aspect of God’s judgment. He weighs all the factors of our lives and knows our hearts perfectly. We are all due judgment and punishment for our sins, but His mercy saves us from the eternal consequences. If we kill His grace in our souls through mortal sin, or enough venial sinning, then we won’t be able to receive His mercy.

 

[oliver109]

What about the whole “I forgive 77x77 times” why would God cut someone off after say committing 180 mortal sins?