Go to Hell - Stay there forever

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ProdglArchitect said:
first, it rejects the absolute decree and assumes a hypothetical predestination to glory; secondly, it does not reverse the succession of grace and glory in the two orders of eternal intention and of execution in time, but makes glory depend on merit in eternity as well as in the order of time.
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THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect, rejects the hypothetical predestination. – There is no hypothetical predestination in Catholic Soteriology, please ProdglArchitect consult with your priest in this matter.

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Another excerpt from the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA maybe more helpful.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Predestination of the elect.
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Considering that not all men reach their supernatural end in heaven, but that many are eternally lost, there MUST EXIST a twofold predestination:

(a) one to heaven.

(b) one to the pains of hell.

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However, according to present usages to which we shall adhere in the course of the article, it is better to call the latter decree the Divine reprobation so that the term predestination is reserved for the Divine decree of the happiness of the elect.

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The COUNTERPART of the predestination of the good is the decree the Divine reprobation.

Merely implies the absolute will not to grant the bliss of heaven, though not positively predestined to hell, yet they are absolutely predestined not to go to heaven (cf. above, I, B).

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(Another part of the article addresses the decree the Divine reprobation:)

Whatever view one may take regarding the internal probability of negative reprobation, it CANNOT be harmonized with the DOGMATICALLY certain UNIVERSALITY and sincerity of God’s salvific will.
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How can that will to save be called serious and sincere which has DECREED from all eternity the metaphysical impossibility of salvation?
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He who has been reprobated negatively, may exhaust all his efforts to attain salvation: it avail’s him NOTHING.
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For the absolute predestination of the blessed is at the same time the ABSOLUTE will of God NOT TO ELECT a priori the rest of mankind (Suarez), or which comes to the same, to EXCLUDE them from heaven (Gonet), in other words, NOT to save them.

Moreover, in order to realize infallibly his decree, God is compelled to frustrate the eternal welfare of all excluded a priori from heaven, and to TAKE CARE that they die in their sins.

Lessius rightly says that it would be INDIFFERENT to him whether he was numbered among those reprobated positively or negatively; for, in either case, his eternal damnation would be CERTAIN. End quote.


I hope the above excerpt more helpful. - There is NO hypothetical predestination to glory.

There is only an absolute and unconditional decree of predestination to heaven by solely God’s decision and all chosen say yes to God’s call to heaven freely without any force.

I believe, God predestined everyone to heaven with an Absolute Decree. - God’s duty of care and His Justice Demands it.
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God bless
 
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About a run for the money. If you think Judaism and Christianity are based off that religion, then why are you Catholic? Unless I am mistaken.
 
Sure. I’ll summarize. In the past, people sacrificed children to the pagan god Moloch, in the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem. If you’ve ever been there, you’ve been in hell. Some people don’t like the concept of hell or heaven. They say that when we tell our children that grandpa went to heaven, we’re really trying to tell them he’s gone. Forever. They say that heaven is for children. That these were merely stories told for the capacity of primates. Rambam, for one, kind of agreed with them. He didn’t even believe in the soul. He believed in the ‘active intellect,’ the only thing that could possibly survive biological death. Still, this valley would take on abstract forms in the coming centuries as Gehenna. A place for the damned. However, there were many ideas as to what Gehenna actually is, as well as its size. Sotah 22a, in the Babylonian Talmud, says that Gehenna was created by G-d very deep in the earth (though there are many opinions as to when it happened, and this is alright, because Judaism allows for contradiction). Some other sources think that the fires of Gehenna never extinguish, and that sinners are aglow with them.
 
You’ve got to remember something. Even though we believe in heaven, and things like hell, it doesn’t mean the rabbis did. We find lots of talk of demons in the Talmud, but if you look in Gemara, it says it’s nothing more than your own shadow. In other words, these aggadot (non-legal portions of the Talmud) were nothing more than moral messages. It’s the same with angels. How can a being like that exist? Even in a vision, G-d can’t interact with your neurons to create such a thing. Only the mystics believe in such things, and Rambam called them “fools.” I, for one, am somewhat of a mystic - I believe in gilgulim, or the transmigration of souls. Regardless, many scholars have since readjusted their view of Rambam. Perhaps he didn’t mean what he wrote? Rambam wrote some harsh stuff. He said that G-d might have not even created the world, and that if He did, He surely doesn’t care for your prayers, and nor can He get angry, or be pleased, or be happy. These are all ‘positive attributes,’ and G-d is not great, He doesn’t deserve them!

Well, we’ll likely never know for sure if Rambam thought this way, it’s really besides the point.

But let’s say Gehenna does exist. R. Yohanan ben Zakkai, the preserver of Judaism, said we all go to hell. There is no escaping it. This is because people are more likely to sin than do good, and hence, it would have been better had they never been born to begin with.

However, there is a way out of Gehenna. One needs to be purified; many authorities taught that the purification happened on the onset of arriving, but that it takes at most, 11 months to complete. The most wicked souls are merely obliterated. Some said this purification, though, is only reserved for those who never sinned, but rather, had caused others to sin.

However, we know that in the World to Come, or the Messianic Age, souls will rise, including the souls of sinners, though they will be shameful for the lives they have previously led, as was adopted in the prophet, Daniel (Daniel 12:2). However, those souls will not return to hell, for G-d will purify them on earth. Again, Rambam believed in the World to Come, but there is much debate if he took resurrection seriously.

So now you see that a lot of this stuff is just myths. They’re what we Jews call midrashim. Interpretation. You can believe in hell if you’d like, you can believe in an after life if it makes you feel good. One thing is sure, when was the last time you received a postcard from heaven? So who knows what’s out there. I think our best bet is to just trust in G-d. Obviously, even Rambam thought He cared enough to show us mercy via creation and Torah. So there’s hope after all.
 
One last thing, Rambam might have been harsh, but in his view, he was perfectly logical.
 
Rabbi said:
About a run for the money. If you think Judaism and Christianity are based off that religion, then why are you Catholic? Unless I am mistaken.
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You are mistaken, but I get why.

Your initial post in this conversation gave me the impression that you were giving Judaism’s age as some indicator of it’s correctness. I’ve heard lots of people try to do this with Buddhism or Hinduism, and I’ve heard some Catholics try to do with with Protestantism, as though age is the sole criteria that determines if something is “right.”

The point I was trying to make with my statement about Zoroastrianism is that it is almost as old as Judaism, and I’ve heard some people try to claim that it’s older. Per my interpretation of your intention in stating Judaism’s age, that would give Zoroastrianism essentially an equal claim to correctness.

I realize that probably was not your intent, and didn’t mean for it to become a major focal point of the discussion.
 
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Latin said:
THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect, rejects the hypothetical predestination. – There is no hypothetical predestination in Catholic Soteriology, please ProdglArchitect consult with your priest in this matter.
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Latin, the very article you link as proof reject’s your position. You also still seem to be thinking that I believe in negative reprobation, which I do not.
Latin said:
Moreover, in order to realize infallibly his decree, God is compelled to frustrate the eternal welfare of all excluded a priori from heaven, and to TAKE CARE that they die in their sins.
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You are only reading from section B, the one you personally seem to like, and what’s more, you seem to be completely ignoring the bits and pieces you don’t like. In fact, in reading this, you skip over the very next sentence, which refutes your position.

If you’re going to just quote from the article in this disingenuous way, I am going to start refusing to engage with you, because it’s a pain to find the bits and pieces you’re quoting and then make sense of them in the greater context of the article.

My turn to do a little bolding:
Moreover, in order to realize infallibly his decree, God is compelled to frustrate the eternal welfare of all excluded a priori from heaven, and to take care that they die in their sins. Is this the language in which Holy Writ speaks to us? No; there we meet an anxious, loving father, who wills not “that any should perish, but that all should return to penance” (II Pet., iii, 9).
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(emphasis mine)

The very next sentence of the article refutes the point you seem to be trying to make. “That all should return to penance.” This clearly indicates that a person’s salvation is contingent on their response to God’s grace, and therefore that someone, though technically predestined by God’s desire for all to be saved, may be lost through their own inaction.

I’m going to be as kind and polite as I can here, but you really need to hear this and take it to heart.

Stop quoting this article without attribution.

Stop just quoting this article.

Stop trying to twist it to say something it clearly does not

If you’re going to quote from the article, don’t cut out the sentences that disagree with you, and also use the
and
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markers to denote your quotations. Also, if you’re going to bold or italicize something within a quote, you need to make it clear that you are the one making that change, usually via the (emphasis mine) marker you see above.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand. I encourage you to actually read the whole of section B, because it clearly points out fundamental problems with your formulation of predestination. Then, I encourage you to closely read section C, because it presents an acceptable formation of predestination that does not stray into either universalism or double predestination.
 
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twf said:
He was in good standing with the Church
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I agree, and von Balthasar also was B XVI’s favourite theologian, but he still claimed we can hope all may be saved.
Latin said:
the buck stops with God.
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Well said. We are saved by the life, passion, death and resurrection of Jesus. We do not save ourselves.
oliver109 said:
it can always be fixed by getting back to Confession.
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No. Very many people (non-Catholcs) do not have access to confession.
 
Did you get my response about heaven and hell? You’re the OP. Please see my response. It is very important. Hell, at least in the Jewish view, is just imagination. I understand that that is the Jewish view and not the Catholic one, but you can still read my response if you’re curious.
 
You see, in Judaism, there is no hell. No rabbi ever really took hell seriously, especially Rambam and the Ralbag. Therefore, for us, there is a) no fear of it, and b) we don’t have to be concerned with G-d sending people there.
 
Rabbi said:
I understand that that is the Jewish view and not the Catholic one, but you can still read my response if you’re curious.
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I’m not the OP, yet I do find your (the Jewish) opinion important. It shows us how the pre-Christ people understood salvation. Yet, since Christ came, we as Christians must believe in His word, as He frequently spoke about Hell. I’m not suggesting that we understand Hell fully, by any means. There is much debate about details.

We (as Christians) know by reading what Christ said (and He reiterated this multiple times) in the Gospel of St Matthew that Hell itself is permanent. We could further suppose that the soul remains in Hell as Scripture talks about perdition and eternal punishment.

I don’t think there are many who believe in Hell who aren’t somewhat concerned by this as we all have loved ones; family and friends that we must pray for. It’s not an easy read, certainly, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t truth simply because we don’t like it.

The eternal fire of Hell and the loss of God could be seen as the same thing. Having known something of the sheer beauty and healing and joy and love of God and then being permanently separated from Him would make one burn for loss of Him… it really depends on how you look at it.

There’s no escaping the fact (at least for followers of Christ) that Hell is real, if you believe Christ’s revelation, and inevitably a number of souls are heading there. We don’t know who, or how many. We must repent and change our ways, and not just close our eyes or deceive ourselves.

The comfort is that Christ died for us, and one could hope that there are those who, although they didn’t find the narrow gate (Christ), they may ultimately be saved, too… the Catechism and Scripture can support this view. Those who do the will of God the best way they can by following their conscience… regretting wrongdoings and by love of neighbour perhaps, even though they don’t know God yet.
 
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It is good that Catholic tradition, unlike Southern Baptists, reserves the right for non-believers in Jesus a place in heaven.

I have a quick question, if you don’t mind. Why wasn’t Bar Kochba the Messiah? Perhaps he is the Messiah after all?
 
Rabbi said:
I have a quick question, if you don’t mind. Why wasn’t Bar Kochba the Messiah? Perhaps he is the Messiah after all?
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Bar Kochba didn’t fulfill any prophecies, and his military rebellion against the Romans was just that—a military event, just as all the countless military events in history, they all pass away after time. The Church survives today after 2000 years despite all the enemies without and within that try to destroy her.
 
“Bar Kochba didn’t fulfill any prophecies.” Now you know why we Jews reject Jesus.
 
I don’t know who Bar Kochba is, please excuse my ignorance. I don’t have a great deal of time but here’s what I can give you briefly, without wishing to sidetrack the thread.

There are a great many references about the Christ… which although as the people may not have recognised these as being references to the Messiah beforehand, we see these as a foreshadowing.

We knew that He would be a descendant of Abraham (everlasting covenant), and of David (the throne of his kingdom), he would be Immanuel (God with us), we have the birth place (Bethlehem), and the calling out of Egypt, we have the preaching itself which align with the Old Testament, we have His rejection, the betrayal, His suffering, the piercing and the death prophecies, the casting of lots and the conquering death. We have the Passover and the Bread of the Presence, the blood atoning for us. We also have the witness of the apostles and the disciples. I realise I haven’t gone into a lot of detail but I’m out of time. If you are interested further, there are probably plenty of websites that I’m sure could do a better job of comparing Old and New Testament details.
 
Rabbi said:
“Bar Kochba didn’t fulfill any prophecies.” Now you know why we Jews reject Jesus.
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That’s only true if you completely ignore the NT, which I understand you do. However, from a Catholic perspective, Christ not only fulfilled some of the OT prophecies regarding the messiah, but all of them. Many Jews saw him completing them, which is why so many Jews converted to Christianity.
 
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