Go to Hell - Stay there forever

[Gab123]

Who in this life can really choose evil in a fully enlightened view of its severity? And given our shattered intellect and will, who can be asked to pay for eternity for a choice made in partial knowledge? Who would NOT choose God knowing him clearly? I cannot fathom this.

As if God doesn’t give us a conscience. We aren’t irrational animals here. And it was God who said He has written His law on everyone’s heart. Thee’s A reason why sin is often done in the dark— hidden from others. Take the one sin of adultery. Let’s say a man is married with children and commits adultery (grave matter). Knowing it is wrong, (full knowledge) he hides the affair, cheats on his wife, lies to her and continues his carnal relations with the other woman that results in a divorce, a devastated wife and a broken home. If he didn’t know all those things were wrong he wouldn’t have hidden it.

If he didn’t give full consent to it he wouldn’t have done it. Obviously, if the man sincerely repents and asks GOD for forgiveness, the man can be saved, whereas if he hated his wife and didn’t care about his children and did not repent and hardened his heart nd dies in that state of separation from God, there are TONS of Scripture warning of the eternal consequences, for example, Scripture explains:

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Rev. 20:12-15

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. Rev. 22: 14-15

 

[Gab123]

I don’t see how any choice made now is of eternal weight

God made us for Himself, so that we inherit His Kingdom and have a share in His eternal life—. Since our souls are immortal our choices have eternal ramifications. A single murder destroys entire generations of people, kills the future opportunities of others, devastates families, destroys happiness, incites hatred, revenge, etc.

A conscience can be followed, suppressed or killed. Those who suppress or kill the conscience abundantly die in that state of separation from God, seal their own fate. Hell is a built-in consequence, much like blindness is the “punishment” for plucking one’s own eyes out.

 

[po18guy]

When we stand in the Lord’s presence, being perfected, we will possess a far greater knowledge and understanding of all aspects of God. We will be satisfied that those in hell are receiving God’s perfect justice. We must not conflate our extremely limited and flawed earthly thoughts and reasoning with the perfected, fully conformed to God’s will thinking and reasoning we possess in heaven. There are no tears, no sorrow, no regrets in heaven. We cannot be disappointed. Thus, those in hell - even all of our loved ones, will be pleasing to us at some level.

 

[Latin]

Thus, those in hell - even all of our loved ones, will be pleasing to us at some level.

I can tell you Po18guy, that would NEVER please me!!!

The whole (maybe not the infernalists) Catholic Church is praying and asking God (1058) to save everyone, we all should believe God will answer our prayers and He will save everyone.

God bless

 

[po18guy]

Last I checked the Church does not teach universal salvation - through the prayers of the faithful or any other means. God saves whom He will. But, we must not labor under the impression that God will automatically save everyone - that would render Christ’s sacrifice meaningless.

Fr. John Hardon, S.J. rhetorically asked: “If no one is in hell by this this date, what must one do to get there?”

 

[Latin]

God can do anything that is logically possible but not all things imaginable. St. Thomas Aquinas commented on this topic:
St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae I:25:3-4 .

Thank you for your answer Vico, I agree with your answer or I should say, I agree with the answer of St.Thomas Aquinas.

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The CCC is also in line with the teachings of St.Thomas Aquinas.

308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
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St. Thomas also teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES , and ELICITS the free response of man. …”

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The CCC and the Catholic Encyclopedia Divine Providence is also in line with each other.

324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.

311 For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;

His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.

God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.

Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10;

Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, Enchir.", xi in P.L. LX, 236; Serm.

Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in P.L.
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That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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The CCC is very clear: 324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil. – The good is, God makes us Glorified Saints.
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God bless

 

[prayerrider]

Every time this thread title pops up I’m reminded of that horror flick Drag Me to Hell. Every time.
Corrupted by pop culture. It’s insidious.

 

[Latin]

God saves whom He will.

Amen. This is exactly what I believe. I wish everyone know it.

I believe, as God has a vehement Universal Salvific Will and He wills to save everyone and He saves everyone.

Fr. John Hardon, S.J. rhetorically asked: “If no one is in hell by this this date, what must one do to get there?”

Eph.1:10-11; In the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.
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Col.1:20; Through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
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1 Tim.4:10; For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

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God is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe, NO ONE can be at the same time in Christ and in hell.

God does not let anyone to go to hell.

So, if an intellectually disabled person would chose to go to hell, God heals him and after healed, he infallibly repent/ ask forgiveness and he infallible choose to go home to heaven.
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God bless

 

[po18guy]

Jesus’ blood was shed for the many - not for all. To believe in universal salvation is not in accord with Church teaching, and it denies the free will of those who consciously reject God. Do you think that there will be grumbling in heaven by those who did not want to be saved?

 

[Latin]

1 John 2:2; He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
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We must make it very clear, our free wills are AIDED GIFT OF GOD, NOT an unaided gift of God and our free wills are NOT INDEPENDENT from God’s will.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).

Our willing and choosing ALWAYS depends on God’s will, what God wills for us, that what we choose FREELY WITHOUT any force.

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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
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St. Thomas also teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES , and ELICITS the free response of man. …”

In other words, when God commands, He capacities the hearer to respond.
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Our cooperation with the grace of God is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation.

Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
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God bless

 

[Gab123]

Those people in the parable never actually did good though, they did not carry out his will. I am talking about someone like myself who does try and avoid mortal sin possibly falling into Hell because I did something bad on the day my soul was required of me. Christianity is supposed to be a religion of mercy and forgiveness, you keep mentioning the Devils and how they chose against God but you cannot really compare us to Devils as the majority of sinners do actually ask for forgiveness after they have sinned.

Ultimately it’s about the killing of the old self and the transformation of heart; not about following rules. Here is a talk I recommend for making progress, especially now that we are in lent:

 

[Vico]

The good is, God makes us Glorified Saints.

Those that cooperate with the grace given them, in final perseverance, become glorified saints, and others, through their own free will choice are not glorified.

Catechism

1033 … Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. 611 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”
1034 … Jesus solemnly proclaims that he “will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,” …
1035 … The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. …
1036 … Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. …
1037 … for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. …

 

[Latin]

…
final perseverance
…

GOD’S INFALLIBLE PROTECTION OF THE SALVATION OF EVERY OF HIS CHILD/ ELECT OF GOD

St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:

[P]erseverance is called he abiding in good TO the end of life.

And in order to have this perseverance man . . . needs the divine assistance guiding him and guarding him against the attacks of the passions . . . that he may be kept from evil TILL the end of his life (ST IIa:109:10) .
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This same teaching was infallibly taught by the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation.
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A Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin

Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of That Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance," and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of "the gift of perseverance of which it is written:

‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’ Which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4]."

Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is; The gift of final perseverance always works.
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Catholics even have a special name for the GRACE God gives these people: “The Gift of Final Perseverance.”
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The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance.

Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere.

Aquinas said, “Predestination [to final salvation] most certainly and infallibly takes effect.”

In order to have this perseverance man…needs the divine assistance guiding and guarding him against the attacks of the passions…” End quote.
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At baptism every elect,CALLED TO ETERNAL LIFE is a recipient of God’s free gift of special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, which is an INFALLIBLE Protection of the Salvation/ Everlasting Life of every elect of God. – As we see above, no one can be saved without God’s gift of FINAL PERSEVERANCE.

Please Vico don’t answer this post, because I only explained the FINAL PERSEVERANCE to those who may not yet familiar with it.

I will answer the rest of your post.

God bless

 

[Rob2]

I have a problem with God’s mercy and love, and it is hell.

Sometimes I think reading some of the stuff posted on CAF must be pretty close to hell .

Which reminds me of this quote - - - - - - - - -

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[wkj_123]

There is no limit to God’s love and mercy, but we can reject it. You can love your child, but you can’t force your child to love you, or are you going to lock your child in a room with you until your child says he/she loves you?

I always have struggled with this. So basically it’s like saying well I can’t force my child to love me, so I guess the only alternative is to put my child into a lake of fire forever? I feel Good is all powerful. God set all this up beforehand. I just feel like we love our children enough that if we created them, hell would never have been an option, no matter if they loved us back or not.

 

[Gab123]

We can choose to go to hell, but not to heaven. Nothing meritoious can be done without God’s grace.

But if we choose to respond to God’s grace aren’t we choosing heaven?

 

[Gab123]

always have struggled with this. So basically it’s like saying well I can’t force my child to love me, so I guess the only alternative is to put my child into a lake of fire forever? I feel Good is all powerful. God set all this up beforehand. I just feel like we love our children enough that if we created them, hell would never have been an option, no matter if they loved us back or not.

It’s not like that at all. We were made for truth, goodness and love, but if we live our life living a lie, doing evil things and choosing hate, then we’ve essentially made ourselves children of the devil. One has to understand that God is goodness itself. He is the Source. Remove God and His grace and all you have left is the absence of God, which is evil, hatred and chaos. Those in hell are not God’s children, thus the damned souls lost their inheritance and are now children of the devil.

John the Evangelist sums it up:

Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. 1John 3:7-10

 

[Latin]

Those that cooperate with the grace given them, in final perseverance, become glorified saints, and others, through their own free will choice are not glorified.

OUR SALVATION/ PREDESTINATION TO HEAVEN IS TOTALLY GOD’S DECISION

John 6:44; No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.

While St. Thomas says that man turns to God by his own free will, he explains that free-will can only be turn to God, when God turns it.
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CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.

No ONE rejects God’s Predestination to eternal life in heaven. – DE FIDE .

Every predestined to heaven at baptism receives God’s gift of efficacious grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, which is an INFALLIBLE protection of every predestined to heaven.

Everyone is on the broad road to hell and end up in hell whom God failed to predestine to heaven.

Catechism

1033 …
1034 …
1035 …
1036 …
1037 … for this, a wilful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. …

All of the above paragraphs even they are true and correct, their practical significances are irrelevant, I’m sorry to say, in my opinion, they are not much more then smoke screens.

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The following excerpt from the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Predestination of the elect explains the reason.
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Quote: Whatever view one may take regarding the internal probability of negative reprobation, it CANNOT be harmonized with the DOGMATICALLY certain UNIVERSALITY and sincerity of God’s salvific will.
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For the absolute predestination of the blessed is at the same time the ABSOLUTE will of God “NOT TO ELECT” a priori the rest of mankind (Suarez), or which comes to the same, “to EXCLUDE them from heaven” (Gonet), in other words, NOT to save them.
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How can that will to save be called serious and sincere which has DECREED from all eternity the metaphysical impossibility of salvation?
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He who has been reprobated negatively, may exhaust all his efforts to attain salvation: it avail’s him NOTHING.
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Moreover, in order to realize infallibly his decree, God is compelled to frustrate the eternal welfare of all excluded a priori from heaven, and to TAKE CARE that they die in their sins. End quote.

Predestination | Catholic Answers Encyclopedia

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As we see above, for them whom God failed to predestine to heaven, 1033, 1034, 1035, 1036, 1037, are irrelevant because they may exhaust all their efforts to attain salvation: it avail’s them NOTHING.

Of course the above paragraphs irrelevant for those as well who are predestined to heaven, because they cannot die in the state of mortal sin.
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God bless

 

[Gab123]

 

[Gab123]

OUR SALVATION/ PREDESTINATION TO HEAVEN IS TOTALLY GOD’S DECISION

Listen then to what the parable of the sower means:

“When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path.

The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”
—Jesus Christ