God alone provides Salvation - Ezekiel 36

[Pat_De]

Salvation comes from God alone who in his grace, gives us faith, which moves us to good works. Salvation is always and everywhere a gratuitous gift from God - but this is how he chooses to saves us.

By trying to exclude works altogether, you have to ignore key passages of Scripture, such as Matt. 25 and James 2.17. The Catholic Church sees scripture as a whole and gives weight to every part; the parts that speak of salvation through grace (that is gift of God), through faith and through works. We need to harmonise these, not try and play them off against each other.

We haven’t even touched on the fruits of Salvation, which God also preordained that the man of God would walk in them… I have not ignored anything; I’m getting you to see just how depraved a person really is and that left to themselves according to Scripture, they would never chose God and would only chose sin. This is why repentance, which is also granted by God is just the beginning.

The Church of Christ believes the same as you do, that water baptism imparts saving grace; something you must do, but that takes God’s glory in the work of salvation and puts it on human achievement. I can cut to the chase and ask you a simple question; why do you go to confession?

 

[Pat_De]

You’re right, that in a specific concrete case of someone, whom you know, and in whom there is a specific issue in his/her life, then it is a positive thing (in love) to raise it to that persons attention.

However I would offer you to fruits of my experience.

1. Telling people to that “All men, being dead in their sins, born haters of God, and a dead person can’t react to anything” will not bring them to repentance, but to despair. That is hardly good evangelisation.
2. If you fall into the trap of thinking that ‘loads of other unspecific Christians aren’t going to heaven, but I am’, there is a huge danger of spiritual pride, plus it can make your proclaimation of Christian sound negative. Instead, it is better to hope for the salvation of all those we meet and whatever stage of the spiritual life they are at encourage them to seek the “holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.” (Hebrews 12.14)

May God Bless you.

On point one; the truth should bring one to despair and it is only when one reaches a point of desperation that they will call out to God. Now you are getting it. No man can bring a sinner to repentance; that is the work of God, not man. God uses men to proclaim all of His truth, not part of it.

On point 2, a dead person has no ability to seek; they run from God.

"***as it is written, ***“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.” 13 “THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,” “THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”; 14 “WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”; 15 “THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD, 16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS, 17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.” 18 ***“THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD ***BEFORE THEIR EYES.”

How were you saved?

 

[NotWorthy]

  			Originally Posted by **NotWorthy** 					[forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7043666#post7043666) 				
  		*You present a conundrum.

A) All men are sinners.
B) God hates all sinners
C) Jacob is loved by God.

How does this compute?*

Tell it to God, He wrote it! Disagree with Him and tell Him He is wrong, not me.

Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

So, you get to pick and choose which verses of God you believe and write the rest of it off as “non-explainable”?

Harmonize Scripture, Pat, harmonize it. It’s all God’s glory and it isn’t contradictory. If you find contradictions, then you need to look within your own self and find where you are wrong.

 

[NotWorthy]

"***as it is written, ***“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.” 13 “THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,” “THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”; 14 “WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”; 15 “THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD, 16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS, 17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.” 18 ***“THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD ***BEFORE THEIR EYES.”

How were you saved?

Pat, this is the second time you’ve posted this. Very good! Now, “where is it written”? Look to the Psalms that Paul is quoting and look at the context of these psalms. Don’t the psalms use this “there is none that are righteous” to paint those that are enemies of God’s beloved, the psalmist? He’s not pointing it to all men, just those that are God’s enemies.

 

[Crown_of_Thorns]

I can cut to the chase and ask you a simple question; why do you go to confession?

Because Christ set up the sacrament of confession and therefore wishes us to use it.

*“As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” *(John 20.21-23). However could the apostles and their successors determine whether to forgive or retain sins without a confession of those sins?

“But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he then said to the paralytic—“Rise, pick up your bed and go home.” And he rose and went home. When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men." (Matt 9:7-8) (Emphasis added)

 

[Crown_of_Thorns]

If one does not know that God is residing in them, then they are still dead because God is not in them. God grants repentance, God grants faith, God grants salvation not because of man, but despite of man.

But according your earlier post one CANNOT KNOW FOR SURE that God is residing in him (cf. my example of the minister who really, really believed God was residing in him, but later in his life it appeared that wasn’t the case). If we follow your own logic, nobody can have God residing in him.

 

[Crown_of_Thorns]

On point one; the truth should bring one to despair

Despair is a sin in and of itself. The idea that we have to sin in order to be saved is clearly wrong.

 

[Crown_of_Thorns]

The Church of Christ believes the same as you do, that water baptism imparts saving grace; something you must do, but that takes God’s glory in the work of salvation and puts it on human achievement. I can cut to the chase and ask you a simple question; why do you go to confession?

Ultimately, your questions here come down to a matter of interpretation of Scripture. The interpretations I have offered are the same as those taught by the Catholic Church, who was established by Christ and has taught the truth consistently for 2000 years.

Who established the Church of Christ and what was his or her authority?

May God Bless you in your walk with Christ.

 

[Pat_De]

NotWorthy:
So, you get to pick and choose which verses of God you believe and write the rest of it off as “non-explainable”?

Harmonize Scripture, Pat, harmonize it. It’s all God’s glory and it isn’t contradictory. If you find contradictions, then you need to look within your own self and find where you are wrong.

Do you see the title of the the thread? God alone provides salvation. Is that enough harmony for you or is it not? Don’t confuse apparent contradictions with real ones, there are no contradictions. Here if you want to know how salvation is done, then this is it in a nutshell.

28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, ***He also glorified. ***

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33 ***Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? ***God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who condemns?

Do you see anything contradictory; do you believe in the teaching of election? If not, then you don’t believe what you just read above. If not, then tell me if you are saved and if so how?

 

[Pat_De]

Pat, this is the second time you’ve posted this. Very good! Now, “where is it written”? Look to the Psalms that Paul is quoting and look at the context of these psalms. Don’t the psalms use this “there is none that are righteous” to paint those that are enemies of God’s beloved, the psalmist? He’s not pointing it to all men, just those that are God’s enemies.

You need to look at the context of both the Psalms and more importantly the context of Paul. Your problem is you do not believe the word of God; as plain as it is before you; you can’t handle the truth set before you. What is Paul trying to defend here and how does it apply to all Christians? Paul is using the OT to prove His point; just as Jesus often did.

 

[NotWorthy]

You need to look at the context of both the Psalms and more importantly the context of Paul. Your problem is you do not believe the word of God; as plain as it is before you; you can’t handle the truth set before you. What is Paul trying to defend here and how does it apply to all Christians? Paul is using the OT to prove His point; just as Jesus often did.

But when Paul cites an OT reference, one MUST look at the context of the OT passage to understand what Paul is saying. You seem to agree with this statement, but you don’t seem to be doing that.

The OT passages, as I mentioned the first time, are speaking of those who are enemies of God and His people. When the psalmists says, “None are Righteous…” he is speaking of these enemies. Not everybody in the history of the world. Do you think St. Paul is using this same theme, or is he changing it to mean all people?

 

[NotWorthy]

Do you see the title of the the thread? God alone provides salvation. Is that enough harmony for you or is it not? Don’t confuse apparent contradictions with real ones, there are no contradictions. Here if you want to know how salvation is done, then this is it in a nutshell.

I understand that God alone provides Salvation. You’ll get no argument from me or any other Orthodox thinking Christian.

But, let me ask you, do we participate in His Salvation plan for us?

 

[Pat_De]

Because Christ set up the sacrament of confession and therefore wishes us to use it.

*“As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” *(John 20.21-23). However could the apostles and their successors determine whether to forgive or retain sins without a confession of those sins?

“But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he then said to the paralytic—“Rise, pick up your bed and go home.” And he rose and went home. When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men." (Matt 9:7-8) (Emphasis added)

Let me tell you why I confess my sins. I confess because although my sins have all been put away by no merit of my own; they are an offense to His holiness, which is what sin is and because I am His child and He is my Father and I love Him as much as humanly possible, I confess, apologize and ask for forgiveness and this gives Him the right as my Father to either punish me or chasten or have mercy. I do it out of reverence and love, not as a ritual. No one but God can forgive sins as it is written. (Mark 2:7 “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?”) You have twisted the text of Scripture above to form you own image of God, which seems to be man centered and not Christ centered. 18 Many also of those who had believed kept coming, confessing and disclosing their practices." Coming to who; a Priest? Who chastens the child of God ? Absolution, the condition of being formally forgiven by a priest in the sacrament of penance is not found anywhere in Scripture or practiced by the early church. They confessed to one another as we do today for accountability to each other and to help each other to abstain from sin and thus offending God’s Holiness.

Here is what the writer of Hebrews chapter 12 states:
4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM; 6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."
7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness.

Do you see the difference; one is Christ centered while the other is man centered? I praise God for the Book of Hebrews because it dispels many things concerning man centered religions in my opinion. Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses come to mind among others. God never gave a formula for salvation and a “catch-net” in case we can’t hold our own; He gave us His only Son! Do you understand that Jesus Christ died for sinners and God the Father crushed His Son in order to redeem the elect of God! That is incomprehensible and I’m so thankful I am a part of it praise be to God.

Anyone can tell someone they are bound in their sins or not if they give them the “good news” and do not accept it and repent, then you warn them “as it is you will die in your sins unless you repent”, thus says the Lord for the message came from Heaven did it not? You can read the sermon Jesus spoke in Matthew 18, where He repeats the concept to all of the crowd.

In the context of the passage, the use of “men” was the murmurings of the crowd; they saw a single man, Jesus, state He can forgive sins.

In Luke’s account it states this:* "They were all struck with astonishment and began glorifying God; and they were filled with fear, saying,* ***“We have seen remarkable things today.” ***

 

[Pat_De]

But according your earlier post one CANNOT KNOW FOR SURE that God is residing in him (cf. my example of the minister who really, really believed God was residing in him, but later in his life it appeared that wasn’t the case). If we follow your own logic, nobody can have God residing in him.

Again you own image of God and His redemptive work and what He has said. Your example was silly at best since the Bible; Christ Himself said you will know them by their fruits. In your example the fruit was a bad fruit exposed and thus proved to be a false faith. For if God grants faith and He does, then any other faith is false and you will know them by their fruits.

First John was written entirely so we may know and has the tests of true faith and Paul said Test yourselves {to see} if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you–unless indeed you fail the test?

If you can’t pass the tests and don’t know if Christ is in you or not, then you have a serious problem in my opinion.

 

[Pat_De]

Despair is a sin in and of itself. The idea that we have to sin in order to be saved is clearly wrong.

***Romans 3:
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,

THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;

THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,

THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,

WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,"

“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;

14 “WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;

15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,

16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,

17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."

18 “THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. ***

If this doesn’t cause despair and desperation coming from a Holy and Just God, then nothing can bring one to despair over their total depravity before God. Blessed are the poor on Spirit; These are the people that are “spiritually bankrupt” and recognize what Roman 3 says about their condition. If a man with cancer denies he has cancer he has no hope of finding a cure does he?

Does this sound like someone broken in spirit, desperate and in great despair?
***"But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ ***

What about Isaiah?
***Isaiah 6:5 Then I said, “Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.” *** Did he just sin in his great despair? He saw the glory of God and cursed himself.

I pray all would see how desperately wicked they are before a Holy God, but it is because of that very wickedness that they can’t come to God unless God allows them because man in his wickedness would never chose God because they love their sin.

 

[Pat_De]

Ultimately, your questions here come down to a matter of interpretation of Scripture. The interpretations I have offered are the same as those taught by the Catholic Church, who was established by Christ and has taught the truth consistently for 2000 years.

Who established the Church of Christ and what was his or her authority?

May God Bless you in your walk with Christ.

The Eastern Orthodox would claim the exact same so who is correct? {Rhetorical)

God established the church, has authority over His church and makes all sufficient provisions for His church and His church is growing daily and has since the day of Pentecost until now and will continue until the fullness of the gentiles has come and the church is in perfect unity with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Pat_De]

But when Paul cites an OT reference, one MUST look at the context of the OT passage to understand what Paul is saying. You seem to agree with this statement, but you don’t seem to be doing that.

The OT passages, as I mentioned the first time, are speaking of those who are enemies of God and His people. When the psalmists says, “None are Righteous…” he is speaking of these enemies. Not everybody in the history of the world. Do you think St. Paul is using this same theme, or is he changing it to mean all people?

**
What part of the plain words of Paul do you not get?**
What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written,

then after he quotes Isaiah, here is what he says:
*19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. *

then the great truth of true salvation; Justification by His grace, by faith in Christ ALONE!!
It is all of God and nothing of the merits or works of man, God grants faith, repentance, justification, sanctification and glorification through the chosen of God by the redemptive work on the cross of Christ!! Praise God for such a gift to a worthless sinner.

 

[Pat_De]

I understand that God alone provides Salvation. You’ll get no argument from me or any other Orthodox thinking Christian.

But, let me ask you, do we participate in His Salvation plan for us?

Not is the way you are taught. This is how God puts it; any other way is not His way, but someone else’s way; man centered.

Eph 2: ***For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. *** There is the Christians sanctification as God molds His children to the image of His Son; praise God that He would chose a wretched sinner to be conformed to His Son’s image, what a great love is that!!

 

[Crown_of_Thorns]

The Eastern Orthodox would claim the exact same so who is correct? {Rhetorical)

God established the church, has authority over His church and makes all sufficient provisions for His church and His church is growing daily and has since the day of Pentecost until now and will continue until the fullness of the gentiles has come and the church is in perfect unity with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

But what do you call “the church”? If by “church” you mean an organisation which teaches what you are teaching here, then such a church did not exist until the reformation, at the earliest; perhaps not until later. For your church to be teaching the fullness of truth, then one would have to accept that the true teachings of Christ were lost, until they were restored by Luther and Calvin - to whom you would have to accord the status of prophet, so significantly did they differ from what had come before. As Catholics, we believe that all new revelation ended with the death of the last apostle.

The orthodox do have a claim to be the true Church, and their teachings are very similar to Catholic teaching. They would certainly have short shrift with the ideas you are promoting here. If you wish to discuss whether the Catholic Church or Orthodox Churches have the better claim to being the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, established by Christ, then we can have that discussion. However, the fact that this debate exists between Catholic and Orthodox Christians does nothing to strengthen the claims of your church to be the true and authoritative Church; established as it was at least 1500 years after Christ, or 450 after the Orthodox schism.

“To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant.” (John Henry Newman)

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you!

 

[Cruxis117]

I forget baptism? You that work you are taught that removes original sin and cannot be found anywhere in the Christian bible? You are dead in your sins and trespasses and dead men can’t do anything can they except be dead.

You have it backwards for God is mighty and strong; who would give their Son to die? If you have any kids at all would you give them up to death for anyone? I couldn’t do that, but God did. You have an image of God of your own making and idea that is not found in Scripture. We are responsible for a choice and there in lies the problem, we were born of sin and as such we are born to hate God and God has spoken that not one person seeks after him, that is the choice of the man left to himself. If not for election, no one would be in heaven because men love the darkness and we are born into darkness and our very nature is darkness. Can a leopard change it’s spots? No! They neither can you who are accustomed to sin unless God grants you repentance and faith and salvation. Baptism by water is a man made teaching and has nothing to do with Christianity in relation to salvation as taught in the Christian Bible; it is a command and act of obedience once a person has been awakened or quickened by God Himself… You have no idea the depravity of sin and sinners and the hatred toward God in which that sin manifests itself and until one grasps that, then in no way will they ever beg God for mercy.

It’s a Man Made Teaching?

Matthew 28:19 - “Go therefore … baptizing them in the name of the Father …”
Mark 16:16 - “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved”
John 3:5 -"Truly, Truly, I say to you, unless you are born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

And that’s just Jesus alone, lets see what the Apostles did.

Acts 2:38
Acts 2:41
Acts 8:12
Acts 8:38
Acts 10:48
Acts 22:16
Colossians 2:11-12
Acts 16:30, 33
1 Peter 3:21

Sorry, but you are mistaken in your own, false interpretation of God based on failed teaching and unrighteous leadership. We are to be baptized, born anew. It is not only biblical, but Christlike. It has everything to do with Christianity. Furthermore, the Scriptures you hold dear are a product of Sacred Tradition instituted by the Catholic Church. Please reconsider changing your false interpretation, which turns our Holy, Just God into a Sick, Perverted Tyrant, and see the true God which is the unbridled source of Love that came and died for us on a Cross.