God alone provides Salvation - Ezekiel 36

[JohnCS]

Thank you for your interest. It was actually a reversion from tAthesisim to Christianity -Wesslyian Style. But I made it somehow back to the Church of my youth -the Catholic Church. I beleive in god, and the Hebrew Scriptures, but not in Jesus. But I agree 100 with you that only a very small remanent is saved. When i jugded the dead, only 3 people were save. The rest were goats on the left. All of Hindu, buddist, Confusions, and muslims and Protestants have been judged. Only the living Catholics and Jews reamin to be Judged. If you want to stan a chance at Salvation, become a Catholic or Jew. It s the only way to pass into Heaven. People don’t tak ethe words of Jesus seriously. He speaks only Truth. Reread the Gosepls and ask your self how many follow every teaching of Christ. POeople are fool if they think they can slip into Heaven. Evey vese Jesus spoke will be used to judge Catholics. All of Israel will be saved according to St. paul (Romans)

Also, what do you mean by, “I beleive in god, and the Hebrew Scriptures, but not in Jesus.” Are you saying that you don’t beleive in Jesus, or were you trying to describe the Church of your childhood as a church that does not believe in Jesus?

Thanks

John

 

[fhansen]

Don’t be surprized if you find yourself on the left with he Goats after God has Judged the World. I’ve seen how few are on the Right. The Second Judgement takes place over the course of a couple of minutes -just long enough to repeat Matthew 25. On the first day, the goats are condemned. Ontthe sdecond day, the sheep are rewarded. It’s just as the Scriptures (OT and NT) tell us that it’ll be. Are you in the remenant?

When you and Pat De and the other six are up there could you think of the rest of us now and then? I mean, I know we’re a totally depraved wretched lot and all but just maybe you could have one or two kind thoughts or memories of us-if it’s not too much trouble-or not, it’s OK, we’ll get by without you somehow.

 

[fhansen]

Don’t be surprized if you find yourself on the left with he Goats after God has Judged the World. I’ve seen how few are on the Right. The Second Judgement takes place over the course of a couple of minutes -just long enough to repeat Matthew 25. On the first day, the goats are condemned. Ontthe sdecond day, the sheep are rewarded. It’s just as the Scriptures (OT and NT) tell us that it’ll be. Are you in the remenant?

When you and Pat De and the other six are up there could you think of the rest of us now and then? I mean, I know we’re a totally depraved wretched lot and all but just maybe you could have one or two kind thoughts or memories of us-if it’s not too much trouble-or not, it’s OK, we’ll get by without you somehow. Anyway, you did your best for us. We just didn’t respond to all the love.

 

[pcusack1]

Did Hollywood release a new end of the world movie that I didn’t hear about yet?
Or are you referring to a vision of a saint from the past? Or a vision you have had? In a dream? Trance? Visitation?

Thanks

John

Well they got the year righth in 2012. The Idol was installed on Arpil 3, 2005 -within hours of JPII’s death. And the Bishop who installed itstepped down on Oct 14, 2008. Refer to daniel 12. And the 1335 dyas brings us to June 9, 2012. That’s the day OBL was conceived. It’s also the feast of St. Ephraim (Joseph). And the day the 6 day war ended. And the day thfirst Bourbon prince Henry II was crowned.

It’s the end times. you should expect odd events. (see St. Malachy’s Prophecy of the Late Pope) We have about 630 days left before the coming of the Messiah. WWIII will start soon I imagine. Of course its between the Muslims and the Christians and Jews. I expect more terror. i thoughti it might be the burning of the Koran. But it must be something else.

 

[pcusack1]

You present a conundrum.

A) All men are sinners.
B) God hates all sinners
C) Jacob is loved by God.

How does this compute?

I have loved Jacob, but have hated Esau. God shows his mercy to whom he wills. And he wills very few indeed. St. Paul speakes of Predestination. There is sufficient grace for all to be saved, but they blow it. Afew have effective grace and can’t lose Heaven no matter what. God has favourites, but people don’t like ot think about that. The whole of the Bible is about God’s selection of one over another. There must ber a spark that he sees in a person that makes that person have predeliction with God. I think it might be humility or honesty, (which are stems of the same root)

 

[Pat_De]

We know mans righteousness is not the righteousness God desires. True righteousness comes from God alone. But in order to be made righteous man must still *choose *God’s righteousness over his own, just as Adam & Eve chose to reject it. This is what makes man just. The fact that he absolutely needs God’s help in order to do so means what the Church has taught all along and what man must come to learn, simply that, quoting Spe Salvi, “…man needs God, otherwise he remains without hope”.

And if you’re right you might as well quit preaching; Gods going to save us -without us- anyway. In your scenario God created man, gave him laws He knew man couldn’t obey, blamed him for disobedience anyway, then arbitrarily decided to save him in spite of his wretchedness. No rhyme or reason behind it all, no purpose for the fall, just a game.

You’re in error because you think mans salvation is an all-at-once event. Our sanctification* is* our justification, otherwise unjust people would enter heaven, a notion opposed to scripture.

The regenerate that are thankful the the teaching of God on election have just the opposite view of yours. It makes one want to share the Gospel even more; not less. You described a hyper-Calvinist view on election and is heresy in my opinion. God commanded that His royal priesthood go to the entire world and preach the gospel to all creatures and the redeemed wants and desires with their heart what God desires and hates what God hates.
Interesting enough I have never had a Catholic knock on my door nor have a Catholic acquaintance share their faith; not even a tract. I understand why this true and I’m not saying there are not some out there, but given the sheer number of those who proclaim the name Catholic; you would think at least a single person would try to share their faith.

I can look 360 degrees from my house and see 2 Marian statutes and two other houses with Cherubim or some other Catholic type of statute. If I look through the entire subdivision; there are several more displaying the statutes and I would suppose there are even more that do not have statues in their yard that are Catholic. There are at least 5 Catholic churches within a 10 mile radius.

getting back to the issue you brought up; the reason it makes no sense to you is because you have no sense of your own sin nature nor of God’s justice; yet if you only read Romans 3 beginning in verse 9 you would have a clear picture of just how God views man or perhaps Proverbs 6 reading and soaking in should give one an idea about the sinfulness of sin and how God sees a sinner. If not for the elect, no one would chose God and therefore no one would be in heaven; that is how depraved you and I are; especially in light of His holiness which we can’t even begin to comprehend.

 

[Pat_De]

Thank you for your interest. It was actually a reversion from tAthesisim to Christianity -Wesslyian Style. But I made it somehow back to the Church of my youth -the Catholic Church. I beleive in god, and the Hebrew Scriptures, but not in Jesus. But I agree 100 with you that only a very small remanent is saved. When i jugded the dead, only 3 people were save. The rest were goats on the left. All of Hindu, buddist, Confusions, and muslims and Protestants have been judged. Only the living Catholics and Jews reamin to be Judged. If you want to stan a chance at Salvation, become a Catholic or Jew. It s the only way to pass into Heaven. People don’t tak ethe words of Jesus seriously. He speaks only Truth. Reread the Gosepls and ask your self how many follow every teaching of Christ. POeople are fool if they think they can slip into Heaven. Evey vese Jesus spoke will be used to judge Catholics. All of Israel will be saved according to St. paul (Romans)

You don’t believe in Jesus, but in the Hebrew Scripture, what I would refer to as the OT, which points directly to the very Jesus you don’t believe in. I’d rather be an atheist; only there is no such thing as an atheist according to Scripture (Romans 1 & part of 2). The atheist sees his god in the mirror every morning. I’m not sure what you are seeing; you did not make much sense to me perhaps I am misunderstanding???

 

[Pat_De]

Nah, it’s just the opposite. Catholics believe we must become “perfect as the Father is perfect”, “holy because He is holy”-we don’t get off scott-free at all like many “reformed” souls who believe in a righteousness merely imputed to them.

IOW; you deny what scripture teaches and don’t understand the nature of man or God. God chose the elect because He wanted to and He chose the preaching of the Gospel because He wanted to and He did it for His own glory and some men/women are beneficiaries of the redemption provided by Christ on the cross.

Why would God allow you into heaven?

 

[NotWorthy]

Don’t be surprized if you find yourself on the left with he Goats after God has Judged the World. I’ve seen how few are on the Right. The Second Judgement takes place over the course of a couple of minutes -just long enough to repeat Matthew 25. On the first day, the goats are condemned. Ontthe sdecond day, the sheep are rewarded. It’s just as the Scriptures (OT and NT) tell us that it’ll be. Are you in the remenant?

Hmmm… Reveation seems to indicate 144,000 or so (How do they know? They counted the legs and divided by two!). I know this is symbolic number, but it is surely symbolic of a larger number, wouldn’t you say.

By the way, what in the world is a remenant?

 

[Pat_De]

A.M.D.G.e.i. H.M

1. Pat, you have completely ignored the Scripture I showed you referring to a visible Church - a Church to whom one might appeal for a decision, when one has an issue with his brother that cannot otherwise be settled (Matt. 18). How can this Scripture make any sense at all if there is no visible Church?
2. The presence of sinners in the Church doesn’t nullify the existence of the Church. Chrisy built his Church out of sinners.

*Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. *

*"The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

" ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
"The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

" ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest.* At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ " Matthew 13.24-30 (Emphasis added)

Christ foresaw that among the good fruit in the Church, there would be those who did not bear good fruit. But he also prophesied that that would be the case until the harvest - it isn’t going to change.

1. Notwithstanding what I have just said in point 2, the Catholic Church would agree with you that in a sense, the Church consists only of the elect (ie. those going to heaven)

“A person foreknown to damnation is never part of the holy church, even if he is in a state of grace according to present justice; a person predestined to salvation always remains a member of the church, even though he may fall away for a time from adventitious grace, for he keeps the grace of predestination.” (Council of Constance 1414-15, Sentence of degradation against J. Hus, nr. 5)

1. Only the Catholic Church has a mechanism for casting out someone who refuses to listen to the sound teaching. You are complaining about the absence of a way to remove “tares” - well the “invisible” Church has no way of doing this, but the visible Catholic Church does - excommunication.

If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.(Matt 18.17)

1. I would ask you not to say that I am making the Church building an essential part of what the Church is. I have explicitly rejected that in my previous posts, yet you still purport that belief to me, and I think it is adding to the confusion here.

---

Once again it seems that you are absolutising certain tracts of Scripture. There are parts of Scripture which talk of an invisible/mystical Church and there are also parts that speak unmistakably of a visible, authoritative Church. Only the Catholic Church synthesises these scriptures.

May God Bless you!

You are putting words in my mouth; I never said there was not a visible church in fact I said their are churches filled with tares among the wheat; so what are you talking about???

You are kidding yourself if you believe the Catholic church is the only visible church on earth or has the authority to dispute matters of church discipline in non-Catholic churches. I know you did not specifically say that, but the implication is either they can exercise discipline or they don’t see the other church buildings as churches. The local church and the offices of Bishop and Deacons at the local level is very clear in the pastoral epistles. Everyone knows the Pontiff was an invention and very recent in light of 2000 years since Pentecost. All one has to do is read the first 3 chapters in Revelation and you will see names of seven specific localized churches which Jesus Himself names by name.

Not only that, but before Vat II, the Catholic church was very inclusive within itself and its members and the need to be in the Catholic membership to be saved and now liberalism has infested the church to the point where there are multiple paths to God and people are Catholic even if they don’t know it.

Don’t get me wrong; I have nothing against the Catholic people or the Catholic church, but I do believe they teach another gospel and that they have been so liberalized that it has taken a 180 degree turn in less than 60 years from my perspective only. Just as the Catholic church believed since the reformation and even earlier that the “Protestants” were apostates, but now they are “separated brethren”; that is Liberalism. It goes both ways for many Protestant mainline denominations have been infested with Liberalism and don’t even preach or teach the gospel or the nature of God or the nature of man. Those that do are called bigoted and narrow-minded, but the Gospel is very narrow. IOW, the visible church is a mess and the true church is in perfect unity and yet to be revealed.

 

[fhansen]

Why would God allow you into heaven?

Because He chooses to-but not without my consent. You really lack understanding of both God and man.

 

[Ceil-1]

This thread is hard to follow. The OP is posting manically, and it is painful to even read.

I think the OP has said he doesn’t believe in Jesus, but, it’s all over the place, so it’s hard to tell.

 

[pcusack1]

Hmmm… Reveation seems to indicate 144,000 or so (How do they know? They counted the legs and divided by two!). I know this is symbolic number, but it is surely symbolic of a larger number, wouldn’t you say.

By the way, what in the world is a remenant?

All those 144,000 are the Jrews. They haven’t been judged yet. Read Revelation and you’ll see that they are from the 12 tribes of Israel. St. paul saind “All of Israel will be saved”

 

[pcusack1]

You don’t believe in Jesus, but in the Hebrew Scripture, what I would refer to as the OT, which points directly to the very Jesus you don’t believe in. I’d rather be an atheist; only there is no such thing as an atheist according to Scripture (Romans 1 & part of 2). The atheist sees his god in the mirror every morning. I’m not sure what you are seeing; you did not make much sense to me perhaps I am misunderstanding???

Is Jesus the Messiah? If so how does an adoptee have a legal claaim on a Throne. If you could explain this to me I’d appreciate it.

BTW, your soul is translucent and takes the same age and form as when you die. The souls that had been judged by God at the moment of Death. O n the left the souls were packed like sardines in the pews of the Cathedral. They stretched out the back wall as far as the eye could see. On the right. there were three souls- all men. I think all three were Religious. One was about 20, one was about 70 and the other I could not see but only sense but not see…

 

[NotWorthy]

All those 144,000 are the Jrews. They haven’t been judged yet. Read Revelation and you’ll see that they are from the 12 tribes of Israel. St. paul saind “All of Israel will be saved”

Did anybody ever mention that the New Covenant Church is the New Israel restored?

The New Covenant Church is what God had wanted Israel to be, a Light to the Nations. As a nation, you failed. But its not too late, individually to become what God intended for you, you just need to repent and believe in the Gospel!

 

[pcusack1]

Did anybody ever mention that the New Covenant Church is the New Israel restored?

The New Covenant Church is what God had wanted Israel to be, a Light to the Nations. As a nation, you failed. But its not too late, individually to become what God intended for you, you just need to repent and believe in the Gospel!

God doesn’t abandon his people. no matter what they get themselves into in th eHebrew Scriptures, God always takes them back. The Jews will not be lost for sure.

The Catholics, it depends on whether Jesus was really the Messiah. If he were, then his genealogy should work out. The believers wrote it! And they thought about it for 60 years. Was he hte Messiah or a qack rabbi who thought he was the Messiah? Why do you believe?

 

[UnityofTrinity]

Just a small question, since Protestant say that each individual could read and interpret the Bible for themselves, then how do they know exactly what is wrong and right? If there’s no standard or authority, no one could claim what’s right or wrong. How do they do it? Often Protestants will say the Holy Spirit guides me, yet how would they be able to know? God phones them? Texts them? He appears before them? How?

No one seem to care enough to give an answer for this.

Pat De, God in numerous occations commanded His people to make statues, read Kings, Exodus, read about the Ark of Covenant. I should also inform you that the use of images in worship also had been used by early Christians from the 1st century. Ask me why should I believe in you rather than the Bible itself and the early Church Fathers.

Also, you often refer to the word “man made tradition”, base on what authority you’re calling something man made tradition? How about rapture? Altar call? Aren’t they all man-made traditions? Often when I encounter Protestants, I ask questions like these, give them historical evidences and Biblical evidences, most of the time they reacted with emotions rather than reason, especially the people who call themselves “evangelical Christians”

 

[pcusack1]

If we consider the Jewish people, who have suffer more than them at the hands of the Catholics?

BTW The Book of Revelation is considered by soome Jews to be a Jewish book minus the first couple of chapters and the last that refer to Jesus. The rest refers to the Lamb of God or the suffering servant.

 

[Pat_De]

When you and Pat De and the other six are up there could you think of the rest of us now and then? I mean, I know we’re a totally depraved wretched lot and all but just maybe you could have one or two kind thoughts or memories of us-if it’s not too much trouble-or not, it’s OK, we’ll get by without you somehow.

Don’t mock the word of God by including me someone’s delusion; I am a wretch just like you. We know there are at least 144,000 Jews yet to be saved by the Lord after the tribulation; 12,000 from each tribe.

 

[Pat_De]

Hmmm… Reveation seems to indicate 144,000 or so (How do they know? They counted the legs and divided by two!). I know this is symbolic number, but it is surely symbolic of a larger number, wouldn’t you say.

By the way, what in the world is a remenant?

It’s not symbolic it is literal number.