God and Morality

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rossum

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God has given a morality for men in the Bible. However, that is a morality for men and does not apply to God Himself. We often see that argument used to justify some of God’s actions in the Old Testament: since God originated Biblical morality it does not apply to Him and He is not bound by its rules.

If we accept that argument, then there is an obvious question: what morality does God follow, if any?

Is God moral? Does He follow a morality? If so, then what morality does He follow, and what is the source of that morality?

Is God amoral? If so, then there is no morality that applies to God and He is free to act in any way He wishes?

Is God moral or amoral?

Discuss.

rossum
 
rossum said:
God has given a morality for men in the Bible. However, that is a morality for men and does not apply to God Himself. We often see that argument used to justify some of God’s actions in the Old Testament: since God originated Biblical morality it does not apply to Him and He is not bound by its rules.

If we accept that argument, then there is an obvious question: what morality does God follow, if any?

Is God moral? Does He follow a morality? If so, then what morality does He follow, and what is the source of that morality?

Is God amoral? If so, then there is no morality that applies to God and He is free to act in any way He wishes?

Is God moral or amoral?

Discuss.

rossum
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God doesn’t give revelation to anybody. God performed the Grand miracle so called creation in which each being evolves accordingly in this universe and after death in another. God is God, the closest word that we could comprehend and assign to God is just, so we could say that God was just at the time of creation. The word morality does not apply to God since God action after creation is neutral since the creation is perfect and as a result it does not need good and evil action from God side any longer.
 
rossum said:
God has given a morality for men in the Bible. However, that is a morality for men and does not apply to God Himself. We often see that argument used to justify some of God’s actions in the Old Testament: since God originated Biblical morality it does not apply to Him and He is not bound by its rules.

If we accept that argument, then there is an obvious question: what morality does God follow, if any?

Is God moral? Does He follow a morality? If so, then what morality does He follow, and what is the source of that morality?

Is God amoral? If so, then there is no morality that applies to God and He is free to act in any way He wishes?

Is God moral or amoral?

Discuss.

rossum
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God is perfect. He is perfectly rational, and perfectly consistent. Since He created the good, He can not act contrary to it. To do so would violate His perfection.

God Bless
 
bilop said:
God is perfect. He is perfectly rational, and perfectly consistent. Since He created the good, He can not act contrary to it. To do so would violate His perfection.

God Bless
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Corrrect. Those who see morality as external, perhaps arbitrary rules imposed by God on man and not applying to God Himself commit a very serious error. Morality comes from the intersection of reason and the desire for goodness.

Of course, there are things that God could do that would be wrong for a mere human being to do, such as ask for adoration of Himself to take an easy example. In these cases it is not that God is exempt from reason or morality. It is the fact that God is not a creature and therefore those limitations which apply only to creatures do not apply to Him. To use an analogy, there are some things which parents might do which would be wrong for their children to do or attempt, but neither parents nor children are exempt from morality itself.
 
Bahman said:
The word morality does not apply to God since God action after creation is neutral since the creation is perfect and as a result it does not need good and evil action from God side any longer.
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So, you are saying that God is amoral? God has no morality and merely acts as He wishes?

rossum
 
bilop said:
God is perfect. He is perfectly rational, and perfectly consistent.
Click to expand...
I am not discussing God in this thread, I am discussing God’s morality (if He has one).
Since He created the good, He can not act contrary to it.
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Good according to what measure? How do we determine whether any act of God is good? Against what morality (or none) is the goodness measured?

Remember also, Isaiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” (emphasis added)

rossum
 
rossum said:
I am not discussing God in this thread, I am discussing God’s morality (if He has one).

Good according to what measure? How do we determine whether any act of God is good? Against what morality (or none) is the goodness measured?

Remember also, Isaiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” (emphasis added)

rossum
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You will not be able to examine any question such as this concerning God without taking into account who/what God is.
 
rossum said:
So, you are saying that God is amoral?
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God of course is not amoral, knowing what action is good or evil.
rossum said:
God has no morality and merely acts as He wishes?
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First, God created universe justly and perfectly so it does not require further changes. Second, either God gives fate or not which is subject of discussion. In first case God action should be neutral meaning that the action is neither good nor evil since otherwise we could experience God, neutral action is something that can never be experienced it. In second case God does not perform any action since it doesn’t give any fate.
 
Bahman said:
God of course is not amoral, knowing what action is good or evil.
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According to what standard? Is there an external standard, which God follows or does God merely decide for Himself, without reference to any external standard?

The first brings up the question of the origin of that external standard. The second makes God amoral, since He follows whatever He decides for Himself.
First, God created universe justly and perfectly so it does not require further changes.
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The universe was not created perfect. Nowhere in Genesis is creation described as “perfect”. It is variously described as “very good”, “good” and “not good” in different places. Creation also contained the talking serpent and Lucifer before the Fall. Is Lucifer perfect? I do not accept a “perfect” creation.

See also Isaiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” (emphasis added)

rossum
 
rossum said:
God has given a morality for men in the Bible. However, that is a morality for men and does not apply to God Himself. We often see that argument used to justify some of God’s actions in the Old Testament: since God originated Biblical morality it does not apply to Him and He is not bound by its rules.

If we accept that argument, then there is an obvious question: what morality does God follow, if any?

Is God moral? Does He follow a morality? If so, then what morality does He follow, and what is the source of that morality?

Is God amoral? If so, then there is no morality that applies to God and He is free to act in any way He wishes?

Is God moral or amoral?

Discuss.

rossum
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Given: morality = The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct.

The answer to your questions above Is: None of the above.
God is goodness itself. It is his nature to be good. As the perfect being He is, His acts are always in accord with His nature.

He is the standard and there is no standard external to Him that applies.
 
rossum said:
My question does not directly concern God; it concerns God’s morality.

rossum
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God does not have any attributes that are distinct from His essence. You cannot ask about God’s morality without the answer having to do with the nature of God.
 
davidv said:
Given: morality = The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct.
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Correct. I am asking about the existence/origin of the relevant standards.
The answer to your questions above Is: None of the above.
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Then God is amoral. Either there are no relevant standards, or else God sets His own standards. Either can be described as amoral: “I do whatever I want to do”.
God is goodness itself.
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How do you know this? What standards are you using the measure goodness? How can you tell goodness from not-goodness?

rossum
 
rossum said:
Then God is amoral, because He has no separate or distinct morality.

rossum
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No, His morality is inherent in Him. He is good by His nature.

It’s like asking “how many pounds does a one pound bag weigh?” It’s self-definitional.

God Bless
 
I just want to make two points.

First, human morality is about human relationships. The commands of morality aren’t arbitrary rules that we could just as easily do without. They are guides to human behavior and relationships.

Second, the Catholic Church rejects divine command theory, in which all morality is reducible to a command of God. It teaches instead, that moral commands are a reflection of divine nature. God is absolute, so there is nothing above him which he lives by, but he has a certain mode of existence or way of existing. He is good, and he is the the model which we are to imitate and ultimately become like. The morality we live by is our guide on that path. Consequently it is also revelatory of the divine nature and character.
 
rossum said:
Then God is amoral, because He has no separate or distinct morality.

rossum
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Why?
Categorizing Him as amoral stills seems to require that He be compared to an external standard - and a conclusion reached.

It seems that your definition of amoral is not consistent with common usage.

Accepting this definition tentatively, what is the implication?
 
**rossum

Is God moral? Does He follow a morality? If so, then what morality does He follow, and what is the source of that morality?**

God does not follow anything but his own will.

Is God amoral? If so, then there is no morality that applies to God and He is free to act in any way He wishes?

Yes. He is free to follow his own will. Isn’t that self-evident?

It is a good thing for us that God wills good to triumph over evil. Or life could be an everlasting torture chamber such as the devil wills.
 
rossum said:
Then God is amoral, because He has no separate or distinct morality.

rossum
Click to expand...
No. Perhaps it would be helpful to approach this apophatically. Immorality is an imperfection, and amorality if not technically an imperfection at least implies imperfections such as irrationality or lack of freedom. God has no imperfections. Therefore we cannot call God immoral or amoral. The only alternative is to affirm that God is moral, while recognizing that this morality is something that transcends creaturely morality. Ultimately it, like every divine attribute, comes down to the infinite Goodness/Being which is God’s Essence.

For human beings, morality is more external to us because the standards of goodness which determine it are external. Above all the standard is God Himself, the infinite Goodness of which every creaturely goodness is a sort of participation. But in the case of God He is that supreme Goodness itself. The moral agent and the moral standard by which He acts are identical with each other.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
**rossum

Is God moral? Does He follow a morality? If so, then what morality does He follow, and what is the source of that morality?**

God does not follow anything but his own will.

Is God amoral? If so, then there is no morality that applies to God and He is free to act in any way He wishes?

Yes. He is free to follow his own will. Isn’t that self-evident?

It is a good thing for us that God wills good to triumph over evil. Or life could be an everlasting torture chamber such as the devil wills.
Click to expand...
There is no real distinction between that Divine Will and the Goodness which is the supreme standard of all moral acts. Therefore God is both free and infallibly morally good.
 
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