God and Morality

[rossum]

If God is all powerful then He makes the rules, since otherwise He’d be following someone else’s rules.

I’ll take that as anther vote for “God is amoral and sts his own rules”.

There are lots of folk who say God told them what the rules are. Unfortunately they disagree.

Indeed.

rossum

 

[rossum]

He is constrained by His nature - He will not do what is not good, what is not beautiful and what is irrational.

I disagree with you here. God definitely did at least one thing that was “not good”, see Genesis 2:18

Then the LORD God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.” (emphasis added)

As a Buddhist you may get a handle on this by considering Him as He who utters ॐ and thereby brings the universe into existence.

There is no such “He”. The universe exists, but no god created it. Morality (karma) exists, but there is no god enforcing it. Karma is more like gravity – it is built in to the universe.

rossum

 

[Charlemagne_II]

**rossum

There is no such “He”. The universe exists, but no god created it. Morality (karma) exists, but there is no god enforcing it. Karma is more like gravity – it is built in to the universe.**

And who do you think built it?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

**rossum

Then His will, and hence His actions are constrained.**

No, his will cannot be constrained. God is what he is. He will not will himself to be other than what he is.

 

[Bahman]

So, there is a standard. Let’s discuss this standard. Where does it originate? Did God create it to suit Himself, which makes God amoral, or is it external to God, in which case God is moral (assuming He follows it).

First we have to agree on two phases of God, first before creation which God was in state of timeless and second after creation which creation and God are both in state of time but God could act infinitely fast. What creation is, is subject of discussion and we can discuss it further if you wish.

Accepting these two phase, acts can be divided to two modes which in first phase creation is performed and that is required an act which was just, namely good and evil come together so each could play their very important role. The first act was (creation) based on what was discussed is amoral but just since God doesn’t make any difference between good and evil. This doesn’t mean that God doesn’t have a sense of moral but says that act is amoral since both evil and good are included in just way in the creation. In the second phase, Gods action is based on external standard but it is neural/amoral since again God doesn’t make any difference between evil and good. By amoral I mean " unconcerned with the good or evil" when it comes to a just action.

Where the morality is originated from is subject of longer discussion since it is a very complex issue, we can ask where the concept “I am/exist” comes from which is simpler. What is important to know is that God was aware of all the concepts before creation.

Then it is external to God?

It is external after creation. God has a complete understanding of morality but its action is amoral since both evil and good were the basic component of creation, without one we have no sense what other means.

Reality is not “creation” since it was not created. It is probably perfect, but the problem is that our perception of it is imperfect. That is really a discussion for another thread.

What creation is, is subject of discussion but we are sure about two phases, namely God then God+beings which implement that beings are as eternal as God. How beings came to existence is subject of discussion.

Creation is perfect in the sense that there is exactly equal portion of evil and good are used within as we perceive.

 

[bilop]

I disagree with you here. God definitely did at least one thing that was “not good”, see Genesis 2:18

Then the LORD God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.” (emphasis added)

There is no such “He”. The universe exists, but no god created it. Morality (karma) exists, but there is no god enforcing it. Karma is more like gravity – it is built in to the universe.

rossum

That’s funny.

Why is the existence of “karma” believable, but a Creator beyond belief? Who enforces this “karma”?

Besides karma is completely disproved by observation. Many evil people only prosper and never suffer for their sins.

Hell, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot all died in their beds, of old age, despite having murdered over 100 million people between them. Your karma is pretty weak sauce.

God Bless

 

[bilop]

Is it good to stone convicted adulterers to death? At one time God commanded it. Is it not good to stone convicted adulterers to death? At one time God stopped it.

God can obviously change His mind about at least one thing.

rossum

God didn’t change his mind. Earthly punishment is a matter of prudential judgement for the society. The death penalty for adultery isn’t inherently evil, it’s just that forgiveness is better.

You notice that Christ didn’t say to the crowd, “Killing this woman is gravely immoral, desist!”, He said, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”.

He’s saying, yeah, you can punish her, but be careful, you may be punished for your sins too.

God Bless

 

[rossum]

And who do you think built it?

The universe in infinite in time. No, I am not talking just about just the material universe, I am including the spiritual part of the universe as well.

Since the universe is infinite in time, it has no beginning and hence no need for a cause/builder.

rossum

 

[rossum]

No, his will cannot be constrained. God is what he is. He will not will himself to be other than what he is.

Then we are agreed that God is amoral, He can take whatsoever actions He desires.

rossum

 

[rossum]

Why is the existence of “karma” believable, but a Creator beyond belief? Who enforces this “karma”?

There is no “who”. Karma is merely cause and effect. If I throw a rock straight up then it is going to hit me on the head. If I don’t want the rock to hit me on the head, then I don’t throw it up in the first place.

Besides karma is completely disproved by observation. Many evil people only prosper and never suffer for their sins.

Buddhism and Hinduism both have heavens and hells as well as better or worse future lives after death.

Hell, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot all died in their beds, of old age, despite having murdered over 100 million people between them. Your karma is pretty weak sauce.

So they are probably in one of the Hells, or did your God decide that they were saved and are now in the Christian heaven? How would you know?

rossum

 

[rossum]

God didn’t change his mind.

Of course He changed His mind. At the very least He changed His mind from “I wont start creating now” to “I will start creating now”. God must have changed from not-creating to creating, otherwise there would be no creation.

rossum

 

[rossum]

First we have to agree on two phases of God, first before creation which God was in state of timeless and second after creation which creation and God are both in state of time but God could act infinitely fast.

I have a problem with your first stage. Cause and effect cannot operate in a timeless environment because the cause must come before the effect, and in a timeless environment there is no “before”. Since God must have changed from “I am not creating” to “I am creating” then there is change, and hence time must be present. In a timeless environment there is no change. Change is difference over time, and it cannot exist in the absence of time.

Where the morality is originated from is subject of longer discussion since it is a very complex issue

It is indeed complex, but it is the subject of this thread.

It is external after creation. God has a complete understanding of morality but its action is amoral since both evil and good were the basic component of creation, without one we have no sense what other means.

Agreed, we cannot have good without evil, and vice versa. Hence, God must have created both. Again, this points towards God being amoral.

rossum

 

[bilop]

Of course He changed His mind. At the very least He changed His mind from “I wont start creating now” to “I will start creating now”. God must have changed from not-creating to creating, otherwise there would be no creation.

rossum

God is timeless. Every second of existence is “now” for God. He always knew he would create, He knew the Angels would rebel, He knew Adam and Eve would sin, etc., etc.

He can’t “change His mind” b/c God does not experience time.

God Bless

 

[bilop]

There is no “who”. Karma is merely cause and effect. If I throw a rock straight up then it is going to hit me on the head. If I don’t want the rock to hit me on the head, then I don’t throw it up in the first place.

Buddhism and Hinduism both have heavens and hells as well as better or worse future lives after death.

So they are probably in one of the Hells, or did your God decide that they were saved and are now in the Christian heaven? How would you know?

rossum

If there is anything beyond this material world, then God exists in some form. Someone is deciding where those souls will go in the afterlife; someone is judging right and wrong.

It is most likely that all three are in Hell. Given their acts, that’s where they would go barring some last moment conversion. We can’t know with certitude, but given what we know of their lives and deaths, that is the most likely conclusion.

God Bless

 

[bilop]

Agreed, we cannot have good without evil, and vice versa. Hence, God must have created both. Again, this points towards God being amoral.
rossum

No, God created good, and gave man and the angels the free-will to choose good or not. Evil is simply the absence of good. Just like cold is the absence of heat.

God Bless

 

[rossum]

God is timeless. Every second of existence is “now” for God. He always knew he would create, He knew the Angels would rebel, He knew Adam and Eve would sin, etc., etc.

He can’t “change His mind” b/c God does not experience time.

The He cannot create. He cannot act. He cannot do anything. Acting involves change, so an unchanging God cannot act.

“In the beginning…” If God cannot change, then He can never “begin” to do anything.

rossum

 

[rossum]

If there is anything beyond this material world, then God exists in some form. Someone is deciding where those souls will go in the afterlife; someone is judging right and wrong.

You are assuming an Abrahamic solution. I assume a Dharmic solution: cause and effect. All our actions cause results. There is no god running it, and more than there is a god running gravity. Karma is like gravity, it is part of the universe. We need to work with it.

Gravity is not moral, it does not say “You shall not jump off a tall cliff.” What it does say is, “If you jump off a tall cliff then you will plummet to the bottom.” Karma is the same; it is a series of “If … then …” statements.

Mind precedes all conditions,
mind is their chief, they are mind-made.
If you speak or act with an evil mind then suffering will follow you,
as the wheel follows the draught ox.

Mind precedes all conditions,
mind is their chief, they are mind-made.
If you speak or act with a pure mind then happiness will follow you,
as a shadow that never leaves.

– Dhammapada 1:1-2

rossum

 

[rossum]

No, God created good, and gave man and the angels the free-will to choose good or not. Evil is simply the absence of good. Just like cold is the absence of heat.

If evil is the absence of good, and God created good, then before the beginning of creation all was without good, and hence evil. What does that say about the nature of God who was before creation?

I think you need to re-examine your logic here.

rossum

 

[bilop]

The He cannot create. He cannot act. He cannot do anything. Acting involves change, so an unchanging God cannot act.

“In the beginning…” If God cannot change, then He can never “begin” to do anything.

rossum

Again, you’re taking a human view of things. God can’t change, but he can act on us, on his creation, b/c we experience time.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

**rossum

Since the universe is infinite in time, it has no beginning and hence no need for a cause/builder.**

Is this something you believe, or do you have scientific proof that the universe always existed?